February 4, 201610 yr Check if the inverter neutral and eskom neutral are not shared. Each db must have it's own neutral connected to its own neutral bar Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
February 4, 201610 yr Hi Janet, I have the same issue when running the inverter with resistive loads, like when using an iron or when the dishwasher or washing machine is running and starts to heat the water. Dishwashers and washing machines have motors, therefore the load is inductive. My recommendation: Inverter as a UPS, i.e. computers, TV, HiFi and lights. No earth leakage feeding Inverter, bond inverter neutral output to earth, red dedicated plugs (no earth leakage necessary), Inverter feeding appliances: No earth leakage feeding Inverter, bond Inverter neutral output to earth, earth leakage feeding circuits.
February 4, 201610 yr It could be your firmware version. 52.30 is very picky about line quality; many users can't get it to switch to a generator at all. I haven't heard it not connecting to mains; perhaps your mains is particularly noisy. Updating to firmware 72.40 fixes the pickiness. What firmware are you running? Watchpower will tell you, or the U1 display on your LCD (keep pressing up or down buttons till U1 comes up). If you already have 72.40, and this still happens with program 3 set to APL, then it sounds like you might need a mains filter. Or get Eskom to fix their power quality issue. Maybe there is a high voltage insulator that has broken down nearby. You can chase these with an AM radio tuned off station. Drive around near HV power lines listening for a raspy hum.
February 5, 201610 yr @eugene Thanks. Just to add to what your reply the dishwasher / washing machine in my case tend to run without problem, until they reach the point where they heat water, and if the battery and pv cannot sustain the high load, probably around 2.5kva in total, for around 5mins to heat the water the inverter appears to switch back, while still heating, and then usually the power will trip. I have to change my wiring like you suggested to resolve this, as it appears to not be an overload issue, but a sudden change on earth in milliamperes, that causes earth to trip, as the inverter keeps running, but then starts whining about low battery, and will eventually shutdown.
February 5, 201610 yr It could be your firmware version. 52.30 is very picky about line quality; many users can't get it to switch to a generator at all. I haven't heard it not connecting to mains; perhaps your mains is particularly noisy. Updating to firmware 72.40 fixes the pickiness. What firmware are you running? Watchpower will tell you, or the U1 display on your LCD (keep pressing up or down buttons till U1 comes up). If you already have 72.40, and this still happens with program 3 set to APL, then it sounds like you might need a mains filter. Or get Eskom to fix their power quality issue. Maybe there is a high voltage insulator that has broken down nearby. You can chase these with an AM radio tuned off station. Drive around near HV power lines listening for a raspy hum. My firmware version is 72.40. I however notice a further that when my inverter is in LINE mode my input and output voltage is 230v with 50Hv frequency, this is only achieved when the inverter is BYPASSED, but when the inverter is in BATTERY mode my input as wel as output voltage remain at 230V but the frequency go down to 40Hz. This may point to the problem, I don't know. Thanks to everybody suggesting possible causes and corrections. I try all of them.
February 5, 201610 yr Check if the inverter neutral and eskom neutral are not shared. Each db must have it's own neutral connected to its own neutral bar Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk Thanks. I wil ask my installer ta check that as soon as I get hold of him.
February 5, 201610 yr My firmware version is 72.40. I however notice a further that when my inverter is in LINE mode my input and output voltage is 230v with 50Hv frequency, this is only achieved when the inverter is BYPASSED, but when the inverter is in BATTERY mode my input as wel as output voltage remain at 230V but the frequency go down to 40Hz. This may point to the problem, I don't know. Thanks to everybody suggesting possible causes and corrections. I try all of them. Definitely an issue if it indeed puts out 40Hz. The versions we have in ZA is supposed to all be set to a standard 50Hz input and output. This could play havoc with all sorts of things - from Earth Leakages to device power supplies.
