Howzit Peeps.

 

I got referred to this place in the woods by a buddy  as I need  some of your smart brains here to advice me.

I have a simple setup 1 x 5 kVA Voltronics Axpert Inverter and two 2.4 kWh Polyntech used a UPS during load shedding.  I have no plans for Solar panels, but I want power during outages.  So just an UPS basically to keep my electronic goods going and the  lights in the house. 

 

The Axpert setup has been ok over the last few years, but obviously not ideal as it couldn't  interface with the Polyntech batteries that I got beginning of this year.  Yea I know there are some guys in Pretoria that developed  some cable and software but frankly when I saw the price and interface I decided against it.

 

So over the weekend we had a 8 hour planned outage.  During this time a hair dryer was used. This event truly  unsettled  the Axpert who decide to switch itself off. Now if I switch it on it does go on for a brief few seconds then switched back off. Now warning lights or beeps. 

____________________

1. Which inverter should I buy ?

Requirements

- Robust ( not spill its guts when a 2000W Benner Read Professional asks it out for a quick spin around the block) 

- Interface with the Polyntech batteries natively (  no garage hack job with DIY cables) - I also had a problem where my one Polyntech battery would switch off when fully charged (53.2V) on the Apxert)

 

___________________________

 

2. Where can I take the Axpert to have it fixed ? I bought it from a buddy with an account at Rectrum years ago ?

3. I also have  one of these 2000W Ellis Power Inverters that let the smoke out  - Are those worth fixing ?

I want to fix the two old ones and pass them on to the needy 

_________________

 

Any suggestions would be welcomed.

 I don`t have an affiliation towards any specific brand.

 

I was asking around about Victron (Actually how I got here as this is apparently the Victron fan club Forum ?

 

Much appreciated and thanks in advance

Tiaan

 

 

 

 

 

Welcome Tiaan. 

I liked this ... 🤣

23 minutes ago, Tiaan Pot said:

Victron fan club Forum

For pure UPS, 5kva Axpert.

And if money is not a big issues, then I suggest a NRS approved grid tied inverter like a hybrid 3kva Victron Multiplus II. Just that.

But, because you are forward thinking and are interested in more data, you then decide to get a VenusGX and a Carlo Gavazzi and install it all properly on day one.

Why? 
Because the day will come when you are going to want to add panels, THEN you only need to buy a MPPT and your are grid tied.

1 hour ago, Tiaan Pot said:

1. Which inverter should I buy ?

If you can afford it, get a Victron as a solid start for expansion in the future. They dont let the smoke out easily and have Pass though ratings that few or maybe no other inverter can offer you. Basically you can run 50Amps through the inverter constantly so no hair dryer will  make it switch off. You do however need the Venus to intergrate with the Pylons, but Victron is worth the money. 

1 hour ago, Tiaan Pot said:

(Actually how I got here as this is apparently the Victron fan club Forum ?

Wow, that is a good sign, this Forum use to be a 90% Voltronic / Axpert, 5 % Victron  and 5 % "Cant Remember". There use to be some interesting debates about the two brands, but lately there is a bit more Victron related posts and coverage. 

30 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Welcome Tiaan. 

I liked this ... 🤣

For pure UPS, 5kva Axpert.

And if money is not a big issues, then I suggest a NRS approved grid tied inverter like a hybrid 3kva Victron Multiplus II. Just that.

But, because you are forward thinking and are interested in more data, you then decide to get a VenusGX and a Carlo Gavazzi and install it all properly on day one.

Why? 
Because the day will come when you are going to want to add panels, THEN you only need to buy a MPPT and your are grid tied.

Thank for the reply Terrible Triplett.

I thought that maybe the new Axpersts were upgraded to be able to communicate the Polyntechs but after some research I doesn't seem like it so I dont really want to go back to Axpert. Plus this one didnt see much work at all and it failed when I really needed it. Once bitten .....

 

5 minutes ago, Jaco de Jongh said:

If you can afford it, get a Victron as a solid start for expansion in the future. They dont let the smoke out easily and have Pass though ratings than few or maybe no other inverter can offer you. Basically you can run 50Amps through the inverter constantly so no hair dryer will  make it switch off. You do however need the Venus to intergrate with the Pylons, but Victron is worth the money. 

Wow, that is a good sign, this Forum use to be a 90% Voltronic / Axpert, 5 % Victron  and 5 % "Cant Remember". There use to be some interesting debates about the two brands, but lately there is a bit more Victron related posts and coverage. 

Hi Jaco 

 

My mate recons that the Victron MultiPlus-II 48/3000/35-32 2400W Inverter/Charger would work for my needs.

