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PIP4048 error 06


Bricoleur
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All, I am new to the forum and appreciate the knowledge sharing seen so far. I will seek your advice on an issue I faced recently with my PIP4048. 

I have two in parallel with 4500Wp of Solar and 24 x 2V Enersol T1000 bank. 

After what I think is overload (wasnt at home but the load based on what my wife told was around 8000w!!! ), the inverters shut down. When I restarted it I saw an error 06 on one inverter (the Master I guess) so I ve isolated the inverters and now I am running on only one. 

What I saw as strange behavior is when I start the faulty inverter (connected ONLY TO BATTERY) I hear the relay click then the voltage start to build up from both OUTPUT AND INPUT sides (knowing  that AC input/grid is disconnected) to reach 252v then the error 06 appears. 

Also I can see the symbol of utily displaying on the screen (isolated symbol flashing). 

With my test screw driver I see a voltage on the input side of inverter while disconnected as if the bypass relay is stuck and the inverter is feeding itself. 

 

Any suggestion or advice is highly appreciate, attached is a video recodring of the problem. 

 

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2 hours ago, Bricoleur said:

I hear the relay click then the voltage start to build up from both OUTPUT AND INPUT sides

Welcome to the forum Bricoleur

From what I read, things don't look good. I know to little about those units to speculate on what went wrong, but i agree, it does seem like the bypass relay is fused closed. 

There is a few guys on the forum that knows the inside of these machines and I am sure they will soon share their ideas. 

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image.thumb.png.5a45fade62d3c26267daf4f95f77b781.png

Basically they say look at the mainboard to see if anything is damaged.

Nothing in the repair manual states that a fused relay is possible. I'm not saying it is impossible but you shouldn't assume that is what happened.

On the other hand, you can just open up the inverter and take a look at the relays yourself if you are convinced that is the problem. They are in the bottom left corner of the inverter.

They look like this:

image.thumb.png.eb7a3bc4939c9f82e23ed2e093acd085.png

The black boxes. You can desolder them and test them, they look like they are 12v rated. Super easy to test.

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Yeah based on the service manual it is unlikely the relay is your problem.

If I'm reading this correctly, it is more likely the control board is damaged.

The output voltage keeps building and it isn't controlling the relays correctly.

Something probably blew on the mainboard. I would take it apart and looked for burned components.

Btw. you can search online the "service manual" is available online from various places. Can't recall where I downloaded this copy or I would just link you but a few google searches should find it for you.

The inverter is unlikely to be damaged by output overload. In my experience the two things that kill that Axpert inverter:

1) By far the most common, PV. Running close to the maximum input voltage which then gets exceeded and kills the inverter

2) Extreme AC input voltage surge like a broken neutral in a star delta configuration will cook the inverter. Or lightning or a serious surge on the utility network that exceeds the ability of the MOVs to absorb the energy.

Edited by Gnome
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As a data point, before you start ripping things apart, I'd be interested if the voltage shown on the input side is real, in other words, is it perhaps energising the input side? Because such a condition would finally collapse the proverbial probability function into a real life example (ie, until now we've merely discussed the possibility of such a fault condition and what it would mean for NRS097-2-1 compliance).

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7 hours ago, Bricoleur said:

With my test screw driver I see a voltage on the input side of inverter while disconnected as if the bypass relay is stuck and the inverter is feeding itself. 

As a point of interest, can you see the voltage reaching 252 V or more? It might be the measurement that is the problem.

I agree that it seems that at least one relay is stuck. Here is a block diagram of how the relays are configured on early models:

http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=60561#p60561

The way that the output voltage wanders, instead of snapping to 230 V right away, suggests big problems, possibly damaged IGBTs and quite possibly their drivers.

The simplest thing would be a new mother board. If you're handy with electronics, you could follow some of the repair and partial schematic posts at the AEVA forum. There is an index in the first post.

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16 hours ago, Jaco de Jongh said:

 

Thx a lot guys, I think I will tear diwn the inverter in the coming weekend to check it up. 

I had before a failure with single install for my summer home (MPPSolar 4k inverter) and I ve replaced the faulty IGBT but with no luck..in fact at that time, inverter explode when I ve started it. 

Can anyone let me know where I can find the IGBT driver so I can also replace it. 

I ve ordered two main boards just incase and it will arrive next Month for situation like this :).