February 5, 201610 yr I however notice a further that when my inverter is in LINE mode my input and output voltage is 230v with 50Hv frequency, this is only achieved when the inverter is BYPASSED, but when the inverter is in BATTERY mode my input as well as output voltage remain at 230V but the frequency go down to 40Hz. This may point to the problem, I don't know. Thanks to everybody suggesting possible causes and corrections. I try all of them. That's seriously weird, Janet. When you say in line mode the voltage is 230 V, do you mean exactly 230 all the time, or varying 228-233 depending on the time of day and so on? And your AC input is connected to Eskom, not a generator, right? I can't begin to imagine why you would ever see 40 Hz on the AC output, when in battery mode. But maybe you only mean on the AC input? If the inverter really is measuring 40 Hz on its own output, it's got to be faulty. Either it's generating 50 Hz and measuring it wrong, or it's generating 40 Hz and it should not ever be. Edit: Re-reading older posts on this, I'm suspecting a poor connection from the battery to the inverter. Are the cables to the battery as thick as your little finger? If not, they are too thin and this could explain a lot of problems. Perhaps you could upload a photo of the battery wiring? If the cables are thick enough, perhaps there is a loose connection in one of the battery straps. Be very careful checking for tightness; batteries don't have off switches, and it's so easy to make a splat with metallic tools. So perhaps something to suggest to your electrician. I suppose the battery could simply be very flat. Has it had a good solar or mains charge as yet? A flat battery has a higher internal resistance, meaning that its voltage will collapse quickly under load. Don't necessarily believe the Axpert's state of charge meter (the bars inside the battery symbol), especially if the system hasn't been on for a while. It sounds like the inverter is resetting a lot because the battery voltage is collapsing, so it won't know much about the battery state of charge. When you first turn the inverter on, what's the battery voltage? I assume it's lead acid.
February 5, 201610 yr You can try jdp software to check al the faults on the inverter. If you set up your email adress the program it will alert you with the fault. Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
February 5, 201610 yr That's seriously weird, Janet. When you say in line mode the voltage is 230 V, do you mean exactly 230 all the time, or varying 228-233 depending on the time of day and so on? And your AC input is connected to Eskom, not a generator, right? I can't begin to imagine why you would ever see 40 Hz on the AC output, when in battery mode. But maybe you only mean on the AC input? If the inverter really is measuring 40 Hz on its own output, it's got to be faulty. Either it's generating 50 Hz and measuring it wrong, or it's generating 40 Hz and it should not ever be. Edit: Re-reading older posts on this, I'm suspecting a poor connection from the battery to the inverter. Are the cables to the battery as thick as your little finger? If not, they are too thin and this could explain a lot of problems. Perhaps you could upload a photo of the battery wiring? If the cables are thick enough, perhaps there is a loose connection in one of the battery straps. Be very careful checking for tightness; batteries don't have off switches, and it's so easy to make a splat with metallic tools. So perhaps something to suggest to your electrician. I suppose the battery could simply be very flat. Has it had a good solar or mains charge as yet? A flat battery has a higher internal resistance, meaning that its voltage will collapse quickly under load. Don't necessarily believe the Axpert's state of charge meter (the bars inside the battery symbol), especially if the system hasn't been on for a while. It sounds like the inverter is resetting a lot because the battery voltage is collapsing, so it won't know much about the battery state of charge. When you first turn the inverter on, what's the battery voltage? I assume it's lead acid. I have attach the data file from WatchPower to show the various readings. History_datas.pdf. I measured the battery wire thickness at 10-11mm and I am using AGM batteries. It seems to me that the output frequency is lower than 50hz because motors such as my garage door is running slower, if my thought process is correct. You will see from the data that the mains exist but the unit remain in battery mode, except when I manually bypass the inverter. I do not use a generator. The trouble shooting guide in the user manual indicate that the AC wires may be too thin or too long, I measure its thickness at 6.3mm.
