Please help. Batteries behaving strangely

[splunker]

Hello all.

I'm not sure what's happening. One of my lithium batteries went, I think, totally flat while the other stayed around 50%.

Now it looks like they are charging but are not at the same level. I have no idea why one went down like that.

Last night the inverter reported 50%. It's been so cloudy in CT, so that's kind of normal. 50 is my reserve level.

This morning I ran a hot wash, power came from Eskom as far as I could see. But the inverter reported 0% for a short period, then back to normal. 

Geyser came on and it appears that it killed one battery, although that should also have come from Eskom.

Not sure what to do because the batteries are both charging now but are at different levels. They have these lights that give an indication of charge.

 

[splunker]

I've contacted the installer but nervous that they don't get back tomme before something goes wrong.

[splunker]

This shows the batteries strange behaviour this morning. The dips are immediately following a drain, from hot wash laundry which appeared to use Eskom power.

[abd7]

The batteries need to be checked and firmware updated. Contact installer / battery manufacturer 

[splunker]

Thanks @abd7. I've contacted the installer. Do you think there's any danger that the batteries are at such different levels now and are charging? It probably sounds dumb but if one reaches 100 while the other is still below the reserve level ... Will the full one stop taking a charge intelligently?

[abd7]

https://chat.whatsapp.com/I6d84vNl1f2AYhG9yW2aIs

There is volta battery support on this whatsapp community 

[splunker]

Wow thanks for that!

Installer is coming round today to update firmware. Says I need not be concerned about the different charging levels.

[ViperGTI]

I've had this before on a different brand.  Can you somewhere check your State-of-Health?  In my case, when the SOC dropped like that, it was due to a short circuit within the battery and then afterwards, my SOH showed as 40-60ah.  After a firmware upgrade it was restored to 100ah temporarily, but the SOC would drop like that again after a week or so (or sometimes after a day). 

The issue only got solved after the batteries were repaired (with a bit of fighting, but it was done under warranty).  Short circuit was caused by loose cells within the battery that only got noticeable when the SOC dropped to certain levels.

[splunker]

Oh hectic. Thanks for the heads up on that. I'll keep an eye after the fw update...

[splunker]

8 minutes ago, ViperGTI said:

I've had this before on a different brand.  Can you somewhere check your State-of-Health?  In my case, when the SOC dropped like that, it was due to a short circuit within the battery and then afterwards, my SOH showed as 40-60ah.  After a firmware upgrade it was restored to 100ah temporarily, but the SOC would drop like that again after a week or so (or sometimes after a day). 

The issue only got solved after the batteries were repaired (with a bit of fighting, but it was done under warranty).  Short circuit was caused by loose cells within the battery that only got noticeable when the SOC dropped to certain levels.

I don't see any SOH on my Deye inverter. Will keep poking around 

[ViperGTI]

I use a custom computer (SolarAssist) where it lets you look at each individual battery's details.  Don't think you can view that level of detail just on the inverter.

[splunker]

5 minutes ago, ViperGTI said:

I use a custom computer (SolarAssist) where it lets you look at each individual battery's details.  Don't think you can view that level of detail just on the inverter.

Ahh I see, thanks for the info. I have Home assistant connected to the data logger, but yes, it looks kind of like the inverter isn't aware that there are 2 batteries. Not sure though. I'll take a look at solar assist. Sounds useful to be able to see what's happening in each battery. I'm just kind of nervous to touch anything...

[Sidewinder]

@splunker,

If you have/get the RS232 cable, just connect it to your master battery, and use something like pbmstools on your PC, at least you can see what the individual cells etc. are doing.

After 3 years of SA, I still like the product, but as with enquiring minds, one thing I miss most is to get a history of SOC% levels. SA give one a nice realtime battery SOC graph, but I don't have the time to watch it all day long... so I started experimenting with HA. Seeing you already have an HA server, together with smarthomeintegrations.co.za dongle and a RS232 to USB cable (get it from solar-assitant.io), you can monitor each battery's performance. You need a bit of HA, MQTT type of skills. I struggled in the beginning, but persevered . You won't be sorry, and if you like to code, HA can be magic (and frustrating at the same time:-))

I'm not affiliated to smarthomeintegrations or solar-assistant, but I like to support South African products (they both originate from Pretoria). Same goes for Thingwala, who is CTN based, I think.

