Wanting to upgrade from Axpert to Victron

[jasonvanwyk]

Hi Forum.

I currently have my set-up as below (In my signature)

My Axperts have been faulty - I have now returned them to the supplier for a second time to have them "checked out" to see what's wrong with them.

I'm particularly upset at the moment, with it being load shedding and me being without my inverters.

I'm thinking about upgrading my set-up to victrons (perhaps 2 x 5kw inverters). Could I please ask for some advice/pointers in this regard. I understand victron are expensive, but I'm willing to pay for something that works well. I also like very much the professional monitoring software that comes with victron. I'm just not sure how the setup would look like. i.e. grid-tied or hybrid or off-grid. I'd like to be off-grid as much as possible. I have borehole/swimming pool and two pressure pumps, so my peak power usage is as high at 7-8kw at times.

Many thanks in advance.

[Jaco De Jongh]

21 minutes ago, jasonvanwyk said:

(perhaps 2 x 5kw inverters).

You also have the option to go for the Quattro 8000 or 10000va unit

[jasonvanwyk]

Could you explain to me the differences. For some reason, victron seems complicated to me.

[Jaco De Jongh]

7 hours ago, jasonvanwyk said:

Could you explain to me the differences

The Quattro is a bigger robust unit, with 2 inputs and 2 outputs. the multi have 1 input and 2 outputs, 

Quattro:(Not grid Compliant on its own) 

1. AC in 1 = Generator and when it sees this a voltage on this input, it will use it instead of AC input 2. 
2. AC in 2 = Grid, once it fails and you start the generator, the Quattro will automatically change Use AC in 1
3. AC Out 1 is for all your critical loads, and the output remains on during a Power outage.
4. AC Out 2 is for non critical loads, and the output will switch off during a power Outage.  

Multi: (Grid Compliant) 

1. Only AC in 1 and the same 2 outputs as the Quattro. 

7 hours ago, jasonvanwyk said:

victron seems complicated to me

We will talk you through it, not that complicated, just takes a little getting use too. 

[jasonvanwyk]

Thanks Jaco.

I live in Matatiele (Southern Drakensberg on the border of Lesotho, KZN and EC).

Ive been looking at my max Load per hour (1 min intervals), over the last two months, which I downloaded via my ICC and EMONCMS. 

On 2 days I had a max load of above 9000w for 19 min and 29 min (I have had contractors)

on 7  different days my load was between 8000 - 9000w, for an avg of 38 minutes each

on 12 different days my load was between 7000 - 8000w for an avg of 46 minutes each

on 22 different days my load was between 6000 - 7000w for an avg of 55 minutes each

on 33 different days my load was between 5000 - 6000w for an avg of 64 minutes each

on 49 different days my load was between 4000 - 5000w for an avg of 92 minutes each

1. Will the quattro 8000 still be sufficient for me, meaning, will the inverter automatically draw from the grid, if my load exceeds 8000w?
2. I have a 5000w petrol generator (wired to a change over switch) will that work with the quattro? (The axperts, didn't seem to like the frequency of the generator and wouldn't let the voltage through).
3. I have 28 x 280w panels (7480w array)
4. I have no electric geysers, Gas Hob, but electric oven (my wife bakes), pool pump, 2 x pressure pumps and borehole.

Once again, many thanks for your help. 

[Jaco De Jongh]

25 minutes ago, jasonvanwyk said:

Will the quattro 8000 still be sufficient for me, meaning, will the inverter automatically draw from the grid, if my load exceeds 8000w?

I will go for the 10000VA / 8000Watt unit. The 8000 I spoke about above is a 6500Watt /  8000VA. 

And to answer the question, the Quattro will pass through any current above the 8000watt rating..

28 minutes ago, jasonvanwyk said:

(The axperts, didn't seem to like the frequency of the generator and wouldn't let the voltage through).

Victron is more forgiving though,, 

29 minutes ago, jasonvanwyk said:

I have 28 x 280w panels (7480w array)

You will need at least two MPPT.s to handle that. 