February 5, 201610 yr You have to check what err the inverter give, Check if you get any fault from the inverter bit Warning Description a0 Reserved a1 Inverter fault Fault a2 Bus Over Fault a3 Bus Under Fault a4 Bus Soft Fail Fault a5 LINE_FAIL Warning a6 OPVShort Warning a7 Inverter voltage too low Fault a8 Inverter voltage too high Fault a9 Over temperature Compile with a1, if a1=1,fault, otherwise warning a10 Fan locked Compile with a1, if a1=1,fault, otherwise warning a11 Battery voltage high Compile with a1, if a1=1,fault, otherwise warning a12 Battery low alarm Warning 7 a13 Reserved a14 Battery under shutdown Warning a15 Reserved Warning a16 Over load Compile with a1, if a1=1,fault, otherwise warning a17 Eeprom fault Warning a18 Inverter Over Current Fault a19 Inverter Soft Fail Fault a20 Self Test Fail Fault a21 OP DC Voltage Over Fault a22 Bat Open Fault a23 Current Sensor Fail Fault a24 Battery Short Fault a25 Power limit Warning a26 PV voltage high Warning a27 MPPT overload fault Warning a28 MPPT overload warning Warning a29 Battery too low to charge Warning a30 Reserved a31 Reserved 2.10 QDI<
February 5, 201610 yr You have to check what err the inverter give, Check if you get any fault from the inverter bit Warning Description a0 Reserved a1 Inverter fault Fault a2 Bus Over Fault a3 Bus Under Fault a4 Bus Soft Fail Fault a5 LINE_FAIL Warning a6 OPVShort Warning a7 Inverter voltage too low Fault a8 Inverter voltage too high Fault a9 Over temperature Compile with a1, if a1=1,fault, otherwise warning a10 Fan locked Compile with a1, if a1=1,fault, otherwise warning a11 Battery voltage high Compile with a1, if a1=1,fault, otherwise warning a12 Battery low alarm Warning 7 a13 Reserved a14 Battery under shutdown Warning a15 Reserved Warning a16 Over load Compile with a1, if a1=1,fault, otherwise warning a17 Eeprom fault Warning a18 Inverter Over Current Fault a19 Inverter Soft Fail Fault a20 Self Test Fail Fault a21 OP DC Voltage Over Fault a22 Bat Open Fault a23 Current Sensor Fail Fault a24 Battery Short Fault a25 Power limit Warning a26 PV voltage high Warning a27 MPPT overload fault Warning a28 MPPT overload warning Warning a29 Battery too low to charge Warning a30 Reserved a31 Reserved 2.10 QDI< The inverter give a a5 LINE_FAIL Warning. This happen every time the inverter try to change over to line (Eskom) when the return to line when the setting 12 return to line voltage is reached.
February 5, 201610 yr I don't know if it would help If you still have the old firmware , to go back to the old firmware and check what is the behavior of the inverter, if it does the same then flush it to 72.40 again. Sometimes the firmware get corrupted during the flushing / upgrade
February 6, 201610 yr I have attach the data file from WatchPower to show the various readings. History_datas.pdf. That helps a lot, thanks Janet. I measured the battery wire thickness at 10-11mm and I am using AGM batteries. That sounds about right for 35 mm^2 cable. Unless it's mostly insulation. It seems to me that the output frequency is lower than 50hz because motors such as my garage door is running slower, if my thought process is correct. Yes, most AC motors run at a speed that is close to proportional to the AC frequency. So for 40 Hz, you'd expect about 80% of normal speed. You will see from the data that the mains exist but the unit remain in battery mode, except when I manually bypass the inverter. Oh, So the line mode changes are not automatic, they are something you are forcing? How exactly are you forcing line mode (bypassing the inverter)? The trouble shooting guide in the user manual indicate that the AC wires may be too thin or too long, I measure its thickness at 6.3mm. Again, unless these are "trick" cables that are mostly plastic and little copper, that seems fine; sounds like at least 10 mm^2 to me. What I find troubling is the voltage rise with charging. For example, near the top of the data (latest data on top), right after the 16 A charge stops, the battery voltage rises 1.8 V. That indicates an internal resistance of 0.113 ohms. That might sound small, but if you were discharging at 100 A (that's less than 5000 W), that would be a voltage droop of 11.3 V, which would be enough to cause the inverter to drop out. Similarly, near the end, a charge of 25 A causes a battery voltage to rise (over 2 minutes) by 2.0 V. This indicates 0.08 ohms, which is better, but still more than I would like to see. Do others with AGM batteries see these sorts of dips and rises with relatively low charge currents of 16 and 25 A? If not, it could be a bad connection somewhere in the battery cables. There will be at least 5 such cables, so 10 lugs to check (assuming a single string of 4 12 V modules). Do you have access to a non contact thermometer? These look vaguely like a very short hand gun; you point it somewhere and it reads the temperature