 

[splunker]

7 minutes ago, Sidewinder said:

@splunker,

If you have/get the RS232 cable, just connect it to your master battery, and use something like pbmstools on your PC, at least you can see what the individual cells etc. are doing.

After 3 years of SA, I still like the product, but as with enquiring minds, one thing I miss most is to get a history of SOC% levels. SA give one a nice realtime battery SOC graph, but I don't have the time to watch it all day long... so I started experimenting with HA. Seeing you already have an HA server, together with smarthomeintegrations.co.za dongle and a RS232 to USB cable (get it from solar-assitant.io), you can monitor each battery's performance. You need a bit of HA, MQTT type of skills. I struggled in the beginning, but persevered . You won't be sorry, and if you like to code, HA can be magic (and frustrating at the same time:-))

I'm not affiliated to smarthomeintegrations or solar-assistant, but I like to support South African products (they both originate from Pretoria). Same goes for Thingwala, who is CTN based, I think.

 

Thanks I'll take a look at that. Ja I'm very curious about what's happening inside those batteries, I never knew where to begin though. I'll take a look at what you mentioned for sure!

Firmware is updated a d batteries seem to be reporting the same charge as one another now according to the big green lights at least, but I'm watching them like a hawk...

Thanks all for the assistance.

[Sidewinder]

Great, but with 4 green LED possibilities, you may still have a 25% error/deviation between batteries that you don't know about. Can you post a pic of the interface of the Volta battery. Hopefully it has the standard interface layout like so: HA likes those!!

[splunker]

5 hours ago, Sidewinder said:

Great, but with 4 green LED possibilities, you may still have a 25% error/deviation between batteries that you don't know about. Can you post a pic of the interface of the Volta battery. Hopefully it has the standard interface layout like so: HA likes those!!

Haha true story, but the green lights are better than nothing.

Thanks for the pic, mine look the same but different. Little confusing, the RS232 is a phone jack type plug, but mostly on the internet they're serial plugs? I guess that's the protocol, so the connector is just a connector. Bit confusing how that would connect to one of the smarthomeintegrations.co.za Deye esp dongles... I guess I'd need a dongle per battery... Or maybe there are other dongles I missed.

I'll keep poking around and see what I can find out. Maybe theres some walkthroughs on these forums.

Thanks for all the help, much appreciated.

[Sidewinder]

@splunker,

No, the smartdeye dongle is for the Inverter and provides the go between Inverter and HA. Yes, the Inverter does provide battery information (provided you have an active comms (CAN) cable to Master battery - see last para), but it will be consolidated. e.g. if one battery is @ 50% SOC and the other @ 60% SOC, it will send the info as 55% SOc, i.e. the average.

To get individual Batteries you need to have the RS232/USB cable (one is sufficient per battery bank, as they should all be linked (via RS485 - as per you pic).

You need to see if there is an HA Integration for you Battery (well actually the BMS type inside your Volta battery). I'm not sure what protocol your Volta BMS provides.

Info as to what BMS is inside the Volta is not common knowledge, but if someone knows, please post here. The pic you displayed has got a slightly different layout (RS232 to the left, instead of in the middle. 

BTW, I assume that the pic of your Volta ports are from the slave battery. The Master should have two cables. One RS485 link cable and one CAN cable to the inverter. Please confirm. 

[splunker]

1 hour ago, Sidewinder said:

@splunker,

No, the smartdeye dongle is for the Inverter and provides the go between Inverter and HA. Yes, the Inverter does provide battery information (provided you have an active comms (CAN) cable to Master battery - see last para), but it will be consolidated. e.g. if one battery is @ 50% SOC and the other @ 60% SOC, it will send the info as 55% SOc, i.e. the average.

To get individual Batteries you need to have the RS232/USB cable (one is sufficient per battery bank, as they should all be linked (via RS485 - as per you pic).

