I’m looking at different options to reduce my current water heating bill.
I have a 200l geyser with a 4kW element (set to 55deg) which runs off a timer as follows:

05h15-06h45 and 15h30-19h30

My current daily power usage is approx 18-20kWh.

I am investigating the option of a 5.4kW ITS heat pump which I am told will provide equivalent volume and rate of hot water (up to 60deg) but at a fraction of the power usage as my current geyser and element.

1) BRAND AND RELIABILITY: are ITS heat pumps reputable and reliable? Any other recommendations?

2) EFFICIENCY: is the claimed 1,2kW per hour power usage and the claimed 1.5-2hr time to heat water from 20 to 60deg both realistic?

3) MAINTENANCE: I’ve heard mixed opinions regarding the cost of maintaining heat pumps. Any opinions on maintaining ITS heat pumps?

4) NOISE: I’ve been told heat pumps are not exactly silent. My geyser is outside my kitchen and it makes practical sense to have the heat pump directly adjacent the geyser. Will this make the kitchen unpleasantly noisy?

5) INVERTER: with a power usage of 2kW, will I be able to run heat pump off solar and potentially also batteries? I’ve been advised this is not a good idea. any advice?

Any thoughts on all/some of the above heat pump issues would be appreciated.

 

Edited June 23, 20233 yr by RichardvdS

8 hours ago, RichardvdS said:

NOISE: I’ve been told heat pumps are not exactly silent. My geyser is outside my kitchen and it makes practical sense to have the heat pump directly adjacent the geyser. Will this make the kitchen unpleasantly noisy?

There will be a whirring of a motor driven fan. For my older unit this is audible but not unpleasant. You could have a conversation.

Mine is outside the bathroom and I hear it through the window but, again, it's not unpleasant. Maybe like an air conditioner. 

8 hours ago, RichardvdS said:

5) INVERTER: with a power usage of 2kW, will I be able to run heat pump off solar and potentially also batteries? I’ve been advised this is not a good idea. any advice?

You don't tell us about your PV system. With mine, whilst the grid is up, the heatpump runs from solar, battery, grid in that order (ie if there is enough solar then that's all that's used, etc). It did this even when on the non-essential side of the system. So it would spare the solar & battery when the grid was down (and wouldn't run at all). 

So my advice to you is to put it on the non-essential side first, and watch the system. 

I could see that most days the heatpump would run off the batteries in the early AM and when the sun came up, the system would recover without my battery getting too low. 

So I had an electrician move it to the essentials. 

There's no one answer here. It depends on your circumstances. I would get away with your early morning run, but not the PM run. The pump would start up as solar production tails off and would start depleting the battery. We're two people and I can do the second run from 12:00 to 15:00, and it never uses all of that. 

Bear in mind that if you run it as an essential load, it will contribute towards the total load the system can support. 

Maybe you can change the times for the afternoon run, or do an earlier run to preheat the water so that it uses less power later. 

Can the household change their routines as regard showering? 

There's no simple yes/no answer here. My advice is to start with it not backed up, observe, and then decide. Moving it from non-essential to essential, or back again, will not take a competent electrician very long. 

 

5m away from my 12 y old ITS the level of sound is 40dB. This is like the level of whisper. Nothing louder than an aircon. 

Running maintenance can be as low as an annual clean with a blower. Only repair was a pump 5 yrs ago due to no strainer installed in the 1st place. 

Savings vs an element at real cost of power over 12 yrs comes to R58 000. The cost table I placed in a different topic recently. 

Sometimes we listen to hear say instead of actual users view. 

36 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

5m away from my 12 y old ITS the level of sound is 40dB. This is like the level of whisper. Nothing louder than an aircon. 

Running maintenance can be as low as an annual clean with a blower. Only repair was a pump 5 yrs ago due to no strainer installed in the 1st place. 

Savings vs an element at real cost of power over 12 yrs comes to R58 000. The cost table I placed in a different topic recently. 

Sometimes we listen to hear say instead of actual users view. 

007, our resident heatpump evangelist.  You are slowly but surely making me leaning towards one. 

1 hour ago, BritishRacingGreen said:

007, our resident heatpump evangelist.  You are slowly but surely making me leaning towards one. 

