Hydrogen... where are we at? Still years out? Feels like some things are happening.

[display_Name]

Yes I know. We're years away etc etc. But I can't stop shaking the feeling that there are some great things happening in this space. We're not there yet, but I think we might be getting closer. Some stuff in this space:

Low pressure room temperature storage using metal hydrides:
https://www.gknhydrogen.com/product/

95% efficient Electrolyzer from Hysata (Aussie based company). Looks like Australia is taking green Hydrogen seriously.
https://hysata.com/

Check out this hydrogen Genset: 
https://h2sys.fr/en/products/hydrogen-powered-generator-sets/

We can only push back 25% of our breaker's capacity back to the grid. That means that some people actually have a ton of additional generation capacity sitting on the roof. Lithium is great, but for a lot more storage, something like a cylinder storing hydrogen could have it beat in terms of cost by a country mile. Looking at the Boxhy genset above and it's 68g / kWh, an 11Kg cylinder could store about 161kWh of electricity.

Is it as efficient as Lithium? Hell no... while the Hysata electrolyzer is 95% efficient, Fuel cells are about 50% efficient. But... if you are able to store about several hundred kWh in a few cylinders, maybe there's a path here... especially if you don't need to buy the hydrogen, but can create it on the roof. Even if you need to purchase it, it still works out the same cost per kWh as a diesel generator (rough estimates).

Then there's South Africa's investments into Green Hydrogen that could drop the cost per kg of green hydrogen even if you aren't getting it from your roof.

I'm not seeing much discussion on hydrogen, and I suppose that makes sense as it's not really consumer accessible yet, and even if it was, it can't beat the cost of just getting your spare power from the grid... but the last few weeks of constant rain in Cape Town had me thinking. If the cost is already comparable to diesel generator backup, how are these not more of a thing for a lot more storage than the cost of lithium.

 

[Sc00bs]

Despite lots of money being put into it Hydrogen is never going to work on any significant level. 

Sabine Hossenfelder did a good video on it any why there is so much hype about it.

  

[Sc00bs]

Much better idea to make Methane Gas (CH4) with the Hydrogen from electrolysis using a Sabatier reaction, (H2 + Co2 = CH4 + O2).

It is much easier to store, could be used to power current ICE vehicles, generate heat etc. 

We already have lots of LPG Gas infrastructure which would be suitable for use withy the green Methane. 

[display_Name]

1 hour ago, Sc00bs said:

Despite lots of money being put into it Hydrogen is never going to work on any significant level. 

Sabine Hossenfelder did a good video on it any why there is so much hype about it.

  

lol, the bit where she says "and that's why the brits left the EU"... hahahaha

Yeah, I think I mostly agree with the sentiment, but I'm not really talking about vehicles (dumb to be on hydrogen imo), or about massive grid scale storage (efficiency is important here). However, what are the other options for longer term distributed renewable storage for power that you make yourself? Is it really just lithium? How do you put several hundred kWh in storage that you produced yourself as excess? I guess it's an itch that I feel I have not scratched properly yet. It feels like with the right tech, even with a lower efficiency, this could be something that can replace diesel generators at a R/kWh. If I'm not able to do anything constructive with the excess kWh from my roof, does it really matter what the efficiency is?

 

[display_Name]

1 hour ago, Sc00bs said:

Much better idea to make Methane Gas (CH4) with the Hydrogen from electrolysis using a Sabatier reaction, (H2 + Co2 = CH4 + O2).

It is much easier to store, could be used to power current ICE vehicles, generate heat etc. 

We already have lots of LPG Gas infrastructure which would be suitable for use withy the green Methane. 

I should clarify... I'm thinking smaller scale. Like... equipment could fit into a 3m container. If I'm going to make hydrogen, my brain says store it in a low pressure (40 bar) metal hydride container, then use a fuel cell to make electricity again.

A better version of this: 

 

Edited July 16 by display_Name

[Sc00bs]

@display_Name I agree 100% and would love to have some sort of gas energy storage system but I think that a small scale CH4 from power generator would be a better option than H2, much easier to handle the gas and less likely to spontaneously explode (although still a definite possibility).

Also has the advantage that current domestic stoves, gas heater etc would all work with methane where they would not work very well with Hydrogen (tends to leak through very small gaps)

Something like this https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2468606919301893 

[display_Name]

19 minutes ago, Sc00bs said:

@display_Name I agree 100% and would love to have some sort of gas energy storage system but I think that a small scale CH4 from power generator would be a better option than H2, much easier to handle the gas and less likely to spontaneously explode (although still a definite possibility).

Also has the advantage that current domestic stoves, gas heater etc would all work with methane where they would not work very well with Hydrogen (tends to leak through very small gaps)

Something like this https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2468606919301893 

It sounds super interesting, but are there any units that can make that at small scale?

EDIT: Reading up now, are you worried about methane escape causing climate issues? Apparently methane is a super bad greenhouse gas... not sure making it from air changes that tooo much.

Edited July 17 by display_Name

[Sc00bs]

@display_Name Methane is not as easy to store in liquid form as LPG as the boiling temperature of the liquid is much lower requiring much higher pressure vessels to keep it in liquid form at room temperatures. It is however still a lot easier to handle than Hydrogen and a lot more attractive as an energy storage media if handled correctly. 

Can't comment on the greenhouse gas side of things as I don't know enough about it, I have heard similar comments though and believe it is 10X more of a problem than CO2. 