I tried reading the manual to try and understand how the Victron components work together but Im still not 100% clear. The Datasheet was more informative than the manual.

 

 

 

 

Seems like I need the above, 

Inverter: Victron MultiPlus-II 48/3000/35-32 : R17.5k

Comms Module : Venus : R5k

Display unit : Colour Control GX : R9k 

 

Is that right ? What else is missing ?

The price for the Victron display is what I paid for my old 5 kW inverter !!

5 minutes ago, Tiaan Pot said:

Seems like I need the above, 

Inverter: Victron MultiPlus-II 48/3000/35-32 : R17.5k

Comms Module : Venus : R5k

Display unit : Colour Control GX : R9k 

You can chose between the Venus and the Color control. 

I prefer the Venus, its got build in WiFi, and you can see the same image you will get from the color control on your Phone or PC. 

5 minutes ago, Tiaan Pot said:

What else is missing ?

Just a cable between your inverter and the Venus. Normal Lan cable. 

Edit: And the cable between the Venus and Pylons. The one that comes with the Pylons does not work. Pinout is wrong. 

3 minutes ago, Tiaan Pot said:

Inverter: Victron MultiPlus-II 48/3000/35-32 : R17.5k
Comms Module : Venus : R5k
Display unit : Colour Control GX : R9k 

I would add a Carlo Gavazzi to the Venus ... you can then see what is happening in real time on your entire DB, all power in and out.

If you connect all the loads to the MPII to AC_out1 and AC_out2, then you don't need a Carlo, but we don't tend to use AC_out2 UNLESS one is off-grid.

This one: https://www.victronenergy.com/live/energy-meters:et112

And I would get a MK3 cable too, to upgrade and access the inverter's internal programming.

what makes you sure the inverter is damaged? have you tested battery voltage independently? to me i would think that the hairdryer dipped the battery voltage and thus the shut off.

Actually hair dryers can be particularly nasty for inverters, particularly when you use the half-speed settings as most hair dryers just use a diode rectifier for the half-speed which means that they then only draw current on one half of the AC cycle. This can cause the transformers to saturate and things can get really nasty. (Most heat guns do the same as well)

1 hour ago, Tiaan Pot said:

The Axpert setup has been ok over the last few years, but obviously not ideal as it couldn't  interface with the Polyntech batteries that I got beginning of this year.  Yea I know there are some guys in Pretoria that developed  some cable and software but frankly when I saw the price and interface I decided against it. 

What you call a hack job is actually a very good and mature product that would have assisted you in diagnosing your problem and quite frankly it would have avoided it completely. Since it manages the batteries and inverter properly you won't need to spend anything on a new inverter. You call it expensive? A R500 Pi, a R300 cable, a SD card + housing for the PI. Software licence with active development and support for less than R1000. But you consider a blue inverter and accessories that is about 4x more expensive...

But each to his own. I've always been more of a build something that ticks all my boxes person than spend a mountain of money for something that doesn't quite meet my requirements. 

2 hours ago, root said:

Since it manages the batteries and inverter properly

It can do no such thing. The Axpert is an off-grid inverter. It therefore by definition doesn't have the ability to control battery discharge, that depends solely on the loads. It also has no facility to control charge current.

The only thing that particular software does is implement support for reading the SOC, voltage and current values from the battery (much like it already did for a BMV). It can then log these things, and use the SOC to switch to/from grid.

But it does no management of the sort that battery makers require for warranty purposes (not applicable here since Pylontech has approved it for off-grid use), nor does it stop the battery from switching off (Pylontech batteries don't do voltage control, Voltronic's don't support current OR voltage control).

I also think the software is expensive (it's halfway towards an MS windows license), and having seen the source code some years ago... it really is a hack job.

Edited September 17, 20196 yr by plonkster

3 hours ago, Stanley said:

Actually hair dryers can be particularly nasty for inverters, particularly when you use the half-speed settings as most hair dryers just use a diode rectifier for the half-speed which means that they then only draw current on one half of the AC cycle. This can cause the transformers to saturate and things can get really nasty. (Most heat guns do the same as well)

O_O

2 hours ago, plonkster said:

It can do no such thing. The Axpert is an off-grid inverter. It therefore by definition doesn't have the ability to control battery discharge, that depends solely on the loads. It also has no facility to control charge current. 

The only thing that particular software does is implement support for reading the SOC, voltage and current values from the battery (much like it already did for a BMV). It can then log these things, and use the SOC to switch to/from grid.

But it does no management of the sort that battery makers require for warranty purposes (not applicable here since Pylontech has approved it for off-grid use), nor does it stop the battery from switching off (Pylontech batteries don't do voltage control, Voltronic's don't support current OR voltage control).

