Good morning everyone

Firstly apologies for the long post.

I am finally setting the wheels in motion to install solar and battery backup in the next 2 months. As you can understand the level of power outages are getting too much now. I am sitting without electricity for half of my work day today (8H00 to 12H30).

We got a quote from The Power Forum Store for the gear which consists of x6 460w JA Solar Panels, 5kw Sunsynk, 5kw Hubble and the accessories needed for the installation for R99k.

On average we use 750kwh per month which includes running a pool and wellpoint pump, 1 electric geyser (will be switched to gas in the future), electric stove (going gas in future) and oven. We also have 1 double door Samsung and 1 single door Hisense fridge/freezer and 2 microwaves. These are all the high draw items which are not essential and can be split at the DB. The pool pump generally runs for an hour each day and the wellpoint pump for 1 to 2 hours each day, if not every second day.

The critical items are LED lights (indoor and outdoor), ONT and router, POE switch and 5 IP cameras, 4 LED TV's (x1 55", x2 40" and x2 30"), alarm and the plugs in the house.

Besides the alarm and cameras these devices are not all on at the same time. In fact, the majority of the essential items are off for the most of the day. At night the lighting amounts to about 300w though this can be reduced by about 100w as I have some unnecessary lights running at night.

The intension is not to go off grid but to deal with loadshedding and reduce my electricity bill at the same time.

I have a few questions regarding the solar and battery backup installation.

1. My house currently has 3 phase electricity, what implication does this have on the installation?

2. Will the x6 460w JA Solar Panels generate enough electricity to power the some of the nonessential loads and charge the battery during the day. I work from home but hardly anything is on during the day, only the fridges, 2 TV's, internet, CCTV and sometimes the alarm.

3. Will I struggle to generate enough electricity in winter? I can possible push the number of panels to 8 at this stage.

4. Is the 5kw Hubble sufficient to power my essential loads during loadshedding?

5. Do the CoCT credit your municipal account if you backfeed?

Looking forward to the responses. I know there is a wealth of knowledge here.

Edited January 17, 20232 yr by jdido87

Good morning 

Any advice will be appreciated.

Don't consider the fridges as non-essential. An increasing problem with the current high levels of load shedding and the shenanigans that can occur after power is restored is that folks lose costly groceries out of their fridges. They shouldn't draw that much actually, especially if they are fairly new and have a good energy rating.

IMO we do better with 10kwh of battery.

Example: My heat pump runs at 5:30 in the morning at present. This morning after the heat pump had run I had 57% remaining. It was another hour before I started getting useful PV. With a 5kwh battery it would be very close to being exhausted. Now if there's early morning load shedding and an overcast morning then things get... challenging. 

10kwh of battery gives you much more flexibility, a bigger buffer, and can store more free power for use when the sun has gone down.

Yes, I know it's not my money. We have to do what is within our scope, but with the current levels of load shedding (and the current outlook), 10kwh is something to think about.
 

Edited January 17, 20232 yr by Bobster.
substitute "outlook" for "forecast"

22 hours ago, jdido87 said:

1. My house currently has 3 phase electricity, what implication does this have on the installation?

You should probably consider changing the house to single phase, unless, of course you have 3 phase needs, like 3 phase motors etc. it doesn't sound like it, though.

22 hours ago, jdido87 said:

2. Will the x6 460w JA Solar Panels generate enough electricity to power the some of the nonessential loads and charge the battery during the day. I work from home but hardly anything is on during the day, only the fridges, 2 TV's, internet, CCTV and sometimes the alarm.

Yes and no, I'd say, if you can afford it, double up on the panels, then certainly you should be able to send power to the non-essential side, when commercial power is available.

22 hours ago, jdido87 said:

3. Will I struggle to generate enough electricity in winter? I can possible push the number of panels to 8 at this stage.

If the panels aren't shaded and pointing northward, mainly, you  should be able to generate, with sunshine, in winter as well, but less than in summer, I would say, if you have the space and finance, overpanneling can help out very much during cloudy conditions and in winter when the amount of daylight is a lot less as well...