If you are interested in biotech stuff, google "precision fermentation" , it is now cheaper & more efficient now to make "milk" using bacteria rather than from cows. Dairy cows produce an enormous amount of Methane gas and switching to precision fermentation would be a huge step in reducing greenhouse gas emmissions. 

 

[display_Name]

On 2024/07/22 at 9:52 AM, Sc00bs said:

If you are interested in biotech stuff, google "precision fermentation" , it is now cheaper & more efficient now to make "milk" using bacteria rather than from cows. Dairy cows produce an enormous amount of Methane gas and switching to precision fermentation would be a huge step in reducing greenhouse gas emmissions. 

 

Well that just blew my mind.

I was also down a flow battery rabbit hole again... with the idea that lots of storage and not as much kWp is the idea here... i.e. longer term storage (a few days)... but they still don't seem to be anywhere near effective unless you are at multi-container sized installation scale.

[Kalahari Meerkat]

On 2024/07/22 at 9:52 AM, Sc00bs said:

Dairy cows produce an enormous amount of Methane gas

I think the problem is that this statement is not all that correct, it all depends on what you feed your dairy cows, you go the usual, stuffit, we'll feed them that weed called "Lucern" and nogal the GMO variety, then yes, Methane and then some, but heck you have plenty of Methane from harvesting this weed as well, already, so maybe looking at more correct feed, like various natural grasses may well change that statement around...

[Calvin]

On 2024/07/16 at 1:34 PM, display_Name said:

If I'm not able to do anything constructive with the excess kWh from my roof, does it really matter what the efficiency is?

This is the point that apparently completely escapes the learned Ms Hossenfelder.

She waffles on endlessly about how stupid it would be to generate electricity from fossil fuels and then convert that to hydrogen, which is of course correct.  But then, nobody is proposing to do that.

She also fixates on the efficiency of the process of producing hydrogen and misses the point that halving price of solar-produced electricity has the same effect as doubling the process efficiency.  As we all know, the reduction in cost of solar-produced electricity is ongoing and substantial.

I am not aware of anybody suggesting that hydrogen is an easy solution - the logistical challenges are enormous.  However, if somebody had said to you in the 19th century that you would be able to drive around the corner and fill your car with petrol made from refined oil that has been extracted (often from under the seabed) and brought halfway around the world, that would also have seemed like quite a logistical stretch.  It is a brave soul who makes statements like "Hydrogen is never going to work on any significant level".

There was a popular saying when I was studying engineering: "Those who can, do.  Those who can't, teach".  A modern version might be "Those who can, do.  Those who can't, pontificate on their YouTube channel"

[Sc00bs]

Found this on Quora, Methane requires a lot lower temp/higher pressure to stay in liquid form Vs LPG gas. 

Still way warmer than liquid hydrogen but not quite as easy to handle as Butane/Propane.  

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-butane-used-in-LPG-rather-than-methane 

Also this on making other fuels from CO2 

https://www.quora.com/Can-propane-or-butane-be-produced-using-CO2-and-H2-in-a-catalytic-process-similar-to-how-methane-can-be-produced-using-the-Sabatier-reaction

[display_Name]

On 2024/07/23 at 2:46 PM, Kalahari Meerkat said:

I think the problem is that this statement is not all that correct, it all depends on what you feed your dairy cows, you go the usual, stuffit, we'll feed them that weed called "Lucern" and nogal the GMO variety, then yes, Methane and then some, but heck you have plenty of Methane from harvesting this weed as well, already, so maybe looking at more correct feed, like various natural grasses may well change that statement around...

I never really considered the methane from harvesting the weed.

[Sc00bs]

On 2024/07/23 at 2:46 PM, Kalahari Meerkat said:

I think the problem is that this statement is not all that correct, it all depends on what you feed your dairy cows, you go the usual, stuffit, we'll feed them that weed called "Lucern" and nogal the GMO variety, then yes, Methane and then some, but heck you have plenty of Methane from harvesting this weed as well, already, so maybe looking at more correct feed, like various natural grasses may well change that statement around...

Getting side tracked but which part of what I said is incorrect @Kalahari Meerkat ? 

From what I have read, changing feed stock and managing manure better can, at best, reduce cows methane production by 30-40%. 

A single cow produces between 60 & 120kg of methane gas a year according to the US EPA. So 36kg - 72kg of Methane per cow a year at best, still significant.   

Is there something I am missing? 

My argument was that technologies like "precision fermentation" which will reduce the number of cows that we need to keep for dairy worldwide significantly will have a greater impact on global warming than just trying to convince people to reduce their standard of living.  

[Kalahari Meerkat]

1 minute ago, Sc00bs said:

Is there something I am missing? 

Let's just say, cows don't produce methane... garbage in garbage out... the feed that is used is the real problem...

Do you eat red meat? Maybe you are not aware, but the feedlots that fatten up the cows for slaughter feed them corn, something that does not normally get consumed by them, only for 4 to 6 weeks though, then they die from various ailments due to the corn feed...

Just stating that cows produce methane is wrong, sorry, it depends on what their diet consists of...

[the_craterian]

Today a hundred off-shore 15mw wind turbines have the capacity to produce the equivalent of a good oil well(about 500e3 t. a year).

I think the best way to use this energy potential is to produce ammonia on site from which to produce h2 for cars, etc...

Today wind energy'd be cheap... (about 40 $/Mwh -> 10 kwh, the energy equivalent of 1 l. of diesel's about 0.4$), but H2 electrolysis's very expansive.