30 minutes ago, jasonvanwyk said:

I have no electric geysers, Gas Hob, but electric oven (my wife bakes), pool pump, 2 x pressure pumps and borehole.

With a timer or two, you should be able to manage those loads without much trouble. 

[___]

OK, so to add to Jaco's excellent email, here is a video explaining some of it. All the Victron inverters essentially use the same platform. It's a bit like LEGO, you can select different options, but the components are mostly the same. The larger inverters will have a different "power pack" (basically bigger MOSFETs) and larger transformers, but the rest remains very similar. The Quattro has two transfer switches so you can have two AC sources, but again, it remains very similar to the Multi in all other respects. Even the Phoenix inverters (which is only an inverter, they don't charge batteries and can't tie with the grid) has the same inverter component as the Multi, it's just missing the transfer switch and AC power supply

(Man, Jono has an excellent narrator's voice).

 

[___]

On 2019/12/07 at 12:25 PM, jasonvanwyk said:

I'm particularly upset at the moment, with it being load shedding and me being without my inverters.

Completely understandable, and not to rub salt into wounds, but it's actually amazing how sales to the competition isn't really a problem where lower quality is involved. After saving money on a Ranger, many people buy a Hilux the next time

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by plonkster

[2una]

On 2019/12/08 at 6:15 PM, jasonvanwyk said:

I have a 5000w petrol generator (wired to a change over switch) will that work with the quattro? (The axperts, didn't seem to like the frequency of the generator and wouldn't let the voltage through).

I'm not running a quattro but a multiplus II on a change over & it accepts generator power fine (honda eu30is).

 

[jasonvanwyk]

On 2019/12/09 at 10:32 AM, plonkster said:

Completely understandable, and not to rub salt into wounds, but it's actually amazing how sales to the competition isn't really a problem where lower quality is involved. After saving money on a Ranger, many people buy a Hilux the next time

 

 i'm finding that out

[jasonvanwyk]

19 hours ago, 2una said:

I'm not running a quattro but a multiplus II on a change over & it accepts generator power fine (honda eu30is).

 

Thanks 2una, good to know

[jasonvanwyk]

On 2019/12/09 at 10:23 AM, plonkster said:

OK, so to add to Jaco's excellent email, here is a video explaining some of it. All the Victron inverters essentially use the same platform. It's a bit like LEGO, you can select different options, but the components are mostly the same. The larger inverters will have a different "power pack" (basically bigger MOSFETs) and larger transformers, but the rest remains very similar. The Quattro has two transfer switches so you can have two AC sources, but again, it remains very similar to the Multi in all other respects. Even the Phoenix inverters (which is only an inverter, they don't charge batteries and can't tie with the grid) has the same inverter component as the Multi, it's just missing the transfer switch and AC power supply

(Man, Jono has an excellent narrator's voice).

 

This is great - Thanks!

[KLEVA]

I don't think that many people on this forum doubt the fact that Victron "The Blue" seems to almost always be a superior setup (might even say product, but might get shot at by a few). The best part about a Victron setup is that it is like "LEGO", you buy the part you need to do the exact job you want. Almost all of the other systems are trying to do a combination of jobs all at once, not at all bad jobs, but if you have a large load then the system you buy will have "larger" inputs, "larger" PV Voltages, "larger" battery voltages, etc - The whole setup is scaled to make it simpler. But the Victron kit, like "LEGO" comes at a premium price - sometimes completely outweighing the benefit (My humble opinion, not others).

From what you have explained in your signature, you have a very large and powerful system, and I would have NEVER recommended an Axpert (basically a very advanced UPS) to provide you with your power needs - Again in my humble opinion, if you ever need more than 1 Axpert 5KVA (which can allow over 10KVA easily), then your installation was wrongly advised. Axperts (or similar) are great as backup systems in a small environment, and some on this forum have made excellent use of them in even larger ones (I was one of them for a while), but you do have to think of an Axpert as and either "off-grid" or "backup" solution. I have a 2.5KVA 24V Mecer Invertor with a PWM solar input at the office that behaves better than an Axpert!