You need to see if there is an HA Integration for you Battery (well actually the BMS type inside your Volta battery). I'm not sure what protocol your Volta BMS provides.

Info as to what BMS is inside the Volta is not common knowledge, but if someone knows, please post here. The pic you displayed has got a slightly different layout (RS232 to the left, instead of in the middle. 

BTW, I assume that the pic of your Volta ports are from the slave battery. The Master should have two cables. One RS485 link cable and one CAN cable to the inverter. Please confirm. 

Thanks for the info.

I thought the deyen dongle was for the inverter, but didn't find any other dongle on the site. Will look again, shot.

You're right, the other battery has 2 cables, RS485 and CAN. Can't see where they go cos of trunking but I assume it's what you say, thanks again. Great that the data can get consolidated via the one battery...

I see, so the BMS itself is what I need to find out and then investigate HA support, I follow. I joined a Volta support WhatsApp group, maybe they will tell me...

Out of interest, do the batteries make any attempt to balance their charge between them? There's an 'Activate Battery ' setting on the inverter that may have something to do with that. It's been on since we got the system, about a year ago.

Thanks a lot for all your time and help here, honestly very grateful.

[Sidewinder]

@splunker

The "activate battery" only refers to put the Inverter to Battery comms via the CAN port in operation.

AFAIK, the BMS "dictates" what happens. So each battery will "request" charging current, and start to taper as the battery reaches the full status (either by voltage or SOC, not sure). E.g. on this 4 battery system, each have different current, some zero, some charging and some discharging! 

If you don't get any info from Volta WA group, the best way to confirm HA compatibility is to use the RS232/USB cable ( or just a plain RS232 cable if you still own a PC with a RS232 port (the 9pin is good)

Then use the PBMStools V2.5 and if you get this screen, you may be in luck in that the Volta uses the same (Pylontech) protocols as the PACE BMS. 

 

Hope this helps!

[splunker]

4 hours ago, Sidewinder said:

@splunker

The "activate battery" only refers to put the Inverter to Battery comms via the CAN port in operation.

AFAIK, the BMS "dictates" what happens. So each battery will "request" charging current, and start to taper as the battery reaches the full status (either by voltage or SOC, not sure). E.g. on this 4 battery system, each have different current, some zero, some charging and some discharging! 

If you don't get any info from Volta WA group, the best way to confirm HA compatibility is to use the RS232/USB cable ( or just a plain RS232 cable if you still own a PC with a RS232 port (the 9pin is good)

Then use the PBMStools V2.5 and if you get this screen, you may be in luck in that the Volta uses the same (Pylontech) protocols as the PACE BMS. 

 

Hope this helps!

Thanks it helps a lot! I'm very interested to plug into the batteries and see whats going on in there.

I think I found the correct cable, https://solar-assistant.io/shop/products/pace_rs232 ? Do you maybe know of any local suppliers so I can get one sooner? I'm very keen now.

I'm not able to find a battery dongle on https://smarthomeintegrations.co.za/, maybe they discontinued it. I think they have a youtube channel so I'll take a look there on the weekend.

I had seen that Geyserwalah device before, and I think it would fit my geyserwise... looks very cool. 

Thanks again

 

[Sidewinder]

Hi @splunker

You may be lucky and find the correct serial cable in you local electronics store. Even our local Communica shop doesn't sell the right cable. It has a db9 connector, and it needs a RJ11 one. I've ordered from Solar-assistant quite a few times and their deliveries are prompt + plus you know you have the right cable. 

Regarding the dongle, as mentioned, there is no dongle required for the battery. The dongle is only for the inverter. You can see it as a RS485 to Wifi bridge. If you have the USB serial cable for the battery, you can monitor the battery on you PC. Plug the same cable into your HA server, and with the correct integrations, the battery data can be visualised in HA.

[splunker]

5 minutes ago, Sidewinder said:

Hi @splunker

You may be lucky and find the correct serial cable in you local electronics store. Even our local Communica shop doesn't sell the right cable. It has a db9 connector, and it needs a RJ11 one. I've ordered from Solar-assistant quite a few times and their deliveries are prompt + plus you know you have the right cable. 

