Cost of 3kw installation

[Haggers]

 

Hi guys

So I have been doing some research and then I saw this.  Granted it includes a Tesla system but what is a reasonable cost for a 3kw system?

As I have it:

Inverter - 3kw Replus Sineon / Infini - R14k

Batteries - 8 x 6v Trojan 225ah - R16k (Smaller than above yes but lets say I double up?)

Solar panels 12 x renesola 305w - R33k

Cabstrut mounting and labour/COC etc - R17k max I think

So R80k total

What am I missing - or tesla worth the premium

[SilverNodashi]

On 10/28/2016 at 4:08 PM, Haggers said:

 

Hi guys

So I have been doing some research and then I saw this.  Granted it includes a Tesla system but what is a reasonable cost for a 3kw system?

As I have it:

Inverter - 3kw Replus Sineon / Infini - R14k

Batteries - 8 x 6v Trojan 225ah - R16k (Smaller than above yes but lets say I double up?)

Solar panels 12 x renesola 305w - R33k

Cabstrut mounting and labour/COC etc - R17k max I think

So R80k total

What am I missing - or tesla worth the premium

The prices quoted, are they on special or dealer stock?

Let's work with consumer prices, from a random website on the net:

3KW Replus - R16,600

8x 6V Trojan - R12,000 (R24,000 to double up)

12x Renesola 305W panels - R38,262.96

Mounting, labor/COC, etc - R17k-R20k

Total: R86862.96

Give-or-take R1000 here, or there, more or less. 

Or R98,862.96 when doubling up on the battery bank. 225Ah will give approximately 220W/hour over 19 hours (24 hours - 5 hours sunshine). If you get 6 hours sunshine, like many in South Africa do, you score a bit

 

Realistically, you might need more like 600Whr - 800Whr during the night. Check your consumption over a couple weeks to establish a good baseline and work from there. 

[Haggers]

9 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

The prices quoted, are they on special or dealer stock?

Let's work with consumer prices, from a random website on the net:

3KW Replus - R16,600

8x 6V Trojan - R12,000 (R24,000 to double up)

12x Renesola 305W panels - R38,262.96

Mounting, labor/COC, etc - R17k-R20k

Total: R86862.96

Give-or-take R1000 here, or there, more or less. 

Or R98,862.96 when doubling up on the battery bank. 225Ah will give approximately 220W/hour over 19 hours (24 hours - 5 hours sunshine). If you get 6 hours sunshine, like many in South Africa do, you score a bit

 

Realistically, you might need more like 600Whr - 800Whr during the night. Check your consumption over a couple weeks to establish a good baseline and work from there. 

Hi SN

Thanks so much for the response.  Shoo, I thought this was a taboo topic as I just saw views but no responses.  Not sure if the above covers all the necessary switchovers etc.

Prices are those I have been able to find on the net - cheapest I could find after tons of research.  For example 3kw replus R16,600 but direct from Renesola for R14k - also included R500 delivery from Midrand warehouse.  Just waiting for a further improvement in the Rand then cheaper:) Same with the Renesola panels, just pick up at warehouse in Bellville (how do these panels operate in our heat/sunshine?).

Not sure where you get the battery prices - those are pretty good, mind sharing:)  How do I work out what I need?  Don't mind using Eskom once correct DOD level is reached ... don't need to be totally off grid, just want to first and foremost reduce reliance on Eskom and build up some back up thereafter.

Herewith a typical picture of my usage - I may be undercooking the sizing materially?:

Solar Geyser at 5 for top up and 4 again - think I have an issue with the thermostat or something.

Pond pump from 9-10

Pool pump 10-3pm

Irrigation pond various

2nd geyser at 6pm

Plenty outside lights when dark

[___]

Hang on, you use like 2kw almost constantly? If I look at that chart, you have a bar every hour reaching almost to or just above 2kwh. That's around 50kwh a day.

It's not far off from where I started. I was at 40kwh (in summer!). I reduced by about half by replacing appliances (fridge, freezer) and all the lights. I was lucky though. My fridge/freezer setup literally came from my student days: The old appliances that just refused to die even ten years later. It was easy to justify replacement :-)

[Haggers]

35 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Hang on, you use like 2kw almost constantly? If I look at that chart, you have a bar every hour reaching almost to or just above 2kwh. That's around 50kwh a day.

