1 minute ago, Scorp007 said:

We should be lucky that we don't have to pay a fixed fee every month for every courier we use to maintain and purchase their vehicles for when we decide to make use of their services. 🤔🤔🤔

We do, it is called Tax.

13 minutes ago, Eurard said:

If you are on prepaid, check your first purchase of the month, the service fee is included when you get your token notification sms.

Well I buy every 2nd month, just to stay in City Power's good books. I just checked my last purchase, and I am informed that service fee was 0.00. Maybe the bank adds service fees, or not, depending on what package you're on?

11 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

We should be lucky that we don't have to pay a fixed fee every month for every courier we use to maintain and purchase their vehicles for when we decide to make use of their services. 🤔🤔🤔

The courier does not need to build and maintain a road to your house.

16 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

Well I buy every 2nd month, just to stay in City Power's good books. I just checked my last purchase, and I am informed that service fee was 0.00. Maybe the bank adds service fees, or not, depending on what package you're on?

If you purchase twice a month the second doesnt have the service fee, only the first, maybe you already bought during that month.

45 minutes ago, Eurard said:

If you are on prepaid, check your first purchase of the month, the service fee is included when you get your token notification sms.

Not in Ekurhuleni. I get the kWh that I pay for. Currently R2 per kWh

19 minutes ago, Eurard said:

If you purchase twice a month the second doesnt have the service fee, only the first, maybe you already bought during that month.

It would help to clarify who you buy units from and how. I buy from City Power, and I do this via FNB. I always get units equivalent to the rand value that I spent, and no service charges. 

To address your point, I buy a small amount once a month, every second month. So I am quite sure that there is no service fee included.

1 hour ago, Eurard said:

If you are on prepaid, check your first purchase of the month, the service fee is included when you get your token notification sms.

Again, @Eurard, you HAVE to qualify statements like this either with proof, or at least indicate which council is invoicing you. 

I'm with Tshwane (COT), and I pay no surcharge. I get exactly the amount I pay for. In fact, before I had solar, my second purchase for the month would result in less units, because my unit cost goes up, the more I buy.

In Tshwane, the electricity costs are identical for pre- and postpaid customers, according to the following sliding scale, monthly:

1. 0 - 100kWh = 209.70c / kWh
2. 101 - 400kWh = 245.41c / kWh
3. 401 - 650kWh = 267.38c / kWh
4. >650kWh = 288.24c / kWh

SOURCE: https://www.tshwane.gov.za/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php?juwpfisadmin=false&action=wpfd&task=file.download&wpfd_category_id=266&wpfd_file_id=28726 section A, paragraph 1.1

Interestingly, for water, we pay a "network access charge", which is a flat rate regardless of monthly consumption. For the consumption part, we also pay on a sliding scale, the more you consume, the more it costs. There is a second dimension, for water restrictions. The higher the restrictions, the higher the unit cost. The "network access charge" is R141.70.

SOURCE: https://www.tshwane.gov.za/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php?juwpfisadmin=false&action=wpfd&task=file.download&wpfd_category_id=266&wpfd_file_id=28722 section B paragraph (a) and (b). 

Note: These costs are for the FY 1 Jul '22 to 30 Jun '23. So it's going to change in 2 months, but more than likely the costs are only changing, and the structure remains the same. 

 

 

PS. See how I backed my claims with actual evidence, straight from the horse's mouth 😉

1 hour ago, JustinSchoeman said:

The courier does not need to build and maintain a road to your house.

Many roads are privately build and maintained.

And yes some like in the Eastern Cape DO in fact still cut the grass next to roads. 

14 minutes ago, suds7162 said:

Again, @Eurard, you HAVE to qualify statements like this either with proof, or at least indicate which council is invoicing you. 

I'm with Tshwane (COT), and I pay no surcharge. I get exactly the amount I pay for. In fact, before I had solar, my second purchase for the month would result in less units, because my unit cost goes up, the more I buy.

In Tshwane, the electricity costs are identical for pre- and postpaid customers, according to the following sliding scale, monthly:

1. 0 - 100kWh = 209.70c / kWh
2. 101 - 400kWh = 245.41c / kWh
3. 401 - 650kWh = 267.38c / kWh
4. >650kWh = 288.24c / kWh

SOURCE: https://www.tshwane.gov.za/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php?juwpfisadmin=false&action=wpfd&task=file.download&wpfd_category_id=266&wpfd_file_id=28726 section A, paragraph 1.1

Interestingly, for water, we pay a "network access charge", which is a flat rate regardless of monthly consumption. For the consumption part, we also pay on a sliding scale, the more you consume, the more it costs. There is a second dimension, for water restrictions. The higher the restrictions, the higher the unit cost. The "network access charge" is R141.70.

