February 25, 20179 yr Personally I would move to a traditional wiring model. HA02a - 1 3 5 7 HA02b - 9 11 13 15 HA02c - 17 19 21 23 HA02d - unused It could be that the interconnections are fighting with each other instead of working side by side.
February 25, 20179 yr 1 minute ago, Mark said: Personally I would move to a traditional wiring model. HA02a - 1 3 5 7 HA02b - 9 11 13 15 HA02c - 17 19 21 23 HA02d - unused It could be that the interconnections are fighting with each other instead of working side by side. Positives and negatives muddled up
February 25, 20179 yr @Chris. Agreed but the wiring must look a nightmare and is... the cells naturally want to settle and balance so I like helping rather than forcing - especially if you are jumping across the bank.. eg: cell 1,2 to 13,14. I'm sure the HA02's are not built to manhandle the various differences. Plus there is high amp loads as well - pulling this out of balance.
February 25, 20179 yr 1 hour ago, Mark said: @Chris. Agreed but the wiring must look a nightmare and is... the cells naturally want to settle and balance so I like helping rather than forcing - especially if you are jumping across the bank.. eg: cell 1,2 to 13,14. I'm sure the HA02's are not built to manhandle the various differences. Plus there is high amp loads as well - pulling this out of balance. HI Mark Chatted to incagarcilaso. We are sorted I think. The balancers are not arranged in the traditional manner but it is due to the physical arrangement of the cells. SuperDIY confirmed that the wire pairs are isolated so it does not matter that balancer A is connected to 1-4 and 21-24. It does mean that you have to concentrate when wiring up the pairs and the Spanish electrician did not get it quite right. I am curious to see whether once connected correctly the balancers can bring these batteries back to a more balanced state. Fortunately batteries go out of balance in late absorb once the Amps are lower but we still talking 40 A or so. Those balancers are going to work that is for sure.
February 25, 20179 yr 9 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said: the Spanish electrician did not get it quite right. I usually get confused with the Chinese English and go off on a tangent and do what I think they were trying to say.
February 25, 20179 yr The Spanish electrician was at a huge disadvantage in that he was trying to do what he thought the Saffas were trying to say - who in turn were getting confused by the Chinese English instructions that come with the balancers. TTT was right not something he should be involved in.
February 25, 20179 yr Author That about sums it up. Far, far too much lost in translation, coupled with far too many wires - if it looks confusing on paper it's much worse here with all of them in front of you, tracing which is which. The battery connections also have a protective tall plastic cylindrical housing around all the M8s, making it very difficult to connect the lugs to them - can't believe I've got to redo it - at least it's only 16 of the 32 connections. Will report on progress.
February 25, 20179 yr 8 minutes ago, incagarcilaso said: can't believe I've got to redo it - at least it's only 16 of the 32 connections. Lol, I know the feeling. Hang in there. It is a once off. You get it right, you never have to do it again.
February 25, 20179 yr 30 minutes ago, SolarNoob said: @Chris Hobson Could you please post the link to this video again please? Thanks Here is the video Ed found I found it informative - pity the author only describes what he is up to ½way through the video.
February 27, 20179 yr Author OK, so with thanks to @Chris Hobson for all his help via Skype the other day, I now think these are wired up correctly. Before making the changes the boxes were getting very hot - I now know why. Now they are not even warm. It seems obvious now that it was totally wrong to have the polarity reversed on some of the connections to the HA02 on some pairs. The complicating factor was that I was working in pairs of cells (because the minimum nominal working voltage for the HA02s is 3.6V), which gave me positives and negatives on both sides of each pair. Unfortunately, 6 days connected incorrectly means that the reverse has happened and the batteries are now even more out of balance - the low voltages are now lower and the high ones higher. On the positive side this would seem to suggest that these HA02s work and have an impact in a short period. The first day of charging correctly today seems to show that they are doing what they should, although they may need some time to bring the imbalance under the 1% mark (currently running at 3.8% mid-point deviation). I have been measuring amp values in the HA02 connection wires today and the most I seem to see is 2.6 A in some while a lot are just around the 1A mark. This seems low but maybe with time this will change. In principal these could have up to 10A flowing through them. @Mark's comment about jumping across the bank with the connection on single HA02s is interesting. I also wondered if this was a good idea. Now I am learning a little more about these HA02s I feel that it may not be an issue to have cells 1-4 and 21-24 hooked up to one box. Another small disadvantage with these HA02s is they don't have any indicators on them at all - not even a single little LED to show when they wind into action out of passive mode. Let's see how it all progresses. One thing is clear - the bank now has to be better than just leaving it out of balance with the mid-point deviation growing steadily. That would have meant an early demise for the bank.