Regarding the dongle, as mentioned, there is no dongle required for the battery. The dongle is only for the inverter. You can see it as a RS485 to Wifi bridge. If you have the USB serial cable for the battery, you can monitor the battery on you PC. Plug the same cable into your HA server, and with the correct integrations, the battery data can be visualised in HA.

Right ok I see now. Sorry, got the wrong end of the stick there a.little. I can't connect the batteries directly to the HA server, it's in a different part of the house, but just seeing the battery state is awesome. I have some esps lying around, maybe I can figure something out using one of them... Thanks for everything, off to order the cable

[splunker]

On 2024/07/19 at 10:37 AM, Sidewinder said:

Hi @splunker

You may be lucky and find the correct serial cable in you local electronics store. Even our local Communica shop doesn't sell the right cable. It has a db9 connector, and it needs a RJ11 one. I've ordered from Solar-assistant quite a few times and their deliveries are prompt + plus you know you have the right cable. 

Regarding the dongle, as mentioned, there is no dongle required for the battery. The dongle is only for the inverter. You can see it as a RS485 to Wifi bridge. If you have the USB serial cable for the battery, you can monitor the battery on you PC. Plug the same cable into your HA server, and with the correct integrations, the battery data can be visualised in HA.

Sorry to be a pest. Got the cable this morning. You reckon it's safe to just plug it in and see what happens? I don't know anything about the protocol tbh.

[splunker]

On 2024/07/19 at 10:37 AM, Sidewinder said:

Hi @splunker

You may be lucky and find the correct serial cable in you local electronics store. Even our local Communica shop doesn't sell the right cable. It has a db9 connector, and it needs a RJ11 one. I've ordered from Solar-assistant quite a few times and their deliveries are prompt + plus you know you have the right cable. 

Regarding the dongle, as mentioned, there is no dongle required for the battery. The dongle is only for the inverter. You can see it as a RS485 to Wifi bridge. If you have the USB serial cable for the battery, you can monitor the battery on you PC. Plug the same cable into your HA server, and with the correct integrations, the battery data can be visualised in HA.

Hi @Sidewinder

Thanks for all your help. I got my cable tonight and it seems to work. I tried PBMS but that didnt seem to work, I might have missed something though.

This thread https://powerforum.co.za/topic/20390-volta-stage-one-bms-software/ got me BMS software that seems to work.

I found a config file I missed in my haste, and that allowed me to read both battery packs. I'm a little confused that the charge/discharge cycle count is so high for a 1 year old system (~1500), but I don't know how they're measured.

To address the initial query, SOH says 100%, so that's great..

Thanks for all the help, really appreciate it. I'll keep fiddling and report back if I find anything interesting.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 26 by splunker

[Sidewinder]

@splunker

Great. Congrats.. you've done great so far!!!.

Just off the cuff, your 2 pack delta voltage difference looks excellent. couple of mV. The [problem is one needs to monitor it during a full daily cycle of charge and discharge. I've noticed on my 2 packs great differences, but it always recovers to a few <10 mV. 

Regarding the cycle count: Mine show like 460 after nearly 4 years of sparse use (SOC% down to 60% mostly per day). So I deduce that the cycles are measured from full (100% minus the lowest point e.g. 60%) = 40% = 0.4 of a cycle, and it add all these dips together for the cycle count.

I have heard of some BMS that regards that as 1 cycle, so it is over estimating the cycle count by a large percentage. So if your charge/discharge cycle is very high per day, then the cycle count will also be high. Maybe someone can explain it more accurately.

Thanks for the link re BMS software, I'll get a copy and keep it in my arsenal!

You may want to take a look at "System Config" tab. That will show how the battery is setup. Quite a number of parameters, but you will see things like OVP (Over Voltage protection,  & e.g. when the balancer (if BMS has the functionality) kicks in. (+-3.65V, if i remember correctly). In there you should also see what Protocol the BMS support/talks. Pylontech seems to be the most prevalent.

So plugging the Serial cable into your HA server won't show anything (yet). the only way to get the info into HA (for me, there may be other/newer/easier methods now) is via Mqtt. Once the correct integration is added, it all comes to life.... let us know if you succeed.