Hi everyone,

Just joined the forum. So I have the following I need to be powered :

55" LED TV, AV receiver, subwoofer, router, notebook, PC, fridge and LED lights in 2 rooms and a bathroom. If I go into the specs of each item and look at the max power and add everything up it would amount to +- 2000 watts max. Now there is no way I'll ever come close to 2000 watts. I reckon I won't even come close to 1000 watts. My PC won't ever be on when I'm using my laptop and my sound system, which accounts for most of the power draw, won't be used concurrently with everything else, so power demands should be much, much lower than what the total max is.

However the important question is, what is my average consumption? Or peak consumption? I have absolutely no idea.

How does one measure their average/max consumption in real time? In order to spec a system that can comfortably power my equipment for 4 hours+ I would need to know what the consumption is, but I don't know apart from adding up max power which tells us nothing in reality. If anyone can give advice on this it would be greatly appreciated as I don't want to spec a system that is grossly overkill (some overkill is good for reserve, but it can quickly get out of hand) for my needs.

My apartment is owned by me, so I was thinking of an inverter wired into the DB with lithium iron batteries (or battery) and not a trolley system.

 

Edited January 17, 20233 yr by Olorin

You'll need to split the DB into essential (backed up) and non-essential loads. Typically one doesn't back up the geyser and stove and other big loads. 

That 2kw limit is easily reached in the kitchen. Simultaneous use of a kettle and a microwave will do it. Plug ins are your enemy! Think of a hair dryer (an AIR fryer will get you a lot of the way). 

So there's an aspect of management. We all have that. Turn on too many things and you'll hit 2kw (not even 10a) with ease. 

As regards the peak load. Add up the stated wattage of everything you do want backed up. Triple the wattage for the fridge which will use a lot for a short while when the engine starts. Do that and you're catering for an extreme but not impossible load in your home. 

Average load, take your electricity bills, average them out for a few months. Then reduce that monthly figure to days and then hours. That's crude, but useful. 

Post those two figures, then there's a chat to be had over sizing of inverter and battery. 

If the figures surprise you then they are what they are. 

Think about a budget too, and then how far you could stretch to get something really super duper. 

1 hour ago, Bobster. said:

You'll need to split the DB into essential (backed up) and non-essential loads. Typically one doesn't back up the geyser and stove and other big loads. 

That 2kw limit is easily reached in the kitchen. Simultaneous use of a kettle and a microwave will do it. Plug ins are your enemy! Think of a hair dryer (an AIR fryer will get you a lot of the way). 

So there's an aspect of management. We all have that. Turn on too many things and you'll hit 2kw (not even 10a) with ease. 

As regards the peak load. Add up the stated wattage of everything you do want backed up. Triple the wattage for the fridge which will use a lot for a short while when the engine starts. Do that and you're catering for an extreme but not impossible load in your home. 

Average load, take your electricity bills, average them out for a few months. Then reduce that monthly figure to days and then hours. That's crude, but useful. 

Post those two figures, then there's a chat to be had over sizing of inverter and battery. 

If the figures surprise you then they are what they are. 

Think about a budget too, and then how far you could stretch to get something really super duper. 

As you have a clear indication of what you will be using on back up and they are all fed from sockets just Google Kill a watt and buy the gadget and monitor what each unit uses over your own custom time. Once you know the power used dot down the time each will be used. If you have that the size of the system can be calculated. 

We know when on LS to use things sparingly due to battery limitation. Our house is few from a small 2.4kw inverter and we don't trip it. This is called managing your load.

I see geewiz sell a digital watt meter :

https://www.geewiz.co.za/gadgets/43656-digital-watt-meter-kill-a-watt-measure-your-electricity-usage.html

Would this gadget tell me how much power I use if I use my surround sound system while my fridge is working etc?

So I've been quoted on two systems , one is 2 x 100 AH Hubble 12V batteries with a Axpert model 3KVA inverter. Installed, my electrician tells me +- R25000. But someone else said I should get 1 x 100 AH 24V battery, same price with a 3KVA inverter.

So what is the pro/con with going for 2 x 12V vs 1 x 24V battery if they are both 100AH?

13 minutes ago, Olorin said:

So what is the pro/con with going for 2 x 12V vs 1 x 24V battery if they are both 100AH?

The storage capacity is identical if you go for 2 x 12V 100Ah batteries compared to single 24V 100Ah battery. - 2.4kWh in each case.