It's not far off from where I started. I was at 40kwh (in summer!). I reduced by about half by replacing appliances (fridge, freezer) and all the lights. I was lucky though. My fridge/freezer setup literally came from my student days: The old appliances that just refused to die even ten years later. It was easy to justify replacement :-)

Hi Plonkster

I acknowledge I have a problem yes.  I have not tested yet how accurate the efergy unit is ... will do so when I have enough data to compare. I use on average 2000 units a month I think.  I bought the efergy unit to determine where I use all the electricity - I have been working on reducing first .. still in process though.

Disadvantage of large property, 3 adults, 3 kids, 4 pump motors, 2 geyser I guess.  Always open to ideas.

Regards

Haggers

[Guest]

We work from home, lots of computer running, 2 adult kids and 2 grandparents in separate unit ... reducing the load became a very important subject.

[SilverNodashi]

14 hours ago, Haggers said:

Hi SN

Thanks so much for the response.  Shoo, I thought this was a taboo topic as I just saw views but no responses.  Not sure if the above covers all the necessary switchovers etc.

Prices are those I have been able to find on the net - cheapest I could find after tons of research.  For example 3kw replus R16,600 but direct from Renesola for R14k - also included R500 delivery from Midrand warehouse.  Just waiting for a further improvement in the Rand then cheaper:) Same with the Renesola panels, just pick up at warehouse in Bellville (how do these panels operate in our heat/sunshine?).

Not sure where you get the battery prices - those are pretty good, mind sharing:)  How do I work out what I need?  Don't mind using Eskom once correct DOD level is reached ... don't need to be totally off grid, just want to first and foremost reduce reliance on Eskom and build up some back up thereafter.

Herewith a typical picture of my usage - I may be undercooking the sizing materially?:

Solar Geyser at 5 for top up and 4 again - think I have an issue with the thermostat or something.

Pond pump from 9-10

Pool pump 10-3pm

Irrigation pond various

2nd geyser at 6pm

Plenty outside lights when dark

Yes it's a taboo topic, since people want to make money and don't want to be told they are not allowed to. So you figured you could buy directly from one of the suppliers, this immediately cuts out the entrepreneur's profit. Some add 10%, some 15% and some even 30%. Your example price And that's what makes this topic (not yours alone, but the topic around cost in general) taboo. 

And now you comes the cost of installation. Would R6000 be too much? Would R4000 be too much? Yes on both occasions. But R1000 - R1500 would be fine in most people's minds. Then they expect you to come with your own staff, own tools, own ladders, van or something big and strong enough to safely transport those 12 solar panels, 8 batteries and expensive inverter, along with cables, etc. Those 12 panels will weight about 350Kg, 8 batteries would be another 230Kg (or 460KG since you need 16) and the inverter weighs 30Kg. Courier fees on these items would be exorbitant so the installer would probably have to rent a trailer to haul the 2m long panels to you. So since he can't add markup to the products and he can't charge too much for the installation, you get a sub standard installation. 

Bringing this up in a public forum opens up the whole process to a can of worms. 

How does one justify your cost, and then turn around and give a client good service if he insist on paying peanuts, cause he could do it cheaper himself?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

How does one justify your cost, and then turn around and give a client good service if he insist on paying peanuts, cause he could do it cheaper himself?

I do feel your pain. We have it with software development, how long will it take, why so expensive yet after a few years you know, the client is going to change their mind and ask for more after paying a lot not wanting to pay more ... it is normal.

So how to solve it, that the installer / developer is happy and the client keeps on paying what is asked.

But, I must admit, I do get my knickers in a knot when a solar installer charges more per hour than my Dr.

[SilverNodashi]

22 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I do feel your pain. We have it with software development, how long will it take, why so expensive yet after a few years you know, the client is going to change their mind and ask for more after paying lot not wanting to pay more ... it is normal.

So how to solve it, that the installer / developer is happy and the client keeps on paying what is asked.

But, I must admit, I do get my knickers in a knot when a solar installer charges more per hour than my Dr.

What does your Doctor charge?

Solar installers can be seen as most other contractors. Electricians charge anything between R350-R950 per hour, depending on their skill/experience/qualification, and the job/market segment. My dentist charge R200 for a filling while another dentist with more degrees behind his name, in a wealthier part of the city will charge R600 for the same job. 