I also think the software is expensive (it's halfway towards an MS windows license), and having seen the source code some years ago... it really is a hack job.

Discharge control should be catered for by sizing the inverter and batteries correctly. I don't understand how you could control battery discharge in any other way. The load wants what it wants. 

Charge current control is set in the inverter and is facilitated by the software.

SOC control is key since the OP had his inverter switch off before the battery reached its cut off.

Since a ups and a off-grid inverter is pretty much the same thing. One derives its power from the grid the other from solar. Not sure why you are going off on this warranty tangent.

The software is cheap compared to a colour control setup and venus etc and most things blue. Which you would need even with a blue off-grid/ups setup. I know the blue stuff has on grid and grid tie benefits but both those are useless given the current legal framework and red tape. 

You of all people on this forum should know that software evolves and improves with time. What you saw a few years ago and whats currently running is most probably two very different things. Given that I didn't need to write my own hack job by your standards and could purchase something that works is a win. 

O and thanks for quoting only part of the sentence and losing the context it was used in.👏

Edited September 17, 20196 yr by root
correction

32 minutes ago, root said:

only part of the sentence and losing the context

My apologies, that was not my intent. I simply don't think either "manages" or "properly" would be words I would use in this context. Write that off as personal opinion if you will, but some of it isn't the fault of the software at all, it is inherent in the nature of the inverter.

I did miss some important context here: He said he uses it as a UPS during load-shedding. So I'm somewhat in no-man's land here. A true hybrid inverter can limit battery discharge by taking the difference from the grid, but in context (load shedding), of course that doesn't apply... so okay, guilty as charged.

Forget about the Warranty stuff. I did point out it does not apply since the off-grid use is allowed. I should learn not to toss red herrings 🙂 I was contrasting the levels of control between this and other systems where the control part is absolutely essential (and warranties are voided if you don't have it). For example LG-Resu. The "control" is neither present nor needed in this case.

41 minutes ago, root said:

SOC control is key since the OP had his inverter switch off before the battery reached its cut off.

I know that software can flip the inverter's mode (all that SBU etc stuff) according to the SOC, but I was not aware (open to be corrected) that it can switch it off. The usual practice is that you let the BMS decide when the battery is empty, and then the BMS switches it off. Which again means that whatever software solution you have in place is merely logging data, not making decisions, not managing anything.

44 minutes ago, root said:

cheap compared to a colour control setup and venus

Venus is free. The hardware costs a little something though. For an apples to apples comparison you have to look at something closer to the Rpi (no LCD screen), but even then a Venus-GX has 5 analog inputs, 5 digital inputs, two canbus ports, two relays, ethernet, two WiFi interfaces, and a built-in 70VDC power supply in a neat case. It costs around 4k. If you run Venus on an Rpi you're closer to apples for apples.

54 minutes ago, root said:

should know that software evolves and improves with time

Yeaaah... I also know when you should salvage the idea but throw away the code. Over the years I've kept my mouth shut about this stuff, but after multiple incidents over the years between the supplier and friends/co-workers that has in the latest case resulted in paying customers being shafted, I have decided no more. I cannot support this product.

10 hours ago, root said:

Software licence with active development and support for less than R1000.

@root, this is by no means trying to pick a fight. I have used both systems, I have spend  quit a bit of time with Manie  when he developed ICC, some of the work in the beginning was done on my Inverters and his Software is mainly a monitoring program. He works with Figures that he reads from different inverters and lately they can make a few changes to the settings, or even switch a bit on and off from ICC, but that is it. 

Blue is more expensive because it can do more. ESS is completely in a different class. Its not only designed for for reading values and displaying it, its designed for control, it manages all the different components in the system, monitor it, save it, change it ext ext ext. And truthfully is does a brilliant job of it. Victron can log in through this ESS system and tel me exactly what is wrong with my inverter, or what is causing it not to charge the battery and even that i have a loose connection one of the wires on my MPPT. 

ICC still has a very long way to go to reach that point, but all of the added functions is definitely worth the extra money.

Now lets compare support. Manie (Let me add this first), is doing a great job under circumstances, developing, his normal day job, may i add "shift work" support, family life ext.. but its a one man show. What if he fell sick, crises at work, family needs him............ what will happen to the support?

Victron - open source - bunch of engineers -  and if one is not at work, or on leave, or tired of coding and resigns, what will happen to support........... exactly what happens now, the  next guy takes the ticket and sorts it out. 

Their is no comparison, so why compare price? 