digitally. You could use such a device to see if there is more warming at one battery connection compared to the others. I would expect to see less than about 2C rise over ambient at any battery cable connection. This may explain your "dipping" observation, where the inverter tries to power a large load or something, and has the voltage collapse by 11 V say; this could cause the processor to lose power so it would appear to turn off, the battery voltage would recover within a fraction of a second, and the inverter would start up again. Another possibility: the battery is too small or too old or both. At least a 200 Ah battery is suggested for the 5 kVA Axpert. Unfortunately, the above in no way explains the 40 Hz frequency readings. At first, I thought the processor must be running fast or slow. So maybe it might be running at 120 MHz or 80 MHz instead of the correct 100 MHz. But the same clock that generates the 50 Hz output also times its own output, So actually, if this was happening, the mains would read fast or slow, but the inverter would always read its own output as correct. Ah! But it reads the mains as the wrong frequency when in battery mode as well. So it sounds like it is running at about 80 MHz when in battery mode, but 100 MHz when in line mode. I'll have to think about how that might happen. Oh, on reflection, the processor would have to be running slow to generate the 40 Hz, but a slow processor would read 50 Hz from the mains as 62.5 Hz. So I think that blows that theory. I don't know if it would help If you still have the old firmware , to go back to the old firmware and check what is the behavior of the inverter, if it does the same then flush it to 72.40 again. Sometimes the firmware get corrupted during the flushing / upgrade Even if you don't have old or new firmware files, you can download them here: http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=4332&PID=59274&title=pip4048ms-inverter#59274. However, note that reflashing firmware is a moderately complex task; you might want to get help with this if you decide to attempt it. My apologies if I'm just being sexist here. Manie's idea has some merit, although there are checksums, and there is a "flash flag" value that is programmed absolute last. If that value isn't correct, the program will not run, and will instead attempt to re-run the flash update process. So I'd consider this a last resort at this stage. I'm leaning towards a faulty machine at this point. I believe from another post that this machine had a 09 (bus soft start) error in the past, and had to be sent back to the manufacturer or distributor for repair, and the main board was replaced... is that correct? Is it possible that they repaired the original board, and only gave it a superficial test before returning it? In my experience, error 09 means a fairly catastrophic failure of the MOSFETs and possibly other components (including charring, and blowing legs off transistors). Like this in fact: The circled MOSFET has had its third leg blown off. If that's what happened to your board, and they repaired it by replacing the blown parts, then it's possible that something else may have become damaged. The main DSP processor chip isn't on the main board; it's on a smallish plug-in daughter board. So even if they did replace the main board, they may well not have replaced the processor board, and it have have been damaged in some way that they didn't notice in testing before they shipped it back. Obviously, failures like the above are very high current events, and with many inductors about the place, there is plenty of opportunity for large surges to appear briefly on any power lines. This is just one theory among several. Your board may not have failed as dramatically as the one above, and the repair may have had nothing to do with it. Another possibility: when they replaced the main board, they would have changed some things that require calibration. For example, there are resistors that measure the battery voltage; these have a tolerance of typically about 1%. Two are usually involved. To keep the systemic error low, these are calibrated out by measuring a precision voltage source and adjusting an "adjustment value" to get the answer right. They may not have performed a new calibration procedure after replacing the main board. The mismatched calibration process has the potential (so to speak) to make the accuracy worse than if they didn't adjust at all. For example, if the old board read 1% low, and the new board reads 1% high, it will now read about 2% high, since the +1.0% adjustment for the old board is applied to the new board. How this could cause the symptoms you are seeing, I have no idea. In summary, by front runner theory is the high resistance battery cable. Can others confirm that their batteries change voltage by much less than 1.8 V for a 25 A charge over 2 minutes?