So, as final advice - It boils down to money (it always does). If you can afford to get a proper Victron installer & advisor (the advisor part is important to know your "LEGO") to replace your Axperts, then go that route, if not, then look at the combo "do most of it in one" units, like the Quattro (go for the 2 input one seeing as you already have an autostart generator). None of these will be as cheap as 2 x Axperts, but they are not in the same arena.

PS: The Axperts, like many UPS's, can't handle the stepped sine-wave that the Generator supplies, they expect a sinusoidal wave, or a lot more closer than what most local (read South African supplied) generators put out. If your generator is an autostart, then I would expect it to give a decent sinusoidal wave output or something close. There is a chap on this forum who is an expert on Axperts called @Coulomb (The Axpert Whisperer), and I hope that he may respond and provide a little more insight. He may be able to help you with a few settings that could get slightly more life out of them for a while. But my thinking is that you need to look at something else soon (you seem to have spent a lot of money on the other parts of your install, and the Axperts just don't seem to fit into that?).

[jasonvanwyk]

Ok, so i've decided on the quattro 10000va (8000w). My current panel array is 28 x 280w (7840w). My strings from my previous setup is is 4 strings. I think its wired as 4 x(7 panels in series). Could someone explain if I would need to re-string my set-up to accommodate the quattro, and how many charge controllers I would need, and how it all fits together and why.

Many thanks in advance. 

[jasonvanwyk]

19 hours ago, KLEVA said:

I don't think that many people on this forum doubt the fact that Victron "The Blue" seems to almost always be a superior setup (might even say product, but might get shot at by a few). The best part about a Victron setup is that it is like "LEGO", you buy the part you need to do the exact job you want. Almost all of the other systems are trying to do a combination of jobs all at once, not at all bad jobs, but if you have a large load then the system you buy will have "larger" inputs, "larger" PV Voltages, "larger" battery voltages, etc - The whole setup is scaled to make it simpler. But the Victron kit, like "LEGO" comes at a premium price - sometimes completely outweighing the benefit (My humble opinion, not others).

From what you have explained in your signature, you have a very large and powerful system, and I would have NEVER recommended an Axpert (basically a very advanced UPS) to provide you with your power needs - Again in my humble opinion, if you ever need more than 1 Axpert 5KVA (which can allow over 10KVA easily), then your installation was wrongly advised. Axperts (or similar) are great as backup systems in a small environment, and some on this forum have made excellent use of them in even larger ones (I was one of them for a while), but you do have to think of an Axpert as and either "off-grid" or "backup" solution. I have a 2.5KVA 24V Mecer Invertor with a PWM solar input at the office that behaves better than an Axpert!

So, as final advice - It boils down to money (it always does). If you can afford to get a proper Victron installer & advisor (the advisor part is important to know your "LEGO") to replace your Axperts, then go that route, if not, then look at the combo "do most of it in one" units, like the Quattro (go for the 2 input one seeing as you already have an autostart generator). None of these will be as cheap as 2 x Axperts, but they are not in the same arena.

PS: The Axperts, like many UPS's, can't handle the stepped sine-wave that the Generator supplies, they expect a sinusoidal wave, or a lot more closer than what most local (read South African supplied) generators put out. If your generator is an autostart, then I would expect it to give a decent sinusoidal wave output or something close. There is a chap on this forum who is an expert on Axperts called @Coulomb (The Axpert Whisperer), and I hope that he may respond and provide a little more insight. He may be able to help you with a few settings that could get slightly more life out of them for a while. But my thinking is that you need to look at something else soon (you seem to have spent a lot of money on the other parts of your install, and the Axperts just don't seem to fit into that?).

Thanks Kleva, all your and others opinions are definately helping me to form the bigger picture of how solar and PV actually work in SA. Much appreciated