Good day

I was wondering if the following is allowed per standards and rules (attached image). I could not ascertain that from the SANS spec.

This is the Essentials DB and all the essentials share the Neutral in that DB. I would like to have separate Indicators and another Breaker in the same Essentials DB that does not share the Essentials DB but their lives and neutrals come from other DB boards.

Thank you

Edited December 17, 20232 yr by TheMac

48 minutes ago, TheMac said:

Good day

I was wondering if the following is allowed per standards and rules (attached image). I could not ascertain that from the SANS spec.

This is the Essentials DB and all the essentials share the Neutral in that DB. I would like to have separate Indicators and another Breaker in the same Essentials DB that does not share the Essentials DB but their lives and neutrals come from other DB boards.

Thank you

Let's hear from @TaliaB

I would say these indications belong in the Main DB to alert about ALL the sources of supply. 

8 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

Let's hear from @TaliaB

I would say these indications belong in the Main DB to alert about ALL the sources of supply. 

I have Indicators and a pump breaker in those Other DBs as well but this Essentials DB is not in close proximity to the other DBs and that is why I would like to have these additional Indicators and the additional breaker in the Essentials DB

Edited December 17, 20232 yr by TheMac

12 minutes ago, TheMac said:

I have Indicators and a pump breaker in those Other DBs as well but this Essentials DB is not in close proximity to the other DBs and that is why I would like to have these additional Indicators and the additional breaker in the Essentials DB

Then I would say it's fine with the added label. 

I would say, even if not explicitly prohibited by the SANS standards, this is not a good practice and will be confusing even with extra labels. Rather put the indicators in a separate small surface mount DB. 

16 minutes ago, PowerUser said:

I would say, even if not explicitly prohibited by the SANS standards, this is not a good practice and will be confusing even with extra labels. Rather put the indicators in a separate small surface mount DB. 

I for one will not spoil the room that has a flush DB with a kind of surface anything. My DB in a bedroom in the middle of my house. Even my free geyser timer from Eskom was not fitted surface many moons ago. Was no place inside the DB. 

15 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

I for one will not spoil the room that has a flush DB with a kind of surface anything. My DB in a bedroom in the middle of my house. Even my free geyser timer from Eskom was not fitted surface many moons ago. Was no place inside the DB. 

This Essentials DB is a flush DB so yes, a small surface mount DB for the indicators will look a bit out of place. But rules are there for a reason and if they state that I cannot put the indicators in the same Esssentials DB then so be it. So it will be good to get a definitive answer about this.
 

Would I be allowed to put that pump breaker in the same small surface mount DB as the indicators if I have to go the additional surface mount DB route?

It is allowed, but there needs to be a warning label that mentions Dual Supply. & I would suggest that you mark the Neutrals with labels as well. If you don't so you can blow appliances if neutrals are not clearly marked. 

I've seen this happen a few times. Had this happen to one of my customers that tried to get his own electrician do some work, he tied all the neutrals together. Long list of appliances damaged. Coffee machine, fridges, all the light bulbs dimmer switches. What a mess. 

Beware of the different power source neutrals. The ATESS HV inverter doesn't need neutrals split as there is an isolation transformer. But everything else that is HF based without a transformer will need Neutrals split up. 

8 minutes ago, Steve87 said:

It is allowed, but there needs to be a warning label that mentions Dual Supply. & I would suggest that you mark the Neutrals with labels as well. If you don't so you can blow appliances if neutrals are not clearly marked. 

I've seen this happen a few times. Had this happen to one of my customers that tried to get his own electrician do some work, he tied all the neutrals together. Long list of appliances damaged. Coffee machine, fridges, all the light bulbs dimmer switches. What a mess. 

Beware of the different power source neutrals. The ATESS HV inverter doesn't need neutrals split as there is an isolation transformer. But everything else that is HF based without a transformer will need Neutrals split up. 

I am very particular about the neutrals and earths in the installation. This installation is with a Sunsynk 5K and I am attentive to the Earth-Neutral Bond as well. Fortunately I am one of those heavy detail "Expressive" labellers.

The Earth's are all common so makes no difference. But the Neutrals can be a show stopper if mixed. 

3 hours ago, Steve87 said:

The Earth's are all common so makes no difference. But the Neutrals can be a show stopper if mixed. 

From what I see there is only 1 N bar and wiring to other DBs so with labels it should be clear. I hope

There are a few considerations when dealing with sub- distribution boards. Mixed neutrals or missing neutrals in 1 db or sub db is not a good idea. If you count the amount of live wires in one db the amount of neutrals should be exactly the same. 1 live 1 neutral if you move the live wire to another location ( sub db) you take the neutral with. There are 3 main factors on any db boards to consider that stands as a rule.

1. Main db( incomer feeder(utility) point of supply) is your main db board and needs an isolation device, mcb, rcd,(with overload) or isolator. Above this isolator(main switch) you need a label that specifies "IN CASE OF EMERGENCY SWITCH OFF IMMEDIATELY "

2. Sub-db( fed from main db) Seperate isolation device same labelling applies to main switch or isolator.

3. Visible or audible(not practical) indication of power present status on main db board and visible or audible(not practical) indication for sub-db's that is fed from alternative power supply( inverter).Labelling on all db boards that is fed from inverter, "ALTERNATIVE POWER SUPPLY PRESENT" Remember if inverter is used as alternative power supply the output breaker becomes the isolator(main switch).

Like @Steve87 said ensure neutrals are identified beforehand do not mix neutrals from non- essential and essential and ensure neutrals protected by Rcd is not mixed with neutrals that is not Rcd protected.

7 hours ago, TheMac said:

. I would like to have separate Indicators and another Breaker in the same Essentials DB that does not share the Essentials DB but their lives and neutrals come from other DB boards

There needs to be visible seperation between non essential curcuits and ",other curcuits" in the same db board and it needs to be labeled accordingly. Remember the next electrician needs to be able to identify "mixed curcuits in 1 db board. Not best practice but if done correctly it should not be a problem.

@Scorp007 @PowerUser @Steve87 @TaliaB

Thank you for all the advice. It is much appreciated.