February 7, 201610 yr Something else just occurred to me. I have this theory that the inverter synchronises its output (voltage and phase) to that of the incoming mains, when it's available and in range. It does this so if and when it needs to go to bypass/line mode, it can do so with the shortest time and the least glitches. Another theory that I have is that for UPS switching, they accelerate the switch-over with SCRs or TRIACs somehow. (On that ~ 100 x 100 mm board near the AC connectors that connects to the main board via four long (~ 65 mm) standoffs.) If this latter is true, all the more reason to be in sync. So maybe the main fault is the reading of the mains at 40 Hz. Then, the output is intentionally being slowed down so that it is in step with the mains. The low frequency limit is 40 Hz, very close to where Janet's inverter is. Maybe some of the dips are when the measured mains voltage goes below that limit. So my theory of the processor running at 120 MHz is looking less unlikely now. Suppose the time between zero crossings is used to measure the mains frequency. Normally this would be 10 ms for half a 50 Hz wave. But if it's running 20% fast, then it will count 20% higher between zero crossings than usual, so the period will read 20% high, or the frequency 20% low, or 40 Hz. Why battery mode and not in line mode? I can't answer that one yet.
February 7, 201610 yr I don't think there is any synchronisation, the inverter is off grid so it is not needed, besides the changeover can be set for appliance or ups. I suggest sending it for repairs.
February 7, 201610 yr I just noticed something else: the low frequency seems to coincide with the inverter working hard (well, 500 ish VA), OR the solar charger is running (~ 6 A into the battery from solar). For example, the last data (earliest) start with 40 Hz, but a few pages up at 10:02, just because the load went down to 23 VA (fridge switched off perhaps). As soon as the load came back at 10:10, the frequency went down to 40 Hz again. There might be a correlation via battery voltage; the battery voltage is significantly lower with the 500 VA load than with the 23 VA load. So I still think that battery health or battery leads could be at least part of the problem.That sounds like switching transients are getting into the mains sampling circuitry. Unusual that the solar charger running causes the same problem, though.Janet, if you send the unit back for repairs, make sure they understand the nature of the problem, and get them to test it with no to low load and to check the output and/or mains freqiencies. This sort of fault could easily come back with a "no fault found" diagnosis, if they're not primed to look specifically for this unusual fault. I'd get the battery cabling checked first, though.
February 8, 201610 yr Coulomb, Manie and Eugene, Thaks for all your input. It is really appreciated and will be considered. Answer to some of your questions: - This machine was not repaired, the one that failed were replaced with a new machine because it were still under guarantee - I have switch before the inverter that would: 1. Switch all input the inverter off 2. Switch to the solar panels, it should only switch to Eskom power when solar is gone or battery voltage go below setting 12 value. This is the setting that dip and give the 40hz reading. 3. Switch to Eskom power, Eskom power bypass the inverter but both Eskom and solar will charge batteries when available.
February 8, 201610 yr I have mine setup the same. Axpert 3KW KS. 2 - 105Ah 12V batteries 2 - 255W pv panels Eskom bypassed, switched on all lights (LED's), the load went up to 805VA / 751W, frequency stayed dead on 50.1Hz.
March 5, 20197 yr The panels have stc and noct = standard test conditions and normal operating conditions. The latter is more reliable figure. Ex. 330Wp = Voc and about 8.73A/hr short circuit. So real world you can get 90deg solar angle mid day max power of about 295W. Parallel ups the amps, series ups the voltage and lower the power loss we run 2 mppt one at 820Voc-10A and 680Voc at 10A. Static angle, we have reached 84.5 KW days with blue Skye's
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