 

Lets look at it carefully:
You don't need ICC nor VenusGX for UPS functionality, either is nice to have with UPS only functionality.
VenusGX comes with support and with firmware upgrades at +-R4k and with ESS it is light years ahead of most solar applications out there - incl for free.
ICC on a Pi and all that is needed costs about R3k - R3.5k. Now add a ICC upgrade, or two, and ICC is more expensive than a VenusGX, which is updated for free.
Or go the Pi route and get the VenusGX software free if you don't want "plug and play" the VenusGX box provides.

So that sorts ICC and VenusGX comparison. Tit for tat ito upfront costs, after which ICC loses the race.

Now a 5kva Axpert cost about the same as a 3kva MPII - so apples for apples really.
Both needs batteries - apples for apples again.
Victron gets more expensive than the Axpert when you add a MPPT ... BUT ...
The real kicker, the ONLY time you really save a lot of money with solar, is when you go hybrid grid tied with ESS that Victron supplies for free with a VenusGX.

So the cost of that Victron MPPT is immensely mitigated when going grid tied - 10 to 12 months of saving R1k per month and the ROI is done and dusted, and you still have 4 year warranty on that MPPT and MKII.
Note: Axpert + ICC = +- the same costs as a hybrid Victron MPII with VenusGX - so that cost is apples for apples.

 

So as I said above:
If UPS is the one and only need then get a 5kva Axpert.
If there is ANY chance of wanting to go grid tied in the future, to make some real savings, then go Victron.

Because if one ever changes their mind, you want to go grid tied one day, remember the NRS inverter list.
Axperts are not on that list so going grid tied one day means Axpert now becomes double the price of a Victron kit. 🙂 

What have I missed?

Edited September 17, 20196 yr by Guest

Hi Guys

Thank you so much for all the assistance.  Ill be doing a more research on the Victron equipment ( I need to understand everything in detail before I commit)

 

Apologies if my comment offended anyone with regards to ICC,  I can see now that it came across rather rude.  My buddy that also gives advice is a real nerd and he bought the ICC software, at the time he found a few mistakes in the software. Being a super nice guy he email the ICC guy with the fixes and even some suggestions for improvements out of the good of his heart and got shot down. So maybe some hurt egos as well when he described it to me  as a hack job.  Seems like some here even know him personally so again Im sorry for the insult.

 

42 minutes ago, Tiaan Pot said:

Apologies if my comment offended anyone with regards to ICC

ICC is a sensitive issue on this forum. It was the reason of many disagreements on this forum in the past, so it doesnt take much mention of it to fuel the fire again... 

I have sent you a Private Message. "Little envelope" top right of your screen. 

Thanks all for the responses. We are starting to get this thread constructive again. When I wrote my reply ICC was shot down and made out to be junk. Which it isn't and since I'm also fairly new to the forum I missed the earlier software wars. Small mercies.

I use ICC in two large off-grid setups. Axperts and a bunch of pylons. It works beautifully for me given my requirements. Sure the Victron stuff is great but it is expensive. I also don't think given the current legal framework that ESS or going hybrid can even be used. Please correct me here if I'm wrong.

The core of my initial post was supposed to be, to tell the OP to try out ICC first given that it will solve his problems for the least amount of money. It will also help diagnose the issues he currently has without having to replace invertors. There is a trial option for ICC and it should give him a glimpse of what is currently available.

Lastly in my experience I've see quite a few one man github/lab projects run a lot longer and be better supported than a corporate setup. The corporate project gets canned quickly and the source code is then lost forever in the IP law dungeon. Sure Manie's stuff isn't open source now. But I'm hoping it would be one day if the decides to let go of it.

1 hour ago, root said:

... I'm also fairly new to the forum ...

True, you where also not aware of the "sensitivity" around "software" on the forum. Some SHOULD have also been more "merciful" to you too. 🙂  

 

FYI. As I posted above. ICC with all that is needed to make it work cost more or less same as a VenusGX (if you shop right).
And at the time the "wars" raged the Pi was discussed to death ito costs vs (at that time) a Windows Tablet that for R1.8k that had a screen, kbd / mouse AND a battery backup all included in the tablet.
And as I said, VenusGX software is free ... just get a RPi ... if you want to go Pi for Pi. 

So, the fact is: ICC + Axpert works .. actually it is a requirement WITH a BMV if you have lead acid batteries and there is NO debate about that.
After you have patched the Axpert firmware off course, compliments from Aus, not the manufacturer.