22 hours ago, jdido87 said:

4. Is the 5kw Hubble sufficient to power my essential loads during loadshedding?

You mentioned 300W, that should be ok, but I suspect your essential end is probably more than that and this real figure is what one would need to calculate, if the loadshed is only 2-hours or so, you could have 2kW average draw  for the loadshed period and it should be fine, if its daylight, the panels should even sort you out, mostly, I'd think. If its a 4 hour loadshed at night... as long as the draw doesn't exceed 1kW, thus 4-odd kWh, then you should also be ok, certainly here, to survive the night, we need more like 12 to 14kWh's worth of battery this time of year...

22 hours ago, jdido87 said:

5. Do the CoCT credit your municipal account if you backfeed?

Not as far as I know and you are not allowed to backfeed, unless you pay them lots of money and at the end of the day, it isn't a viable option, consume all the electrons you generate yourself, start a bakery as a sideline from home, if you have that much extra energy, but that's about the best you can do...

 

22 hours ago, jdido87 said:

5. Do the CoCT credit your municipal account if you backfeed?

You can backfeed, but there are conditions. Firstly you will need a new meter. Secondly you must remain a net purchaser (IE if you use 1000kwh a year from the grid, you will only get paid for 999). Thirdly, they will not buy back from you at the price you pay them in the first place.

Any crediting will not just happen, you must register as a reseller.

Check the tariffs carefully (they will be in the public domain) and do the sums and if you see a way to break even then do it. Otherwise, as @Kalahari Meerkat has advised, use all that solar power anyway you can.

Edited January 17, 20232 yr by Bobster.

57 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

Don't consider the fridges as non-essential. An increasing problem with the current high levels of load shedding and the shenanigans that can occur after power is restored is that folks lose costly groceries out of their fridges. They shouldn't draw that much actually, especially if they are fairly new and have a good energy rating.

IMO we do better with 10kwh of battery.

Example: My heat pump runs at 5:30 in the morning at present. This morning after the heat pump had run I had 57% remaining. It was another hour before I started getting useful PV. With a 5kwh battery it would be very close to being exhausted. Now if there's early morning load shedding and an overcast morning then things get... challenging. 

10kwh of battery gives you much more flexibility, a bigger buffer, and can store more free power for use when the sun has gone down.

Yes, I know it's not my money. We have to do what is within our scope, but with the current levels of load shedding (and the current outlook), 10kwh is something to think about.
 

Thank you for the response. 

Yes the fridge is in the back of the mind but for now the budget wont allow for added battery capacity. For now the most important is to deal with loadshedding. We only have 1 geyser on the property and that will be switched to gas as well as the electric hob.

Here's a snap shot of my system early this morning. We're asleep, no big loads running but two fridge freezers, a deep freeze, 6 outside lamps (1 CFL and 5 LED), plus stuff on standby

Load (yellow trace, reported every 5 minutes) never gets to 400w, and the battery discharges (green trace) but quite slowly. Fridges and freezers may generate brief spikes on start up, but what I'm showing here is that this system (4.6kw to the Sunsynk's 5) can handle three fridges with no hassle. My experience is that fridges (these are all rated A or better) don't consume a lot of power.

Probably best to get your system up and running, then move the fridges to the backed up circuits and see what the impact of that is. 

Edited January 17, 20232 yr by Bobster.
clarity

6 minutes ago, jdido87 said:

Yes the fridge is in the back of the mind

during loadshed/rolling blackout, lets call it what it *really* is, you should be able, with a 5kWh battery on tap, be able to keep the fridge alive as well... this time of year, we're using, at night, between 900W and 1k3W, this is a "Cessna" - a 60cm fan to try and circulate power through the house (blikemmer dis warm...) about 200-250W for this fan alone.... a chest freezer (about 2m wide), one upright fridge freezer and one smaller chest freezer and one smaller fride, thus 4 compressors, various fans and a bunch of computers (2 X Intel NUC, 2 X Apple Mac Mini, various Pies (3 X Pi4, 1 X Pi3, 1 X Pi Zero W, 2 X Pi Zero 2W), there is probably more, but can't think of the obvious now, oh yes, a Drobo B800i (iSCSI based disk storage with 4 X 4TB disks and space for 4 more), anyway, you should with your battery certainly be able to keep your fridge running during commercial power interruptions....

