charlez Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 Error 08 happened this morning again: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APV Posted May 15, 2020 Author Share Posted May 15, 2020 I can confirm that my unit also shutdown in the early morning hours. It was raining then. I disconnected the solar panels and it did not happen again (as would normally be the case) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APV Posted May 25, 2020 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 I have encountered another issue. Every time it rains, the earth leakage unit on my house DB trips. This morning when it did it, I measured the AC voltage between ground and the PV input - 130VAC!!!! The source of the floating voltage is the inverter, not the panels. Why would this happen? I thought the PV input was 100% isolated from the rest of the circuit!!! This is probably part of my problems with the Error 08 issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlez Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 This morning got Error 08 again after some rain. Thanks to @APV by isolating the PV array I was able to restart the inverter without it crashing again. With the PV array connected the bus voltage would have spike again requiring multiple starts. My earth leakage did not trip. APV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulomb Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, APV said: I thought the PV input was 100% isolated from the rest of the circuit!!! This is probably part of my problems with the Error 08 issue... No, none of the solar charge controllers are isolated. The only isolation is between the battery and the DC bus. So for the 145 V max SCCs, they get isolation from the AC-out because they connect to the battery. But Axpert MKS IIs (as discussed in this topic) have a boost converter that connects directly to the DC bus. So you'll see chopped 230 V on the panel wires (with the high frequency component attenuated a little by a common mode choke). So you must be getting leakage from some panel wire / connector / inline fuse / panel junction box) to earth when it rains, causing the trip. Huh. Who said Axpert MKS IIs don't have insulation monitoring? Of course, if it was proper insulation monitoring, it presumably could just show a warning and disconnect the PV, rather than black out the whole house. Though I'm not certain that the MKS II SCCs have a relay that can disconnect their output from the DC bus. [ Edit: it looks like there isn't. Sigh. ] Edited May 26, 2020 by Coulomb charlez 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APV Posted May 26, 2020 Author Share Posted May 26, 2020 5 hours ago, Coulomb said: No, none of the solar charge controllers are isolated. The only isolation is between the battery and the DC bus. So for the 145 V max SCCs, they get isolation from the AC-out because they connect to the battery. But Axpert MKS IIs (as discussed in this topic) have a boost converter that connects directly to the DC bus. So you'll see chopped 230 V on the panel wires (with the high frequency component attenuated a little by a common mode choke). So you must be getting leakage from some panel wire / connector / inline fuse / panel junction box) to earth when it rains, causing the trip. Huh. Who said Axpert MKS IIs don't have insulation monitoring? Of course, if it was proper insulation monitoring, it presumably could just show a warning and disconnect the PV, rather than black out the whole house. Though I'm not certain that the MKS II SCCs have a relay that can disconnect their output from the DC bus. [ Edit: it looks like there isn't. Sigh. ] It is very likely that the panel wires get wet. The connectors between the panels are currently just lying on the roof. Even though they are supposed to be waterproof, there probably is a bit of leakage when the roof gets wet. So firstly, I shall have to try and lift the connectors off the roof, where possible. If that does not solve the problem, I guess I shall have to build a 1:1 isolation circuit myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlez Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 Hi @APV I must confess I also took a short-cut and my pv wires are also just lying on the roof. Do you think that if I cable tie them to the rails that would be good enough? By the way they these are the panels: 330 WATT POLY CANADIAN SOLAR PANELS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APV Posted May 26, 2020 Author Share Posted May 26, 2020 1 minute ago, charlez said: Hi @APV I must confess I also took a short-cut and my pv wires are also just lying on the roof. Do you think that if I cable tie them to the rails that would be good enough? By the way they these are the panels: 330 WATT POLY CANADIAN SOLAR PANELS Hallo @charlez I believe that simply lifting them from the surface of the roof with cable ties (or whatever) should be fine. It will be quite a mission for me to modify my wiring, since I have grouped the panes in a chunk of 8x2 with only a 1cm gap between them. Hopefully I can reach the cables from the lower and upper sides of the array... My problems only occur in fairly heavy rains. I use the CANADIAN SOLAR 405W SUPER HIGH POWER POLY PERC HIKU panels with MC4 connectors, so it is the same brand... charlez 