SOURCE: https://www.tshwane.gov.za/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php?juwpfisadmin=false&action=wpfd&task=file.download&wpfd_category_id=266&wpfd_file_id=28722 section B paragraph (a) and (b). 

Note: These costs are for the FY 1 Jul '22 to 30 Jun '23. So it's going to change in 2 months, but more than likely the costs are only changing, and the structure remains the same. 

 

 

PS. See how I backed my claims with actual evidence, straight from the horse's mouth 😉

Ekurhuleni, paid via FNB or SBSA. And no Im not going to post a picture displaying personal info. Use it dont use it?

 

Ps your post is no proof its a link to the metro not at all indicting your cost also. Go visit the Ekurhuleni site for similar "proof", lol

 

If Tswane doesnt pay similar then count yourself blessed.

Edited May 19, 20233 yr by Eurard

2 hours ago, zsde said:

Eskom is a state owned enterprise. Their infrastructure is financed through your taxes and was built with your taxes. 
Should all energy providers be entitled to this "flat rate" that you propose? Isn't it a supply and demand principle?
Let's assume the petroleum industry comes up with the same argument and proposes a flat rate to be charged every time you fill your car with fuel to compensate for fluctuating fuel sales?

Firstly, the electrical infrastructure that actually connects to your house does not belong to Eskom, it belongs to the council. If your council invoices you for the electricity that you use, then it's their responsibility to maintain, repair and upgrade the infrastructure that supplies your house with electricity. I speak in general terms here, since most live in cities where the above apply. If you are invoiced directly by Eskom, like on smallholdings or farms, then it's different. Probably.

Secondly, you don't pay a flat rate for fuel, to the petroleum industry, but you do for using the road: tolls. 

The way I see it: I am now buying next to no electricity from my council every month. My consumption has gone way down. Yet, I still expect my municipality to maintain, repair and upgrade my connection, for the off chance that it's rainy and I might want to use some grid electricity to make up my solar deficit. This is very unfair, because my Neighbour, who uses a lot more grid than I do, is essentially subsidizing the maintenance costs for my connection. That's unfair, and I would not like that to happen to me. 

COT "Solved" this for water usage a while back, by charging customers a network access charge (see my previous post). Many households in Pretoria have boreholes so the same thing applies. You use next to no municipal water, yet you expect them to maintain the infrastructure for you.

In the old days, a per-usage charge made sense, because everyone's usage was very close to average. Now with solar, some people are using nothing, where others are using "normal" amounts. Somebody has to pay for the infrastructure maintenance. And now with so many going over to solar, you can't build those costs into your consumption charges. 

And in all honesty, don't come to me with the bullshit that my tax is going towards these infra costs. I'd MUCH rather pay for a specific line item that I know goes to electricity infra maintenance, instead some opaque charge that I have no control over where it goes. That way I can choose to not pay it, and then not get the benefit that that service provides. i.e. not have a grid connection and be totally off-grid. It already works like this for national roads. I can choose to not pay for highway maintenance, by not paying toll fees, but then I need to find an alternative route.

6 minutes ago, Eurard said:

Ekurhuleni, paid via FNB or SBSA. And no Im not going to post a picture displaying personal info. Use it dont use it?

 

Ps your post is no proof its a link to the metro not at all indicting your cost also. Go visit the Ekurhuleni site for similar "proof", lol

 

If Tswane doesnt pay similar then count yourself blessed.

What I'm exploring is the possibility that it's your bank adding the service fee. If they do that, then that's nothing that a municipality can control.

One defence I have in this situation is that I don't have to buy via FNB or any other bank. There are two supermarkets within walking distance of me where I can buy units. I just use FNB because it's the most convenient for me.

5 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

What I'm exploring is the possibility that it's your bank adding the service fee. If they do that, then that's nothing that a municipality can control.

One defence I have in this situation is that I don't have to buy via FNB or any other bank. There are two supermarkets within walking distance of me where I can buy units. I just use FNB because it's the most convenient for me.

7 minutes ago, Eurard said:

Ps your post is no proof its a link to the metro not at all indicting your cost also. Go visit the Ekurhuleni site for similar "proof", lol

My links go to PDF documents that contain all the costs and charges that I explained. If those links don't work, then I profusely apologize. I can't attach the documents myself, as they are too large, but you can go to Promulgated Tariffs – City of Tshwane to download them for yourself.