Will update you with my findings.. 

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50 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Is that the actual transfer switch?

Those four black boxes (vaguely T-shaped) at the right of the photo are the four relays that make up the transfer switch. The relays connect AC in (Active and Neutral), inverter out, and load out.

The neutral AC in relay is the one that becomes a changeover type in some models. On some brands of relay, you can see whether they are changeover or not by a sort of schematic on top of the relay; not the ones in the photo above, but as below.

ZI5M3Be.jpg

Block diagram:

file.php?id=381

Actually, that's Weber's guess at the configuration with the changeover relay. From this post.

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55 minutes ago, Coulomb said:

On some brands of relay, you can see whether they are changeover or not by a sort of schematic on top of the relay

On the top board, the changeover type has a C in the product number, 832HA-1A-F-C. The single throw type ends in -A.

Honestly, I don't know how this thing can ever pass our grid code requirements in South Africa if the live and neutral halves of the the transfer switch are separate relays and the neutral side on the inverter isn't even switched. I also don't see how you can implement the feedback requirement, that is not energizing the line unless there is a signal indicating the relay(s) have properly opened. Until now I really just assumed that they would at least use a double pole for this bit.

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Heads up, I ve received an email form the vendor as per below:

 

"

Engineer said it might cuase by overload .Pls check the relay on the board , replace the relay 
to see if can work .
Pls check attachment for reference of relay ."
 
Yesterday I ve checked the input and output of my inverter while it is off and they are shortcircuit, is it normal?
 
Next step: during the week end I will dismantle the inverter and check the relay and have a lookk to the FETs and IGBT.
 
 

665295766213096171.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Bricoleur said:

Engineer said it might cuase by overload

He's not wrong. If too much current went through those relays, it might have welded one or more contacts together. You'd have to unsolder them, and then check with a multimeter/continuity tester whether the contacts work correctly.

That brings up another question though: Did you have proper overcurrent protection on the input? It's a 40A relay, so ideally you should have a 40A or even a 32A breaker on the input side of the inverter to protect it. If not... well then you know a possible reason for the failure.

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I think this is my mistake as I ve used 40A circuit breaker on the input and output which is more that what the inverter can support, also I didnt use single circuit breaker per inverter which now I beleive I should.

Also circuit breaker will allow more current for few seconds so I hope this is the case and not a FET or IGBT thing. 

Will check it during the weekend and update you guys. 

By the way I dont live in your great country guys I am french-lebanese living  in Lebanon 10month of sun. Hope this doesnt play against me but I thought such forum is great to be part of. 

Thx a mil

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1 minute ago, Bricoleur said:

I think this is my mistake as I ve used 40A circuit breaker on the input and output which is more that what the inverter can support

No, it is exactly as much as the inverter can support. Not necessarily a mistake in and of itself (although I don't know what the instructions for this inverter mandates).

1 minute ago, Bricoleur said:

Also circuit breaker will allow more current for few seconds

This might well be it. A normal C-curve breaker can handle twice its current for tens of seconds before it trips. The only requirement is that it must trip immediately at 5 times its rating. Again, I would defer to the instructions from the manufacturer.

7 minutes ago, Bricoleur said:

By the way I dont live in your great country guys I am french-lebanese living  in Lebanon

If we can accomodate the Ausies and one Spanish guy, I'm sure we can make room for you too!

(Besides... many of us Saffers are a mixture of just about everything Europe has to offer, I myself am a mixture of Dutch, German, French and even some Jewish influence... if you really get down to it :-) ).

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4 hours ago, Bricoleur said:

Yesterday I ve checked the input and output of my inverter while it is off and they are shortcircuit, is it normal?

No, I don't believe that this is normal.

You might find a short from AC out neutral to earth, which surprised me when I first encountered it. But upon reflection, this is expected in models with the neutral to earth relay contact. 

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Ok guys, I ve opened the inverter just to make sure of the type of relays and here comes the surprise: something big and black was metled... (see photo attached) anybody knows what it is? And if replacing it will solve the problem or I need to change the IGBT also.

Thanks

IMG_20181212_205721.jpg

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Oh sure. It is the C of the LC filter that filters the PWM from the output of the inverter. The associated L is huge and out-of-shot-above in the photo above. It can be seen here. There is a LEM hall-effect current sensor in between the L and the C, also out-of-shot-above.

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