We used to use gas for cooking here, but since most of the cooking is occurring during sunlight hours, we're actually using electricity more for this, after all, gas ain't exactly getting cheaper. HWC is a purely solar one, low pressure (after all, no commercial water supply) with 10 or 12 evacuated glass tubes, I actually need an "afdakkie" for the damn thing at the moment, hot water is way too hot at the moment and the cold water ain't, its more like around 28°C warm, at the moment as well.

1 hour ago, Kalahari Meerkat said:

You should probably consider changing the house to single phase, unless, of course you have 3 phase needs, like 3 phase motors etc. it doesn't sound like it, though.

Yes and no, I'd say, if you can afford it, double up on the panels, then certainly you should be able to send power to the non-essential side, when commercial power is available.

If the panels aren't shaded and pointing northward, mainly, you  should be able to generate, with sunshine, in winter as well, but less than in summer, I would say, if you have the space and finance, overpanneling can help out very much during cloudy conditions and in winter when the amount of daylight is a lot less as well...

You mentioned 300W, that should be ok, but I suspect your essential end is probably more than that and this real figure is what one would need to calculate, if the loadshed is only 2-hours or so, you could have 2kW average draw  for the loadshed period and it should be fine, if its daylight, the panels should even sort you out, mostly, I'd think. If its a 4 hour loadshed at night... as long as the draw doesn't exceed 1kW, thus 4-odd kWh, then you should also be ok, certainly here, to survive the night, we need more like 12 to 14kWh's worth of battery this time of year...

Not as far as I know and you are not allowed to backfeed, unless you pay them lots of money and at the end of the day, it isn't a viable option, consume all the electrons you generate yourself, start a bakery as a sideline from home, if you have that much extra energy, but that's about the best you can do...

 

I had a look at the DB board and there is nothing to suggest that all 3 phases are being used. It looks identical to the DB board at my other house which is single phase. As I understand the main switch and the earth leakage will be wider (3 arms or levers) than the current main switch and earth leakage which only has 2 levers. I have normal single phase electronics. I don't think all 3 phases are being used.

Regarding the panels what I am going to do is go with x6 or x8 545w panels instead of the 460w panels. Will this make a significant difference?

The roof is mostly north facing and in the afternoon the north-westerly facing sections of the roof still gets sun late into the evening. I note that most people in the area install their panels on the north-western sections of the roofs. I have options in this regard. I will install a separate string on the north-western facing roof but that I will determine in the winter to see what the sun does.

We hardly have any electronics that will cause more that 1kw draw at any one time. The current electric geyser, hob, oven, microwave, pool and well-point pumps and the airfryer certainly will but I will never run those things on battery power. We either take lukewarm showers, which we do in any event or we braai, even though my wife don't like braaing lol. I guess we will have to adjust our behavior which we already did for loadshedding in any event. There is too much lighting installed here, some 80w LED floodlight which is not necessary and will be removed. It looks like Cape Town stadium here at night.

The backfeeding is off for now until the City makes it attractive.

Is a budget of R150K realistic for an installation of this nature.

I really appreciate your response.

 

1 hour ago, joshua121 said:

Good Morning jdido87,
 

There is an lot of  misinformation out there about the practicalities of installing solar on a house that has a 3 phase supply. So I will suggest to clear up your confusion.

Try Connecting solar power to a 3 three-phase supply is entirely possible. But you need to decide how you are going to connect your solar system to the grid. Your 3 options are:

1) connect your solar system to only one of your supply phases with a single-phase solar inverter.

2) connect your system into all 3 phases of your supply with  a single, 3-phase solar inverter

3) connect your system into all 3 phases with 3 separate single-phase inverter

If you require more information then visit https://solaremporium.com.au/blog/7-things-you-need-to-know-before-buying-solar/

Thank you for your response. Option 1 is what I will go with. I was under the impression major rewiring is required to connect the inverter and solar to my house. 

As I indicated above, I do not think all 3 phases are being used here. The main switch and the earth leakage does not look like 3 phase equipment.

1 hour ago, Bobster. said:

You can backfeed, but there are conditions. Firstly you will need a new meter. Secondly you must remain a net purchaser (IE if you use 1000kwh a year from the grid, you will only get paid for 999). Thirdly, they will not buy back from you at the price you pay them in the first place.