February 27, 20179 yr Always good to see a positive result. 1% not to bad but this will improve. Remember you will see spikes when under high load or high charge but that's normal. Any chance you can upload you data to PVOutput and send us the link? or your EMON site link with the MPV displayed on a graph.
February 27, 20179 yr Yes, @incagarcilaso, thank you for the feedback. I am sure that guys like @Chris Hobson that went out of his way to help would appreciate it. I think now with your balancer's setup is sorted out, your battery balancing would definitely improve over time. 34 minutes ago, Mark said: Always good to see a positive result. It is just a pity that not everyone like incagarcilaso gives feedback. A lot of guys come online and ask for advice, then you never hear from them again.
February 27, 20179 yr Author 46 minutes ago, Mark said: Always good to see a positive result. 1% not to bad but this will improve. Remember you will see spikes when under high load or high charge but that's normal. Any chance you can upload you data to PVOutput and send us the link? or your EMON site link with the MPV displayed on a graph. Yes. The deviation is at 3.8% under high charge and in late absorb, so it is quite bad. I am hoping to get it to under 1%. I'm El Capricho on PVOutput.org. I donate and so have extended data but haven't been able to work out how to configure that. Currently none of the BMV voltages data gets uploaded to pvoutput.org, but if you could point me in the general direction of how to do that I'll happily configure it.
February 27, 20179 yr Hi @incagarcilaso I use SolMon for my PVoutput uploads. It uploads v7 to v12 which are the fields needed for the Extended Data. The data is uploaded in the same string as the other pvo data and once each field is labelled in pvo then it displays as per my pvo extended data. The mappings are as per my request to @Edmund Pohl during his development of SolMon. I'm sure @Manie could add this in ICC. The only change I would make is for the v12 which needs a small decimal shift Be aware: PVO is 5 minute data and so you WILL lose out on seeing spikes in the various bits of data. So PVO is not a great monitoring tool for detailed analysis.
February 28, 20179 yr 11 hours ago, incagarcilaso said: Yes. The deviation is at 3.8% under high charge and in late absorb, so it is quite bad. I am hoping to get it to under 1%. It is going to take weeks if not months to get your batteries into shape, The first clues that the HA02s are working properly is that your deviation's peak will be smaller and the time spent above 1% will be less. You may be disappointed at first but be patient.
February 28, 20179 yr I'm planning to install my 2xHA02's on my Battery Bank this weekend, (Saturday morning). Thanks to Chris-R for the supply thereof. My bank is almost 3 months old, and normally see a midpoint delta on the BMV of 0.01V, with a max of 0.03V, which is very low (i hope). Nevertheless, for longevity, I'm installing the HA02's regardless, a small insurance to pay. I will use the opportunity to inspect the condition of the bus bars connection points to the battery, and clean, if required. I have not been hammering my bank, (Return to Grid @88 SOC%), but last weeks persistent rain & cloud cover meant the bank spent a lot of time at the lower limits, barely recovering overnight on Grid charge (2A) when I unticked the setting to change to Grid manually during the day.
February 28, 20179 yr 17 minutes ago, Sidewinder said: My bank is almost 3 months old, and normally see a midpoint delta on the BMV of 0.01V, with a max of 0.03V, which is very low (i hope). That is low - no problems there.
February 28, 20179 yr 2 hours ago, Sidewinder said: ... weeks persistent rain & cloud cover meant the bank spent a lot of time at the lower limits, barely recovering overnight on Grid charge (2A) when I unticked the setting to change to Grid manually during the day. I am of the opinion that we are nursing the banks too much. Paul had a chat to forklift operators and they confirmed that the bank will last X years, whether you use it or not. Now forklift operators pay a lot for batteries and they need every ounce out of them. What off-gridders do is they ensure the bank is charged fully at least once a week, and they also use 6v and 12v batteries. I am of the opinion that if a bank goes to 50% now and then, that it is actually good in that the juices are thoroughly stirred. Also a big fan of equalizing although AGM and sealed banks are not good with that. So on my 225ah 24v bank, I really don't worry as long as it is at LEAST 100% once a week although I prefer 80% and system is set for and balanced at 80%. Stir the juices say I. Don't mollycoddle batts too much for the tech is not new, yet they will not last forever. And as some has learned / experienced / no-one told you, you now know that your bank is finite, the batts are not really for solar so knowing there are better banks, save up for the new bank and get as much ROI out of the existing bank as you can, then get that new better set. And if you are really dreading the battery replacement costs, unless you rely on a gennie, Eskom is by far and will be for much longer cheaper than batteries seeing we are looking at a wot 2%(?) increase this year. So use them wisely and plan the next system to work without batteries as the cost of replacement could be more suitable for a new grid tied inverter or some such. Your money, your call but don't think your batteries will last 10+ years. You are gong to replace them rather later than sooner yes, but don't replace them unused or have to replace them all gummed up inside due to not being used. Just putting it out there.