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rddkrn Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 1 hour ago, APV said: My problems only occur in fairly heavy rains. I use the CANADIAN SOLAR 405W SUPER HIGH POWER POLY PERC HIKU panels with MC4 connectors, so it is the same brand... Hello guys... My problem is the same as yours when it rains. My panels is Canadian Solar 315W Poly. It's just a coincidence or there is a problem with Canadian Solar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APV Posted May 26, 2020 Author Share Posted May 26, 2020 @rddkrn Are your connectors laying on the roof, or are they tied up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rddkrn Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 22 minutes ago, APV said: @rddkrn Are your connectors laying on the roof, or are they tied up? Laying on the roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APV Posted May 26, 2020 Author Share Posted May 26, 2020 6 minutes ago, rddkrn said: Laying on the roof. OK, so now there are 3 of us with the same type of installation and the same issue - I smell a rat charlez 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlez Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 3 hours ago, APV said: OK, so now there are 3 of us with the same type of installation and the same issue - I smell a rat Hope this works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rddkrn Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 @charlez, I am waiting your good news... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlez Posted May 26, 2020 Share Posted May 26, 2020 No water and crashed with the 08 error after being on bypass for a few hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APV Posted May 27, 2020 Author Share Posted May 27, 2020 10 hours ago, charlez said: No water and crashed with the 08 error after being on bypass for a few hours. That is bad news @charlez :( If (and only if) moisture is part of the problem, it could be that the cables were not completely dry after laying on the roof. So maybe there still was some leakage in your case... I have to tie mine up like you did in any case, since rain causes my earth leakage to trip. So my system is even worse than yours :) charlez 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlez Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 @APV was hoping this was the problem. The way I see it now is: Does not seem to be leakage because of poor wiring protocol. Could be a problem with Canadian Solar with water ingress. Not a specific earthing problem with my setup. I have earthed the panels to a panel specific earth spike. My PV panels are isolated via a DC breaker and surge protector. All this still points to the Axpert, most likely firmware but obviously could be hardware. Even is the panels had an internal issue the leakage should be isolated and not cause a high bus voltage issue, but this is something I know very little about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APV Posted May 27, 2020 Author Share Posted May 27, 2020 9 minutes ago, charlez said: @APV was hoping this was the problem. The way I see it now is: Does not seem to be leakage because of poor wiring protocol. Could be a problem with Canadian Solar with water ingress. Not a specific earthing problem with my setup. I have earthed the panels to a panel specific earth spike. My PV panels are isolated via a DC breaker and surge protector. All this still points to the Axpert, most likely firmware but obviously could be hardware. Even is the panels had an internal issue the leakage should be isolated and not cause a high bus voltage issue, but this is something I know very little about. Unfortunately the PV input of the Axpert is not isolated as @Coulomb pointed out. So this means any leakage to earth on the panels, whether through connectors or the panels itself, can be a contributing factor towards our problems. However as @JustinSchoeman pointed out, it definitely is not the only factor. He uses the Axpert as a UPS only, so there are no panels involved!!! I hope his setup is the exception to the rule. The earth leakage issue does seem to be very relevant in the other cases, since you ( @charlez ) have also managed to prevent further occurrences of Error 08 by simply isolating the panels (after the first occurrence of the error). charlez 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rddkrn Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 I have a simple and stupid solution for error 08. Because I can monitor the bus voltage from my inverter, I made a code in my Home Assistant that will change the inverter to SBU if the bus voltage is more than 480 V. And that has saved me from error 08 several times. This is my bus voltage yesterday, when it rained the bus voltage rose several times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlez Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 5 minutes ago, rddkrn said: I have a simple and stupid solution for error 08. Because I can monitor the bus voltage from my inverter, I made a code in my Home Assistant that will change the inverter to SBU if the bus voltage is more than 480 V. And that has saved me from error 08 several times. This is my bus voltage yesterday, when it rained the bus voltage rose several times. @rddkrn thanks for this. Something I have been wanting to do. Would you mind sharing your code? Is it Python? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rddkrn Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 @charlez, I'm using Hassio Home Assistant in my computer. I m not progamer guy so I just follow some tutorials in the internet. I gues the code is not Python, it's written in yaml file. You can find it in Google by keyword. "hassio mpp solar inverters". charlez 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlez Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 Hi all, thought I would share this. Spent whole day on bypass, rainy day with very little power generated. PV panels connected, bus voltage has risen to 480V at about 17:30. ================ Status ================== Parameter Value Unit ac_input_frequency 49.8 Hz ac_input_voltage 226.6 V ac_output_active_power 0992 W ac_output_apparent_power 1065 VA ac_output_frequency 49.8 Hz ac_output_load 021 % ac_output_voltage 226.6 V battery_capacity 057 % battery_charging_current 000 A battery_discharge_current 00000 A battery_voltage 49.90 V battery_voltage_from_scc 00.00 V bus_voltage 480 V inverter_heat_sink_temperature 0031 Deg_C is_ac_charging_on 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_battery_voltage_to_steady_while_charging 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_charging_on 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_configuration_changed 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_load_on 1 True - 1/False - 0 is_sbu_priority_version_added 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_scc_charging_on 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_scc_firmware_updated 0 True - 1/False - 0 pv_input_current_for_battery 0000 A pv_input_voltage 000.0 V unknown_value_in_byte_response 010 PV panels disconnected, bus voltage drops ================ Status ================== Parameter Value Unit ac_input_frequency 49.8 Hz ac_input_voltage 227.7 V ac_output_active_power 1042 W ac_output_apparent_power 1161 VA ac_output_frequency 49.8 Hz ac_output_load 023 % ac_output_voltage 227.7 V battery_capacity 057 % battery_charging_current 000 A battery_discharge_current 00000 A battery_voltage 49.90 V battery_voltage_from_scc 00.00 V bus_voltage 442 V inverter_heat_sink_temperature 0031 Deg_C is_ac_charging_on 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_battery_voltage_to_steady_while_charging 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_charging_on 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_configuration_changed 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_load_on 1 True - 1/False - 0 is_sbu_priority_version_added 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_scc_charging_on 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_scc_firmware_updated 0 True - 1/False - 0 pv_input_current_for_battery 0000 A pv_input_voltage 000.0 V unknown_value_in_byte_response 010 Thanks Charles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulomb Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 On 2020/05/15 at 4:52 PM, APV said: I can confirm that my unit also shutdown in the early morning hours. It was raining then. On 2020/05/26 at 12:36 AM, charlez said: This morning got Error 08 again after some rain. On 2020/05/26 at 6:50 PM, charlez said: Hi @APV I must confess I also took a short-cut and my pv wires are also just lying on the roof. On 2020/05/26 at 6:59 PM, APV said: My problems only occur in fairly heavy rains. On 2020/05/26 at 8:56 PM, rddkrn said: My problem is the same as yours when it rains. On 2020/05/26 at 9:21 PM, rddkrn said: Laying on the roof. I've been thinking about a mechanism for this. When in battery mode (i.e. the inverter proper is powering loads), the bus connects alternately connects right way up and upside down at 100 changes per second. It also switches on and off (floating) at IGBT switching frequency (~38 kHz) to make the sine wave, but that gets smoothed out by the common mode choke at the PV panel connections. So there are times when the neutral output (which is about the same potential as earth) is more positive than the negative end of the DC bus (the reference for the PV boost converter), at times by more than 300 V. If this leaks to the PV input that isn't referenced to DC bus negative, then up to 300 V is available to the boost converter input. This is well over the 120 V minimum start voltage, so it starts operating the boost converter. There is little current available, but the MPPT knows how to extract the maximum power from it, and boost that to the present bus voltage. If the load happens to be low, it might be possible to power the load and a little bit more; the little bit more has nowhere to go other than to charge the bus capacitors to higher and higher voltage. But in @charlez's example above, the output power is 992 W when the bus voltage hit 480 V. I can imagine perhaps 100 mA at an average of say 200 V leaking into the PV input, but that's only 20 W. So what might be happening is that somehow the bulk of the load power is supplied by the battery, and the PV power (which the control system is not expecting) is only supplying the difference between load power and power from the battery-to-bus DC-DC converter. As I type this, it seems pretty unlikely, unless it's some sort of overshoot thing, where water suddenly creates a