[Guest]

I have NO issue with R350.00 per hour myself, but because of where we live, as you also point it, the price nearly doubles just because of the area.

So yes, it is a difficult position for both parties.

[SilverNodashi]

6 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I have NO issue with R350.00 per hour myself, but because of where we live, as you also point it, the price nearly doubles just because of the area.

So yes, it is a difficult position for both parties.

well, here's the problem. If you had to earn R350/hour for yourself, it's fine. But if you offer a service, as a company, R350/hour is quite cheap. As a company, you need to worry about travel expenses, rent, wages, UIF, tax, insurance, marketing, etc, etc, etc. And decent skill don't come cheap. A qualified, and legal, "wiremans license" these days cost 4 years training. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

As a company ...

I do run a (Pty) Ltd so I am acutely aware of all the costs involved. In the beginning it is as you say, all those costs coming out of the hourly charge.

But once you hit a certain point each additional R350 per hour becomes pure profit. 

[SilverNodashi]

16 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I do run a (Pty) Ltd so I am acutely aware of all the costs involved. In the beginning it is as you say, all those costs coming out of the hourly charge.

But once you hit a certain point each additional R350 per hour becomes pure profit. 

R350/h is very cheap for your industry as well. As a software engineer, we used to charge R720/hour, about 8 years ago for software support. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, SilverNodashi said:

R350/h is very cheap for your industry as well. As a software engineer, we used to charge R720/hour, about 8 years ago for software support. 

It is yes, but I learned long ago to ask the question: Do I want a lot of R350-R550's or a few R720-R950's? Having clients for 20 years works for me. Charging a lower rate does not mean the work is inferior to a R950 rate ... it is just a different strategy to achieve the one goal: Consistent profit.

Problem is, lower prices lead people to believe it is inferior work, but then there are references to counter that.

I just know that if someone charges me a rate, that the rate will determine if they will become the "regular supplier" or the "use once, then discard" supplier.

The issue with just once is that that person has to constantly look for new business, versus the more affordable rate ensures regular comebacks from the same clients.

Any case, we all charge what we want and how we want, there is no right or wrong way, in the end it depends on if the client is willing to pay or not.

[___]

1 hour ago, SilverNodashi said:

R350/h is very cheap for your industry as well

Yup. I quoted someone R500/hour for a job recently. That wasn't because of being greedy and all, it was just that I had to put a price on the hours after 5PM. A European was also involved on that project and his response to me was "Are you sure?" :-)

In other words, for the right skillset I do believe you can charge more than R350. For a freelancer that is a good rate (small overheads) but the moment you're running a company and paying salaries that really is low. R450 - R500 is still affordable and considered on the low side and considerably easier to "live on" :-)

With all that said though: Sometimes the rate is immaterial, especially when you're doing a fixed quote. When you're saying "it will take 80 hours and this is the total cost", then your effective rate really depends on your own efficiency. Fixed quotes usually means taking the initial estimate and multiplying it by two (by three if it's for the government), so even at R350/hour the real rate could be as high as R700/hour if you are really effective.

[Haggers]

Hi guys

Didnt mean to offend anyone. Let me give you an eg. of my experience. So I recently put up a new tv but it needed to go on a dry wall and I was concerned o couldnt do it properly. Got an external company to come and do the job, he tried to charge me R2k for the bracket and I told him im not willing to pay that price. he kept to the story this is what he paid for it even though i showed him the bracket on takealot for r950. we then agreed i will buy it and return it to him as stock.

PS, his call out fee was R600 for less than an hour's work which I was more than happy to pay. 

 

[Haggers]

So just to add, I dnt mind paying the correct amount for labour(just be upfront about this) and even small premium of the convenience of the contractor bringing all the components, i just dnt like getting ripped off like in my example above.

[Mike]

From my side my rate used to be in the early days R350 per hour, but when you have to start running around collecting goods for clients and so on, it starts to cost you. my Vito does on average 8 to 12000km's per month as we work in a 150km radius from the office. We upped our hourly call out rate to R385 per hour and had no  complaints

SO our complete installs cost anything from R8k to R14k and even up to R45k and higher dependent on the size of installation and the difficulty to install -  i believe it to be fair, as folks above mention you have to supply all to site etc. We also nowadays, if we supply everything charge around 10% markup, as i have always believed that our money making would be on the labour side of things as that is our field of experience

What get me going sometimes is when a client purchases everything and asks you to install for R350 per hour, and it would take us maybe 4 hours.... sorry i run for the hills then. One also has to remember that the install is our responsibility for the next 12 months

Also at most installs you always will find some or other issue with cabling / DB  etc and we sort it at no charge before we sign off.