February 28, 20179 yr Author 31 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said: I am of the opinion that we are nursing the banks too much. Stir the juices say I. Don't mollycoddle batts too much for the tech is not new, yet they will not last forever. I see what you are saying but this is more about discharge percentages and full charge frequency than balancing. I agree with you that occasional deep discharges do no harm (although this depends on the battery technology type to some extent) and can even be beneficial in some cases. The problem with batteries being out of balance (especially of the 2V type where you have 24 elements) is that some in fact never ever fully charge even though you think your bank has fully charged. When you talk about having a full charge at least once a week, you may see that the "bank" gets to 100% but if the individual cells are out of balance then what is actually happening is that some are over charging (all the time) and some never fully charge (stay at effectively 80%). When this happens they are not going to last very long. In my case, I have 2 cells that are way out of balance from the rest and when the bank shows 100% charged and floating at 54V, these two are only charged at 2.07V (75%) rather than at 2.25V so they never fully charge and others are at 2.62V to compensate, which means they are way overcharged and floating far too high all day every day. This also means that as soon as the bank has to assume any load it falls straight down to 48.5V from 54V floating because of those poor cells and so they provide you with less power for less time. The bank readings only really give you a part of the story - the individual cell voltages will affect the life of the batteries as well as the amount of power they can give you each day when in discharge. I think balancing is crucial.
February 28, 20179 yr Cannot agree more @incagarcilaso . I just put it out there for I have an idea that if a bank is working a little bit harder, that the imbalance may be less over time, or more pointing to problem batteries. T&C apply and all that obviously. And then take equalization, that sorts another set of issue out. Bottom line, there are many arrows in our quivers to understand how to use best, as we need and see fit, and balancing is one of them, as is using the bank and if you can, equalization, keeping the environment temp acceptable and handling the gasses wisely. Balancing on my bank is not an issue for I swap the batts every few months, not that it is a solution for you. Also looking at getting a auto feeder as a last addition - maybe, for that is the only thing that scares me if I forget for a month or more can go by that I don't even touch the system.
February 28, 20179 yr 27 minutes ago, incagarcilaso said: I think balancing is crucial. I cannot agree more. 28 minutes ago, incagarcilaso said: I have 2 cells that are way out of balance from the rest and when the bank shows 100% charged and floating at 54V, these two are only charged at 2.07V (75%) rather than at 2.25V so they never fully charge and others are at 2.62V to compensate Can you not take them out and charge them individually with an old fashioned charger without any fancy processors?
February 28, 20179 yr 23 minutes ago, incagarcilaso said: The problem with batteries being out of balance (especially of the 2V type where you have 24 elements) A 48 V system composed of 2V cells and one made up of 12V batteries are essentially the same. 2V cells have a huge advantage in that one knows what is going on with each cell. A 12 V battery is composed if six 2V cells conveniently packaged and permanently wired together. So where Incagarcilaso (de la Vega?) can identify exactly what is going wrong - it is a bit of a guessing game with 12V batteries. Once things really go wrong it is no longer a guessing game for 12V owners but it is also too late to do anything about it.
February 28, 20179 yr 32 minutes ago, incagarcilaso said: I have 2 cells that are way out of balance from the rest and when the bank shows 100% charged and floating at 54V, these two are only charged at 2.07V (75%) rather than at 2.25V so they never fully charge and others are at 2.62V to compensate, which means they are way overcharged and floating far too high all day every day. This also means that as soon as the bank has to assume any load it falls straight down to 48.5V from 54V floating because of those poor cells and so they provide you with less power for less time. What are the chances that those cells are problematic? Large battery banks are not new either, and as Chris say, you can pinpoint the problems much quicker. And as Don says, not sure where you can get a 2v charger though, take them out and give them some TLC or take them back to supplier for assessment?
February 28, 20179 yr Author 2 minutes ago, Don said: Can you not take them out and charge them individually with an old fashioned charger without any fancy processors? That's an idea. Not sure if any one else has tried this? It certainly may bring them back more in line with the rest and then the slower HA02s can continue to bring them into line. I'm not sure exactly how this works - I suppose it depends on exactly whey they are so low. It may be that after doing this and returning them to the bank they still struggle to reach the same levels as the rest of the cells in the bank?
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