significant path where there was none before, and the sadly too common overshoot that Axperts are prone to is what triggers the fault code 08. Even that seems a bit far fetched. In Charlez's graph, the load power does seem low at the right hand end, so maybe the load was very low (< 20 W) until just before the bus voltage hit 480 V, and perhaps a fridge startup or other load just happened to come on at the time of the sample. Again, it seems a bit of a stretch. Can anyone dig into their logs and either support or shoot down at least the very low load theory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlez Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 Thanks @Coulomb. I have a 350w pump that runs 24/7 so unlikely that the load dropped below that. I do have a 1hp pump supplying water to the house connected and fridge connected. These are the defining features of the problem as I see them: Load around 15% No PV voltage But PV breaker connected Bypass mode Moisture on panels Been in bypass mode for quite a while, multiple hours Rained the whole night on and off. Disconnected the panels and the unit stayed up all night. Still raining but panels producing some power at 1 or 2 amps. Bus voltage stable. ================ Status ================== Parameter Value Unit ac_input_frequency 49.9 Hz ac_input_voltage 232.5 V ac_output_active_power 0666 W ac_output_apparent_power 0697 VA ac_output_frequency 49.9 Hz ac_output_load 013 % ac_output_voltage 232.5 V battery_capacity 057 % battery_charging_current 002 A battery_discharge_current 00000 A battery_voltage 49.90 V battery_voltage_from_scc 00.00 V bus_voltage 372 V inverter_heat_sink_temperature 0033 Deg_C is_ac_charging_on 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_battery_voltage_to_steady_while_charging 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_charging_on 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_configuration_changed 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_load_on 1 True - 1/False - 0 is_sbu_priority_version_added 0 True - 1/False - 0 is_scc_charging_on 1 True - 1/False - 0 is_scc_firmware_updated 0 True - 1/False - 0 pv_input_current_for_battery 0002 A pv_input_voltage 130.0 V unknown_value_in_byte_response 010 Need to put that script together to monitor bus voltage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APV Posted May 29, 2020 Author Share Posted May 29, 2020 5 hours ago, Coulomb said: I've been thinking about a mechanism for this. When in battery mode (i.e. the inverter proper is powering loads), the bus connects alternately connects right way up and upside down at 100 changes per second. It also switches on and off (floating) at IGBT switching frequency (~38 kHz) to make the sine wave, but that gets smoothed out by the common mode choke at the PV panel connections. So there are times when the neutral output (which is about the same potential as earth) is more positive than the negative end of the DC bus (the reference for the PV boost converter), at times by more than 300 V. If this leaks to the PV input that isn't referenced to DC bus negative, then up to 300 V is available to the boost converter input. This is well over the 120 V minimum start voltage, so it starts operating the boost converter. There is little current available, but the MPPT knows how to extract the maximum power from it, and boost that to the present bus voltage. If the load happens to be low, it might be possible to power the load and a little bit more; the little bit more has nowhere to go other than to charge the bus capacitors to higher and higher voltage. But in @charlez's example above, the output power is 992 W when the bus voltage hit 480 V. I can imagine perhaps 100 mA at an average of say 200 V leaking into the PV input, but that's only 20 W. So what might be happening is that somehow the bulk of the load power is supplied by the battery, and the PV power (which the control system is not expecting) is only supplying the difference between load power and power from the battery-to-bus DC-DC converter. As I type this, it seems pretty unlikely, unless it's some sort of overshoot thing, where water suddenly creates a significant path where there was none before, and the sadly too common overshoot that Axperts are prone to is what triggers the fault code 08. Even that seems a bit far fetched. In Charlez's graph, the load power does seem low at the right hand end, so maybe the load was very low (< 20 W) until just before the bus voltage hit 480 V, and perhaps a fridge startup or other load just happened to come on at the time of the sample. Again, it seems a bit of a stretch. Can anyone dig into their logs and either support or shoot down at least the very low load theory? My unit has also raised error 08 under medium load conditions. I was watching TV and the fridge was running. I do not have the log, but I estimate the load to be around 600W at that stage. I have measured the bus voltage with a multimeter one day after heavy rains just after the unit went into bypass. The kettle was on at that stage => 2000W load. The bus voltage started climbing quite fast. When it reached 470V, I disconnected the panels and the voltage returned to 372V within 30 seconds. So my conclusion is that this condition is not dependant on the load... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.