CasualCheetah Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 4 minutes ago, plonkster said: That is awesome news. It changes the picture completely. Thanks for the info! Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk One Trojan pony possibly converted! PS. Not that I think Trojan is a bad quality battery in any sense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 What numbers are you seeing? It's quite likely that I have the wrong end of the stick, this is just what I remember. I saw the price and cheered up, then I saw the cycle life and lost all that cheer. Let me see if I can find it again. Here we go... http://www.battery-pmp.co.za/Deltec-Lead-Crystal-Batteries.pdf Page 5, second chart on the left. Around 1600 cycles to 50%. Same as Trojan T105RE. http://www.solarsolved.co.za/datasheets/batteries/Deltec/Lead_Crystal_6_CNFJ_200.pdf Page 2, second chart down on the right. Around 3200 cycles to 50%. That's double. If there is another spec sheet I should see, please send it to me. The above two are the reason I dismissed the Deltec as a possible option. Nope not the one with the wrong end of the stick. If you want i can upload it for you Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 http://www.mediafire.com/download/qfo5vgqzrfmndff/Lead+Crystal+Battery+6-CNFJ-90.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 1 hour ago, CasualCheetah said: One Trojan pony possibly converted! PS. Not that I think Trojan is a bad quality battery in any sense! Have to wait for the Trojans to need replacement ... maybe 8-10 years from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerald_db Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 Actually allowing for temp is around 3000 cycles to 40% dod therefore (12x200x.4x3000)/1000=2880kWh. Ie R2.4 per kwh. In warmer areas around 2800 cycles to 40%. Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk edmundp and ___ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I was waiting for someone to mention the temps. Was thinking when I read the specs that some people have their batteries in there garages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Now that I actually have the temperature sensor attached I can see that the batteries rarely exceed 20 to 25 Celsius. Even though they are in the garage. Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerald_db Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 Mine will be in the garage however the effect of temperature I would imagine assumes that they stay at that temp for days at a time. Here in Eshowe may get to 40 in summer but then drops to 18 to 20 overnight so average around 22 to 25. Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I have temps recorded going back a bit already for controller and battery. Controller needs it to auto adjust charging based on temps. Nogal cool for a PWM Morningstar ne? Where my batts are, braai room (polycarbonate sheets), lowest to date has been 12deg. So your garage, Plonkster, doors facing west-ish(?) with a room on top of garage, is bloody awesome! But 20-25deg at 4am ... are you sure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 27 minutes ago, Gerald_db said: ... may get to 40 in summer but then drops to 18 to 20 overnight so average around 22 to 25. Batteries are optimal at a constant 25deg. But, having said that, how do people handle it in Alaska / Canada ... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 22 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said: Batteries are optimal at a constant 25deg. But, having said that, how do people handle it in Alaska / Canada ... ? insulation? It's easy enough to cool down with a fan if the insulation is too much, so coupled with a thermostat, a fan could be activated when necessary. They could probably also heat-up the battery cabinet / chamber with peltier heaters or even "reptile heaters". If the insulation is good enough only a small amount of heat is necessary to keep it warm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I have the wooden crate. Any suggestions on insulation to use, that will not burn if there is a short or dissolve with acid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 4 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said: I have the wooden crate. Any suggestions on insulation to use, that will not burn if there is a short or dissolve with acid? use isotherm or one of those non-flamable types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 16 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said: But 20-25deg at 4am ... are you sure? Yup, door is facing west. But batteries are in the deepest Eastern corner, on the cold floor with a wooden plank below it (because flooded cells have stratification issues... allegedly). Air temperature in there does go up to 35 in summer, but seriously... that's like one or two weeks in February. On average, it's definitely below 30. Under heavy use it will sometimes go up a bit, I've seen a 32 once... but that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 And at 4am as I asked? You recon it is lowest 20deg in there at night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 20 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said: And at 4am as I asked? You recon it is lowest 20deg in there at night? Of course not, it goes right down to 5. Right now it's charging the batteries to 29.1 instead of the configured 28.8 to compensate for that :-) But the point is really that the cycle life goes down when the heat goes up, the useful capacity comes down when it gets cold (but we're sticking with 50% anyway), so the real worry here is the summer heat, not so much the winter cold. Those really extreme cold days is like one week in August too... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, plonkster said: Those really extreme cold days is like one week in August too Nope ... it has been for a few weeks now in June, July probably worse. I wonder what will happen in August this year. Re. the temps, yes, we all know about too hot and its effect. I think we need to chat about the effect low temps have on the batteries when you discharge them. Am I correct in saying: The higher the ambient temp goes above 25deg, the less efficient the batteries are due to the chemical reaction getting to hot, shortening their life. The lower the ambient temp goes below 25deg, the more efficient the batteries are due to the chemical reaction being more efficient, yet it also shortens their life. Now at night is when batteries are used, and it is also when it gets the coldest. Versus charging, which also heats up the batts, should be very carefully monitored in a hot environment. What is the long term real effect of batteries being quite cold, like under 10deg, when they are discharged? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 47 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said: Nope ... it has been for a few weeks now in June, July probably worse. I wonder what will happen in August this year. This morning was 6 Celsius. Coldest day so far. I know last winter there was a day we touched zero, but it was one day. We rarely go below 5 in this area, and that is outside. My garage is usually a bit above that, it's actually quite liveable, sometimes warmer than the rest of the house (despite the huge gaping non-sealed gaps between the large wooden door and the wall). 50 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said: The higher the ambient temp goes above 25deg, the less efficient the batteries are due to the chemical reaction getting to hot, shortening their life. The higher the temp goes, the faster the chemical reactions, so the battery actually becomes MORE efficient, but the faster it works, the faster it dies, so the life is shorter. 51 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said: The lower the ambient temp goes below 25deg, the more efficient the batteries are due to the chemical reaction being more efficient, yet it also shortens their life. The chemical reactions are slower at lower temperatures, so the batteries are less efficient (it takes more time for the H2SO4 molecule to disassociate, so the maximum rate of discharge will be lower). The battery still has exactly the same capacity, it just cannot work as fast. Capacity is usually rated in terms of discharge rate, usually C20, so your C20 capacity (how much energy you can get out of there in 20 hours) will be lower in winter. This is actually increases the life of the battery. The things to watch out for though, is stratification, and obviously if you actually freeze the battery it's bye-bye too. The context here, as I understand it, is that @Gerald_db pointed out my reading of 3200 cycles is optimistic because that's at 20 Celsius, at the higher temperatures we generally experience it's going to be more like 2800 or 2500 cycles. But even then, around R2.30 to R2.40 per stored kwh, compared to top-end CoCT R2.28 as of this month... it could just be that we have a winner. At 2500 cycles, and if you can get the battery for R6850, then we're there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Another interesting variable will be the true hybrid inverter which doesn't cycle the battery at all during the day... (ie bypass direct to load). Saves cycles during the day when I would hope I use most of my heavy loads. Throw in a hybrid Wind charge controller/inverter (Infini for wind) that can also bypass to load and things could get very interesting. Diverse sources of power (pv, wind and hydro...CHRIS)... and hardly any need for a huge battery bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 I really want a wind turbine. Just cannot really swallow the 30k price tag. I would be perfectly happy with something much smaller, even under 1kw would be fine for night time loads. On ebay they are quite cheap, but shipping is more than the goods :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 The 1kw for around R20K sounds interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 25 minutes ago, Mark said: The 1kw for around R20K sounds interesting... 15k... and we start talking. That's my price for now :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 15k... and we start talking. That's my price for now :-) Mr Mike... Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 21 minutes ago, Mark said: Mr Mike... Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk Sure R16k excl & excluding courier for the turbine...... then you find your own controller?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 1 hour ago, Mike said: Sure R16k excl & excluding courier for the turbine...... then you find your own controller?? In other words, 20k :-) And then I still have to make my own pole. What has set me thinking is that perhaps, this is a better investment than a big battery bank... and that is what the next windfall (aka December bonus) is tagged for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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