You might be able to get more for less if you buy that storage capacity wrapped up in a single big battery, as opposed to buying two in smaller package sizes, and save on wiring.

 

Other than that, for the price of two - around R16,000 - you are entering more "serious" territory where you could start considering more high-end wall-mounted or rack-mounted 24V batteries like the Hubble AM4 or Pylontech UP2500, that have a cycle life of two to four times more cycles.

28 minutes ago, GreenFields said:

The storage capacity is identical if you go for 2 x 12V 100Ah batteries compared to single 24V 100Ah battery. - 2.4kWh in each case.

You might be able to get more for less if you buy that storage capacity wrapped up in a single big battery, as opposed to buying two in smaller package sizes, and save on wiring.

 

Other than that, for the price of two - around R16,000 - you are entering more "serious" territory where you could start considering more high-end wall-mounted or rack-mounted 24V batteries like the Hubble AM4 or Pylontech UP2500, that have a cycle life of two to four times more cycles.

I don't understand. The AM4 and Pylontech have a cycle life of two to four times more than the 2 x 12V 100Ah batteries? So it will last a lot longer? The thing is, I don't want to go totally overboard with my requirements. Most people have told me that a 3KVA with 2 100AH lithium batteries will more than take care of my needs for 4 hours+ based on the gear I have in my apartment.

I have a small apartment. Using a battery like the UP2500 is probably more for larger households with stronger demands. I'm just running a set up with an AVR, subwoofer, TV, Laptop, PC, fridge and some LED lights. My power usage is going to be fairly low given that I'm not going to use my PC or laptop generally when I'm using my surround sound system which will probably use the bulk of the power.

Sorry just to add, I saw the price of a Pylontech UP2500 and it's like R23000 just for the battery. Then I still need a 3KVA inverter and installation with all accessories etc. So it's quite a large jump in price over 2 x Hubble 100AH 12V batteries.

adjust your lifestyle around the available energy that you decide on.  Forsake some conveniences during LS and the 2 X 100Ah batteries will suffice.
If you wish to continue using the "nice to have" utilities, then unfortunately you will have to fork out double or more on storage capacity.

On 2023/01/18 at 6:40 AM, Scorp007 said:

We know when on LS to use things sparingly due to battery limitation.

Scorp made a bold statement which holds true for anyone without an unlimited budget

6 minutes ago, zsde said:

adjust your lifestyle around the available energy that you decide on.  Forsake some conveniences during LS and the 2 X 100Ah batteries will suffice.
If you wish to continue using the "nice to have" utilities, then unfortunately you will have to fork out double or more on storage capacity.

Scorp made a bold statement which holds true for anyone without an unlimited budget

If I ever want to add additional capacity I could just add another 2 x 100AH batteries at a later stage right?

1 minute ago, Olorin said:

I don't understand. The AM4 and Pylontech have a cycle life of two to four times more than the 2 x 12V 100Ah batteries? So it will last a lot longer? The thing is, I don't want to go totally overboard with my requirements. Most people have told me that a 3KVA with 2 100AH lithium batteries will more than take care of my needs for 4 hours+ based on the gear I have in my apartment.

I have a small apartment. Using a battery like the UP2500 is probably more for larger households with stronger demands. I'm just running a set up with an AVR, subwoofer, TV, Laptop, PC, fridge and some LED lights. My power usage is going to be fairly low given that I'm not going to use my PC or laptop generally when I'm using my surround sound system which will probably use the bulk of the power.

 

You will be able to add more storage capacity later if you want, but that's not my point. Either one of these options, whether it's 2 x 12V batteries, or one 24V battery at 100Ah, is exactly the same amount of storage.

When I'm talking about the cycle life, I'm not speaking about the storage capacity or running for 4 hours at a time. I'm talking about discharging and re-charging the batteries many more times over before they are dead and need to be replaced.

The Pylontech might not be the the right option, although it would last 4 times as long in cycles. The AM4 might be closer to the cost of two S120's. Or something like this Ecko if you can find stock: https://www.takealot.com/24v-lithium-battery/PLID91406228

Whatever you choose, I do think it's worth at least researching the options of a single 24V battery.

9 minutes ago, GreenFields said:

 

You will be able to add more storage capacity later if you want, but that's not my point. Either one of these options, whether it's 2 x 12V batteries, or one 24V battery at 100Ah, is exactly the same amount of storage.