Any crediting will not just happen, you must register as a reseller.

Check the tariffs carefully (they will be in the public domain) and do the sums and if you see a way to break even then do it. Otherwise, as @Kalahari Meerkat has advised, use all that solar power anyway you can.

All I hear is redtape. This option is off the cards. As you suggest, I will rather make use of the power myself.

25 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

Here's a snap shot of my system early this morning. We're asleep, no big loads running but two fridge freezers, a deep freeze, 6 outside lamps (1 CFL and 5 LED), plus stuff on standby

Load (yellow trace, reported every 5 minutes) never gets to 400w, and the battery discharges (green trace) but quite slowly. Fridges and freezers may generate brief spikes on start up, but what I'm showing here is that this system (4.6kw to the Sunsynk's 5) can handle three fridges with no hassle. My experience is that fridges (these are all rated A or better) don't consume a lot of power.

Probably best to get your system up and running, then move the fridges to the backed up circuits and see what the impact of that is. 

That is great advise which I will certainly heed. I need to Google the energy ratings of these fridges but the do not consume a lot of power in any event. We use very little electricity if we don't cook, runs the pumps or shower. The pool and well-point pumps are both 0.75kw pumps which I assume can easily be run during the day off solar. I am alone at home during the day, I work from home.

20 minutes ago, Kalahari Meerkat said:

during loadshed/rolling blackout, lets call it what it *really* is, you should be able, with a 5kWh battery on tap, be able to keep the fridge alive as well... this time of year, we're using, at night, between 900W and 1k3W, this is a "Cessna" - a 60cm fan to try and circulate power through the house (blikemmer dis warm...) about 200-250W for this fan alone.... a chest freezer (about 2m wide), one upright fridge freezer and one smaller chest freezer and one smaller fride, thus 4 compressors, various fans and a bunch of computers (2 X Intel NUC, 2 X Apple Mac Mini, various Pies (3 X Pi4, 1 X Pi3, 1 X Pi Zero W, 2 X Pi Zero 2W), there is probably more, but can't think of the obvious now, oh yes, a Drobo B800i (iSCSI based disk storage with 4 X 4TB disks and space for 4 more), anyway, you should with your battery certainly be able to keep your fridge running during commercial power interruptions....

We used to use gas for cooking here, but since most of the cooking is occurring during sunlight hours, we're actually using electricity more for this, after all, gas ain't exactly getting cheaper. HWC is a purely solar one, low pressure (after all, no commercial water supply) with 10 or 12 evacuated glass tubes, I actually need an "afdakkie" for the damn thing at the moment, hot water is way too hot at the moment and the cold water ain't, its more like around 28°C warm, at the moment as well.

Your water temperature situation sounds terrible. Hell I even take lukewarm showers in winter, I do not understand how people come out of the shower looking like tomatoes. 

We do not have nearly as much devices running as you, not even remotely close. It is literally a few LED lights, a few TV's, 2 fridges, internet, alarm, cctv and that is that. Oh and a laptop with an external hard drive for a Plex Media server.  

25 minutes ago, jdido87 said:

Thank you for your response. Option 1 is what I will go with. I was under the impression major rewiring is required to connect the inverter and solar to my house. 

As I indicated above, I do not think all 3 phases are being used here. The main switch and the earth leakage does not look like 3 phase equipment.

no three-phase equipment just means no piece of equipment using all three phases at once. Likely you have the same situation as me, which is a bunch of single phase loads split across the phases. It would be very surprising if this is not the case, unless someone has already started tinkering. No self-respecting electrician would have put all the loads on one phase if there were three availble.

 

But its easy to see, switch off the man breaker, disconnect one of the phases from the incomer, switch back one and check if everything still works. (dont do this if you actually have three-phase kit though) Or just trace the incoming phases

Edited January 17, 20232 yr by Thatdamnjoe

1 minute ago, Thatdamnjoe said:

No self-respecting electrician would have put all the loads on one phase if there were three availble.

What if the total load in the property could exceed 60A (the limit in Johannesburg)? Would you then apportion the loads across phases so that you don't exceed 60A per phase.