[SilverNodashi]

2 hours ago, Haggers said:

Hi guys

Didnt mean to offend anyone. Let me give you an eg. of my experience. So I recently put up a new tv but it needed to go on a dry wall and I was concerned o couldnt do it properly. Got an external company to come and do the job, he tried to charge me R2k for the bracket and I told him im not willing to pay that price. he kept to the story this is what he paid for it even though i showed him the bracket on takealot for r950. we then agreed i will buy it and return it to him as stock.

PS, his call out fee was R600 for less than an hour's work which I was more than happy to pay. 

 

There are some super expensive TV brackets. And then you get the normal cheap ones. Check this out: http://www.takealot.com/aavara-a6041-wall-mount-kit/PLID42171310 

So it depends on where he sourced it, and what brand?

[Guest]

Once, and I mean once, I had DSTV installed. Was quoted R1000 and when the final bill came, R4500 - I FLIPPED.

No said the guy, it is because of extra cable. But I gave you a 100m, yes he said, he had to add more, Where, why, I asked?

He was not budging so we compromised, R2k.

It turns out the installation is cheap yes, they nailed me on the cost per meter of cable installed - there was no roof nor any complications involved.

"Use once, then discard" supplier.

[Chris Hobson]

15 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

"Use once, then discard" supplier.

I had our generator serviced. The chap came out on our bumpy road (56km) took  the gennie to town fitted new brushes (<R100) and machined the commutator, a reasonably straight forward operation (I would do it myself if our lathe was big enough). This was nearly ten years ago and I was charged R5000. I try to reason with him and got nowhere. I have not bought a washer from them since. I have had the alternator serviced every now and again an the last time it was just over 1000 bucks.

[Haggers]

3 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

There are some super expensive TV brackets. And then you get the normal cheap ones. Check this out: http://www.takealot.com/aavara-a6041-wall-mount-kit/PLID42171310 

So it depends on where he sourced it, and what brand?

Hi SN

The bracket is exactly this one.  http://www.takealot.com/ultra-link-32-63-tv-wall-bracket-black/PLID38258213

I even googled the code and showed him.  He just said that is what he paid.  He should be getting it cheaper.  He definitely tried to rip me off.

Regards

Haggers

[Haggers]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

From my side my rate used to be in the early days R350 per hour, but when you have to start running around collecting goods for clients and so on, it starts to cost you. my Vito does on average 8 to 12000km's per month as we work in a 150km radius from the office. We upped our hourly call out rate to R385 per hour and had no  complaints

SO our complete installs cost anything from R8k to R14k and even up to R45k and higher dependent on the size of installation and the difficulty to install -  i believe it to be fair, as folks above mention you have to supply all to site etc. We also nowadays, if we supply everything charge around 10% markup, as i have always believed that our money making would be on the labour side of things as that is our field of experience

What get me going sometimes is when a client purchases everything and asks you to install for R350 per hour, and it would take us maybe 4 hours.... sorry i run for the hills then. One also has to remember that the install is our responsibility for the next 12 months

Also at most installs you always will find some or other issue with cabling / DB  etc and we sort it at no charge before we sign off.

Hi Mike

I am more than comfortable with this explanation.

Regards

Ignatius

[Haggers]

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Once, and I mean once, I had DSTV installed. Was quoted R1000 and when the final bill came, R4500 - I FLIPPED.

No said the guy, it is because of extra cable. But I gave you a 100m, yes he said, he had to add more, Where, why, I asked?

He was not budging so we compromised, R2k.

It turns out the installation is cheap yes, they nailed me on the cost per meter of cable installed - there was no roof nor any complications involved.

"Use once, then discard" supplier.

I learnt this lesson as well.  When I moved recently, I went and bought extra cabling and when he said he needed more I said, here you go:)

[Haggers]

Ok, so first thing I need to complete is to reduce the usage.  I will work on that and then bump this thread with my latest engage readings.  We can chat from there.

Thanks all - appreciate the discussion.

Regards

Haggers