When I'm talking about the cycle life, I'm not speaking about the storage capacity or running for 4 hours at a time. I'm talking about discharging and re-charging the batteries many more times over before they are dead and need to be replaced.

The Pylontech might not be the the right option, although it would last 4 times as long in cycles. The AM4 might be closer to the cost of two S120's. Or something like this Ecko if you can find stock: https://www.takealot.com/24v-lithium-battery/PLID91406228

Whatever you choose, I do think it's worth at least researching the options of a single 24V battery.

I appreciate your advice. I don't know how many cycles the Hubble 12V 100Ah batteries are.... right now R25K is really pushing my budget to the max. Problem is, stock is a problem as it is and if I wait and save up I'll probably pay more as prices will increase further.

Some companies are pushing R45-50K systems on me without installation and I just don't have that kind of money and for someone who lives alone, in a small 2 bed apartment, I just don't see the point.

Edited January 20, 20233 yr by Olorin

1 hour ago, Olorin said:

I appreciate your advice. I don't know how many cycles the Hubble 12V 100Ah batteries are.... right now R25K is really pushing my budget to the max. Problem is, stock is a problem as it is and if I wait and save up I'll probably pay more as prices will increase further.

Some companies are pushing R45-50K systems on me without installation and I just don't have that kind of money and for someone who lives alone, in a small 2 bed apartment, I just don't see the point.

A year and 2 months on after I got 2x S-100 for my 3kVA Axpert 24V clone and they are performing very well. I have to say I got my S-100 nearly at half the current going rate for the S-120.

The S-100 / S-120 use 2nd life so their cycles are estimates less that a 24V with new cells. 

Edited January 20, 20233 yr by Scorp007

Can you explain what 2nd life means?  Is one cycle depleting charge from full to 0? 

Edited January 20, 20233 yr by Olorin

8 hours ago, Olorin said:

Can you explain what 2nd life means?  Is one cycle depleting charge from full to 0? 

2nd life cells are essentially second-hand cells, used previously in a different application for which they are no longer suitable, but they still have useful life left so they are re-packed into other forms and sold again.

Yes, in principle one cycle is depleting the charge from full to empty, but some batteries will have a spec saying you can discharge only 80% or 90% of the capacity, and you can repeat the charge/discharge cycle "x" amount of times.

Thanks guys for the advice. So the next question - do you guys know of any electricians or installers that will do the work (in the northern suburbs, Cape Town) if you supply own inverter and battery (or batteries)? Some guys I've spoken to are hesitant to do the work if they don't know or are unfamiliar with products they don't supply but if I were to supply the items myself I'll probably save a good few thousand rand. I'm not opposed to using the installer to provide everything, but if they don't have stock and I can source stock from a different supplier then I have to go that route.

Edited January 21, 20233 yr by Olorin

15 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

A year and 2 months on after I got 2x S-100 for my 3kVA Axpert 24V clone and they are performing very well. I have to say I got my S-100 nearly at half the current going rate for the S-120.

The S-100 / S-120 use 2nd life so their cycles are estimates less that a 24V with new cells. 

According to Geewiz website the S-100 12V batteries are 1st life batteries, not 2nd life.

https://www.geewiz.co.za/lithium-ion-batteries/153798-hubble-s-100a-12kwh-12v-100ah-lithium-ion-lifepo4-battery-first-life-cells.html?sfdr_ptcid=2961_617_674575116&sfdr_hash=e2ef7a010818e0e64c6de192ae95bf8e&gclid=Cj0KCQiAt66eBhCnARIsAKf3ZNGnHZhYQARuf8HrC_JPYJb3tApjKV-eZ6TIe_xyPKmN9oATyiW9DzcaAgbkEALw_wcB

24 minutes ago, Olorin said:

According to Geewiz website the S-100 12V batteries are 1st life batteries, not 2nd life.

https://www.geewiz.co.za/lithium-ion-batteries/153798-hubble-s-100a-12kwh-12v-100ah-lithium-ion-lifepo4-battery-first-life-cells.html?sfdr_ptcid=2961_617_674575116&sfdr_hash=e2ef7a010818e0e64c6de192ae95bf8e&gclid=Cj0KCQiAt66eBhCnARIsAKf3ZNGnHZhYQARuf8HrC_JPYJb3tApjKV-eZ6TIe_xyPKmN9oATyiW9DzcaAgbkEALw_wcB

Don't belief everything you read on a sellers Web. If you pointed it out and they edit it it could have been a simple mistake. 