I also did as you suggested, and went to the City of Ekurhuleni, and found the following page: Tariffs - City of Ekurhuleni. Downloading the "electricity tariffs" (Schedule 2) PDF contains all the information and backs your claim of a R55.88 fixed charge. So I'm not sure why you are being sarcastic and calling it "proof", it's all there, in a (very) neat document. Nobody was disputing your claim of a R55 fixed charge. We just need to know for which council, because it's VASTLY different between them, and it does not help the rest in this forum if you make a blanket statement that does not apply to 95% of the rest of the country.

5 minutes ago, suds7162 said:

The way I see it: I am now buying next to no electricity from my council every month. My consumption has gone way down. Yet, I still expect my municipality to maintain, repair and upgrade my connection, for the off chance that it's rainy and I might want to use some grid electricity to make up my solar deficit. This is very unfair, because my Neighbour, who uses a lot more grid than I do, is essentially subsidizing the maintenance costs for my connection. That's unfair, and I would not like that to happen to me. 

I agree with this, but perhaps not loudly. When COJ proposed a flat monthly fee per pre-paid meter I objected - because that's what suits me. And because as a pre-paid user in COJ I pay more per kWh and I pay up front. But I could see their point.

I am guessing that the original idea, many years ago, was to provide a cheaper alternative for low-income households. Then smartarses like me come along, read the tariff tables, do some sums and realise they can make back the cost of conversion in two months and then save a nice amount every month, and next thing you know, people in nice middle class (and better) suburbs are taking advantage of the City's generosity.

What is eventually going to happen, it seems to me, is that eventually they will find some way to equalise the tariffs. With each budget year the gap between post paid and pre paid reduces. The real losers in this are those poor folks. I was delighed a couple of years ago to see a proposed low tariff for households that had or would accept a 20A main breaker, who did not exceed a certain limit in the month, and who did not have a PV system (which would make it too easy to meet the conditions). For whatever reason this was rejected and the poor got hit with the same fat Eskom increase as everybody else, and too add insult to injury, the first step on the tariff table was reduced so that they got less low cost units per month.

Just now, suds7162 said:

My links go to PDF documents that contain all the costs and charges that I explained. If those links don't work, then I profusely apologize. I can't attach the documents myself, as they are too large, but you can go to Promulgated Tariffs – City of Tshwane to download them for yourself.

I also did as you suggested, and went to the City of Ekurhuleni, and found the following page: Tariffs - City of Ekurhuleni. Downloading the "electricity tariffs" (Schedule 2) PDF contains all the information and backs your claim of a R55.88 fixed charge. So I'm not sure why you are being sarcastic and calling it "proof", it's all there, in a (very) neat document. Nobody was disputing your claim of a R55 fixed charge. We just need to know for which council, because it's VASTLY different between them, and it does not help the rest in this forum if you make a blanket statement that does not apply to 95% of the rest of the country.

Seems you over there in Tswane dont pay these, lucky!

So next time ask nicely rather than asking for proof as if I'm lying, there are ways to ask and then there are ways to ask ...

"you HAVE to qualify statements like this either with proof", I don't HAVE to anything in life. Well eat and go to the bathroom I guess is non-negotiable. 😉

I will never state anything that I pull out of thin air, but then again you don't know me, if you did, you'd know this. Sorry my fault ... but now you know.

2 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

I was delighed a couple of years ago to see a proposed low tariff for households that had or would accept a 20A main breaker, who did not exceed a certain limit in the month

I would happily opt for this option, if it meant lower unit costs, and if they want to bring in a flat charge, make it less because my peak consumption is less. Feels like a win-win. 

7 minutes ago, suds7162 said:

My links go to PDF documents that contain all the costs and charges that I explained. If those links don't work, then I profusely apologize. I can't attach the documents myself, as they are too large, but you can go to Promulgated Tariffs – City of Tshwane to download them for yourself.

I also did as you suggested, and went to the City of Ekurhuleni, and found the following page: Tariffs - City of Ekurhuleni. Downloading the "electricity tariffs" (Schedule 2) PDF contains all the information and backs your claim of a R55.88 fixed charge. So I'm not sure why you are being sarcastic and calling it "proof", it's all there, in a (very) neat document. Nobody was disputing your claim of a R55 fixed charge. We just need to know for which council, because it's VASTLY different between them, and it does not help the rest in this forum if you make a blanket statement that does not apply to 95% of the rest of the country.

I don't think there's any doubt that @Eurard is paying a service charge each month. The question must be who he's paying it to and for what. The city doesn't appear to be applying flat fees.