25 minutes ago, jdido87 said:

All I hear is redtape. This option is off the cards. As you suggest, I will rather make use of the power myself.

What I described is by no means exclusive to COCT. In Johannesburg I CAN resell, but I'd have to be stupid to do so. It is impossible to not be out of pocket. And then, as you say, there's all the red tape.
 

25 minutes ago, jdido87 said:

I need to Google the energy ratings of these fridges

Each fridge should have a plate on it with nominal/claimed loads. The claims are probably in the ball park, but graphs like the one I posted don't lie - you see the real load.

50 minutes ago, Thatdamnjoe said:

no three-phase equipment just means no piece of equipment using all three phases at once. Likely you have the same situation as me, which is a bunch of single phase loads split across the phases. It would be very surprising if this is not the case, unless someone has already started tinkering. No self-respecting electrician would have put all the loads on one phase if there were three availble.

 

But its easy to see, switch off the man breaker, disconnect one of the phases from the incomer, switch back one and check if everything still works. (dont do this if you actually have three-phase kit though) Or just trace the incoming phases

The wiring in this house is dodgy as hell. I do not know how a CoC was issued when I purchased. I checked the DB now and The is only 1 live and neutral going to the main switch (separate from the DB) and the same to the main switch on the DB. If I put either off everything is off. My main switch is similar to this but 63A.

48 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

Each fridge should have a plate on it with nominal/claimed loads. The claims are probably in the ball park, but graphs like the one I posted don't lie - you see the real load.

I checked the label in the fridge now. Rated at 320w, I do know if this is just for the freezer or combined fridge and freezer. It is a double door Samsung with automatic ice and water dispensers. 

58 minutes ago, jdido87 said:

I checked the label in the fridge now. Rated at 320w, I do know if this is just for the freezer or combined fridge and freezer. It is a double door Samsung with automatic ice and water dispensers. 

That will be combined as few fridges have 2 compressors. Gas moves through freezer and then fridge. Normally fridge thermostat controls both. 

3 hours ago, Bobster. said:

What if the total load in the property could exceed 60A (the limit in Johannesburg)? Would you then apportion the loads across phases so that you don't exceed 60A per phase.

Thats what I mean. If you have three phases available, then you try and balance across the phases. Some loads on the red, some on the white, some on the blue. Thats typical. You typically wouldnt max out the red before starting to load the white, although common sense isnt that common so anything is possible of course.
 

 

3 hours ago, jdido87 said:

The wiring in this house is dodgy as hell. I do not know how a CoC was issued when I purchased. I checked the DB now and The is only 1 live and neutral going to the main switch (separate from the DB) and the same to the main switch on the DB. If I put either off everything is off. My main switch is similar to this but 63A.

Curious, why did you say the property is on three phase power? If the incomer breaker isnt three phase? Or its terminating all three phases from outside but only connecting one of the phases to your loads?

11 minutes ago, Thatdamnjoe said:

Curious, why did you say the property is on three phase power? If the incomer breaker isnt three phase? Or its terminating all three phases from outside but only connecting one of the phases to your loads?

I know the supply to the houses in the area is 3 phase. 

The City recent removed the overhead power lines when they installed a new distribution new underground in the road reserves. The electricians who made the new connection from the street confirmed that the houses are supplied with 3 phase. I don't think all 3 phases are being used. 

Edited January 17, 20232 yr by jdido87

15 minutes ago, jdido87 said:

I know the supply to the houses in the area is 3 phase. 

All your neighbors can have 3 phase and you single phase - but the pricing structure will be different. If your DB is single phase and your connection 3 phase, you are probably paying more than you have to. But if your DB is single phase, it is very unlikely that your connection is anything other than single phase.

2 hours ago, P1000 said:

All your neighbors can have 3 phase and you single phase - but the pricing structure will be different. If your DB is single phase and your connection 3 phase, you are probably paying more than you have to. But if your DB is single phase, it is very unlikely that your connection is anything other than single phase.

I have no idea but my brother who lives around the corner from me definitely has 3 phase. He has those wide lever main switch and earth leakage. He just confirmed to me that the City also told him that it's 3 phase. The pics below is the new junction box they installed from the road and the existing DB box.