Hubble as well as their approved sellers could be a better source. 

The S-Series is 2nd life. https://www.hubblelithium.co.za/s-series

Also consider that the S-100 was discontinued about 1 year ago, these days there are only S-120 and S-200 available. It was a hugely popular battery, so it is very hard to believe that someone was keeping a few hundred on a shelf somewhere, because unlike good wine, lithium batteries deteriorate.

So you gave to ask yourself the question: Why would someone willfully advertise a battery today that was discontinued so long ago, and that they know that they cannot deliver? Think about it, follow the money.

Edited January 21, 20233 yr by YellowTapemeasure

21 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

A year and 2 months on after I got 2x S-100 for my 3kVA Axpert 24V clone and they are performing very well. I have to say I got my S-100 nearly at half the current going rate for the S-120.

The S-100 / S-120 use 2nd life so their cycles are estimates less that a 24V with new cells. 

It's an excellent battery, very versatile too. I use two with a Mecer 1440K inverter for gate motors, lights and cameras of an estate.

24 minutes ago, YellowTapemeasure said:

The S-Series is 2nd life. https://www.hubblelithium.co.za/s-series

Also consider that the S-100 was discontinued about 1 year ago, these days there are only S-120 and S-200 available. It was a hugely popular battery, so it is very hard to believe that someone was keeping a few hundred on a shelf somewhere, because unlike good wine, lithium batteries deteriorate.

So you gave to ask yourself the question: Why would someone willfully advertise a battery today that was discontinued so long ago, and that they know that they cannot deliver? Think about it, follow the money.

I'm clearly too stupid to understand. I've emailed Geewiz. They need to amend the specs on their website otherwise they are misleading people. 

I just checked on their website and their S120 batteries are like basically the same price as the S100.  Seems like a no brainer until it says not suitable for 48v operation so i can only use 2 in series. If I want to expand to 4 batteries then I'm screwed? 

 

They say first life cells on the S120. 

Edit : on hubble website also says 2nd life cells. Geewiz has inaccurate or just plain misleading info on their website! 

Edited January 21, 20233 yr by Olorin

38 minutes ago, Olorin said:

I just checked on their website and their S120 batteries are like basically the same price as the S100.  Seems like a no brainer until it says not suitable for 48v operation so i can only use 2 in series. If I want to expand to 4 batteries then I'm screwed? 

 

They say first life cells on the S120. 

Edit : on hubble website also says 2nd life cells. Geewiz has inaccurate or just plain misleading info on their website! 

As per S-120 pamphlet https://www.hubblelithium.co.za/_files/ugd/49fdd5_47945814ec224e25b626b1a8ca6de9c5.pdf , they can do up to 48V in series (so four maximum). Or a maximum of 4 in parallel for 480Ah @12V. These are mutually exclusive configurations, what the S-100 could do (theoretically) was both 4 in parallel and series at the same time, this is not possible with the S-120.  

You will need a battery balancer for two in series. Give Powerforumstore a call, they can assist you with this kind of information, and I also heard on the forum that they have a batch of Hubble / Halo S-120s on the way.

Edited January 21, 20233 yr by YellowTapemeasure

Thanks I'll give Power Forum store a call on Monday. I have so many things going through my mind right now with batteries and inverters and I'm undecided yet on what my configuration will be. I was kinda set on the S-100 batteries, but now the S-120 seems better at no additional cost. Inverter still 3KVA, Axpert variant, they're all the same basically so it shouldn't matter which one I go for (I assume).

However I was looking at batteries a little earlier today and came across the Hubble AM-4 which is a much more serious battery - it's on special promotion at LEC Energy for just under R20000. So about R4000 more than 2 x S-120 batteries. S-120 batteries claim 2000 cycles at 1C - not sure what that means. The AM-4 is 1st life, they claim 6000 cycles at 50% DOC and 3000 cycles at 100% DOC and a much better warranty.

 Decisions, decisions. In this game I guess you can always get something better if you just spend a few thousand extra here or there.

Edited January 21, 20233 yr by Olorin

About six months ago when there were no S-120 in stock there were a number of seller that had stock of the S-100. I belief there are some still being sold. In my case I tested capacity at 114Ah when I bought them and I got the same capacity about 8 months later.