The information on the LTC Electrical site is outdated. Which is a pity because I got quite lekker when I saw the way the tariffs were structured, and how they did provide a small amount of electricity for free each month, and the low flat fee per month on post-paid accounts. 

4 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

I don't think there's any doubt that @Eurard is paying a service charge each month. The question must be who he's paying it to and for what. The city doesn't appear to be applying flat fees.

The information on the LTC Electrical site is outdated. Which is a pity because I got quite lekker when I saw the way the tariffs were structured, and how they did provide a small amount of electricity for free each month, and the low flat fee per month on post-paid accounts. 

@Bobster. look at my links in my previous post, on the COE website they clearly state the R55 flat charge

5 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

I don't think there's any doubt that @Eurard is paying a service charge each month. The question must be who he's paying it to and for what. The city doesn't appear to be applying flat fees.

The information on the LTC Electrical site is outdated. Which is a pity because I got quite lekker when I saw the way the tariffs were structured, and how they did provide a small amount of electricity for free each month, and the low flat fee per month on post-paid accounts. 

Think it is the Muni, looking at the Muni site. This is their Pound of flesh and stop paying this will for sure cause them to raise some eyebrows, they got used to having extra sauce with their meals.

Edited May 19, 20233 yr by Eurard

11 minutes ago, Eurard said:

Seems you over there in Tswane dont pay these, lucky!

So next time ask nicely rather than asking for proof as if I'm lying, there are ways to ask and then there are ways to ask ...

"you HAVE to qualify statements like this either with proof", I don't HAVE to anything in life. Well eat and go to the bathroom I guess is non-negotiable. 😉

I will never state anything that I pull out of thin air, but then again you don't know me, if you did, you'd know this. Sorry my fault ... but now you know.

Never said you were lying, it's just important that we know where you are, and whom you are paying. Puts a lot of things in context. I realize now that my all-caps "HAVE" came across poorly. Sorry about that.

Also, we don't have the R55 flat rate charge, but you get R0.80 per kWh that you sell back. I would happily pay R55/month, and be able to sell my excess PV back! You are the lucky one! 😂

Delving deeper and looking at the NERSA doc:

https://www.nersa.org.za/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/2022/10/Approved-Municipal-Electricity-Tariffs-2022-23.pdf

 

Interesting that it differs so much from Muni to Muni, baas Teds.

7 minutes ago, Eurard said:

Think it is the Muni, looking at the Muni site. This is their Pound of flesh and stop paying this will for sure cause them to raise some eyebrows, they got used to having extra sauce with their meals.

R57.00 is not a lot of money. In COJ the pre-paid customer has no fixed fees but pays a higher rate per kWh, whilst post-paid customers get hit north of R700 per month in flat fees. So I think you're getting a good deal. 

10 minutes ago, suds7162 said:

Never said you were lying, it's just important that we know where you are, and whom you are paying. Puts a lot of things in context. I realize now that my all-caps "HAVE" came across poorly. Sorry about that.

Also, we don't have the R55 flat rate charge, but you get R0.80 per kWh that you sell back. I would happily pay R55/month, and be able to sell my excess PV back! You are the lucky one! 😂

No sweat man, ALL GOOD, lol

Now, I dont want to sell back, until I precisely know all the hidden costs, involved, havent looked into it further, as there are for sure costs involved with converting, and then have a later surprize where a "New fee" might pop up.

 

https://www.ekurhuleni.gov.za/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/SSEG-General-Information-for-Public-General-1.pdf

Edited May 19, 20233 yr by Eurard

11 minutes ago, Eurard said:

No sweat man, ALL GOOD, lol

Now, I dont want to sell back, until I precisely know all the hidden costs, involved, havent looked into it further, as there are for sure costs involved with converting, and then have a later surprize where a "New fee" might pop up.

 

https://www.ekurhuleni.gov.za/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/SSEG-General-Information-for-Public-General-1.pdf

So as per you document from the munic and 1st link R57 plus VAT is R65?? 

I am just lucky we don't have a fixed charge YET but don't have a choice of 100 units for free each month. 

Also not so lucky that we pay more per unit than our friends over the Jukskei.

I feel for the guys in cluster complexes where their is 1 meter point so they pay over R5 per unit due to high level of use and the munic refuse to put in a meter point per apartment. Ekhuruleni. 

Edited May 19, 20233 yr by Scorp007

12 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

R57.00 is not a lot of money. In COJ the pre-paid customer has no fixed fees but pays a higher rate per kWh, whilst post-paid customers get hit north of R700 per month in flat fees. So I think you're getting a good deal. 

FWIW I am still on post paid and my monthly fixed fees with CoJ is R887 (VAT incl)