So in my mind it is not a debate when comparing a "freight ship" with a Nissan bakkie ... VenusGX vs ICC. That is where it gets uncomfortable.
ESS (See it as Victron's AI) is free so are Venus updates (requests from users) leaving ICC far behind.
And ... one more thought ... the VensuGX is yours to use on any and all Victron equipment you have as there is no license key required, if ever you replace components. 
 

1 hour ago, root said:

I also don't think given the current legal framework that ESS or going hybrid can even be used. Please correct me here if I'm wrong.

I have a ESS hybrid grid tied system signed off under the new legislation here in CoCT. Actually in the process of re-applying as I made material changes.

So I can say with confidence: 
1) No red tape, just national regulations.
2) Not that cumbersome nor difficult at all - if you stick to the rules.
3) AND the tests required saved my bacon ito discovering a faulty earth on the house to boot. If the house burn down and they found that was the cause, no claim.

 

1 hour ago, root said:

Sure the Victron stuff is great but it is expensive.

Not really. On face to face pricing, yes, but not when you truly start digging into the actual and costs / grid savings / soft and other perceived benefits.
Clever guys from Aus ito the firmware upgrades / KettleKomp and ICC has made Axperts viable in SA. They saved a few peoples bacon, as did the Victron BMV ... 🙂 

And remember: The only place where off-grid will save you some serious money, compared to a grid tied system, is when you have a Eskom connection fee to your plot / farm.

A 3kva grid tied inverter takes a massive chunk of money away from Eskom / Munic as every single watt the panels can produce, is off-set against that Eskom bill - and you can get away with 1 x 2.4kw Plyontech battery bank easy.

So, comparing Axperts with Victron is not a fair comparison as it is off grid vs grid tied.
Comparing Victron with GoodWE / SMA etc, yes ... but then Victron still beats them both ito Open Source ... and ESS. 😜

2 hours ago, root said:

When I wrote my reply ICC was shot down and made out to be junk.

Hey, I would also like to apologise for inflaming things. After the Centurion Solar thing, I decided not to be so damn diplomatic about this product anymore. Regardless of who is at fault, end consumers found themselves out in the cold overnight (sorry... can't upgrade unless you pay for a new key). Even if the product is good, I'm not sure you can trust it.

Back when the licence was 30USD and the ZAR was below 15/USD, I could argue that it's less than R450, therefore about the cost of a vedirect-usb cable, and completely justifiable. Then the price doubled.

Three things are true as far as I am concerned, the first is that there is presently nothing like ICC and it works well. The second is that there is room for something better, something with a coding style, well thought out module names, community participation, and so on. The third is that the product costs too much. At it's previous price it was not an issue.

That is my opinion, not based in anything other than my subjective (sometimes emotional) understanding.

 

1 hour ago, plonkster said:

That is my opinion, not based in anything other than my subjective (sometimes emotional) understanding.

We need to let it go - let the chips fall where they fall. 🤔😎

43 minutes ago, DaveSA said:

NOTE: due to limitations in the types of applications, SegenSolar does not recommend Pylontech batteries to be used with Victron inverters in off-grid mode

Yes, I saw that too.

Now IF memory serves AND I understood correctly, @plonkster made a very good point on a post somewhere on another matter around Pylontech batts and Victron.

Extrapolating from that post, in my words re. Pylontech with ANY off-grid setup incl Victron:
1) With Victron: Don't enable ESS. ESS is for grid tied only.
2) Don't match the loads to the batts ... match the batts to the load.
3) EDIT: Make sure the loads you run off the inverter, that they fall within the batts peak amps deliverable.

Edited September 18, 20196 yr by Guest

13 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Now IF memory serves AND I understood correctly, @plonkster made a very good point on a post somewhere on another matter around Pylontech batts and Victron.

This "not recommended" thing is completely bonkers. The Victron inverter is more capable than the Voltronic. In all settings. If the Pylontech can be used offgrid with a Voltronic, it can be used off-grid with a Victron inverter. End of story. To say anything else means you don't understand the problem.

The problem for SOME batteries (LG Resu for example) is that they have strict discharge current limits, strict as in if you overdo it and you damage the battery the warranty is void. Those batteries can't be used in an offgrid system. Any off-grid system.

Perhaps this is a bit like when you say to your wife: I think you are really smart, and she gets all upset because you told her she is fat.

🙂

47 minutes ago, plonkster said:

This "not recommended" thing is completely bonkers.

Good, I got it right.

Why do you think Plonk, is Segen putting it out there that they do not recommend Pylontech batteries with Victron inverters in off-grid mode?
What is the "problem" with Pylontech batteries and a off-grid Victron, bar the current limit on 1 x 2.4kw battery?

EDIT: I emailed Segen ... lets see what they say.

Edited September 19, 20196 yr by Guest