It is interesting if one looks back over decades. In the late 1970's I worked as snr on shift keeping the wheels turning 24/7 and the plant had 12.5MVA powering 5 induction heaters. These units melted the tin plating on the about 1.2m wide material that was used for oil cans as well as all the canned food at the time. After tinning the plate had a matt finish and during the heating the tin got melted to create the shining surface. The steel plate passed through the induction heater at about 400m per minute. This was the most dreaded piece of equipment to maintain. Tank capacitors were about the size of a 80L oil drum. The plant also had 7.5kW 3 phase AC motors turning some heat pump compressors. 

Yes to think that today we use the same technology in our homes 30yrs later. 😀😀😀

Edited June 24, 20233 yr by Scorp007

21 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

It is interesting if one looks back over decades. In the late 1970's I worked as snr on shift keeping the wheels turning 24/7 and the plant had 12.5MVA powering 5 induction heaters. These units melted the tin plating on the about 1.2m wide material that was used for oil cans as well as all the canned food at the time. After tinning the plate had a matt finish and during the heating the tin got melted to create the shining surface. The steel plate passed through the induction heater at about 400m per minute. This was the most dreaded piece of equipment to maintain. Tank capacitors were about the size of a 80L oil drum. The plant also had 7.5kW 3 phase AC motors turning some heat pump compressors. 

Yes to think that today we use the same technology in our homes 30yrs later. 😀😀😀

@Scorp007 I worked in a similar plant at Iscor works in Vanderbijlpark, (tinning Line) 

1 hour ago, Antonio de Sa said:

@Scorp007 I worked in a similar plant at Iscor works in Vanderbijlpark, (tinning Line) 

Which years? I was at the south works section. 

31 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

Which years? I was at the south works section. 

@Scorp007 1980 until 1984, also at the South works in the electrical Maintenace workshop. Tin line, and coil prep line. And done allot of maintenance on the tank capacitors that you mention above,  we did know any better at the time, and use to drain the freon gas at will, we must of caused allot of damage to the Ozone layer.

Edited June 24, 20233 yr by Antonio de Sa

24 minutes ago, Antonio de Sa said:

@Scorp007 1980 until 1984, also at the South works in the electrical Maintenace workshop. Tin line, and coil prep line. And done allot of maintenance on the tank capacitors that you mention above,  we did know any better at the time, and use to drain the freon gas at will, we must of caused allot of damage to the Ozone layer.

OK. So at the time guys like Tienie, Gert, Kobus, Alec, Charlie were some of the other guys. I left in 1980.

8 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

OK. So at the time guys like Tienie, Gert, Kobus, Alec, Charlie were some of the other guys. I left in 1980.

your memory is excellent, brings back memories. 

Edited June 24, 20233 yr by Antonio de Sa

15 hours ago, RichardvdS said:

1) BRAND AND RELIABILITY: are ITS heat pumps reputable and reliable? Any other recommendations?

I bought one second hand ITS 4.7kW, and did a DIY install it has been running about 2 years. The label on the side says 2010-04.

15 hours ago, RichardvdS said:

2) EFFICIENCY: is the claimed 1,2kW per hour power usage and the claimed 1.5-2hr time to heat water from 20 to 60deg both realistic?

As the compressor ramps up the pressure it draws slightly more power I have seen it reach 1.8kW (trying to reach 56degrees but manual recommended your run it to 53degrees) but generally it pulls around 1.1 - 1.2kW

During summer it heats the water in about 45 minutes. During winter 1h40-2h00 (water starts at 20 deg and gets heated to 53 degrees) I believe the newer models achieve higher temps

15 hours ago, RichardvdS said:

3) MAINTENANCE: I’ve heard mixed opinions regarding the cost of maintaining heat pumps. Any opinions on maintaining ITS heat pumps?

At the coast you need to treat it with an anti rust agent, I'm in Pretoria so this is not an issue

I simply remove any leaves and wash off the dust with a hosepipe once a year.

You should also drain the strainer of any debris that might have gotten into the water line at least once a year

I have no warranty so I am not going to pay someone to do the above for me

15 hours ago, RichardvdS said:

4) NOISE: I’ve been told heat pumps are not exactly silent. My geyser is outside my kitchen and it makes practical sense to have the heat pump directly adjacent the geyser. Will this make the kitchen unpleasantly noisy?

No, if it is quiet you can hear there is something running, like the hum of an old fridge

Outside if you are standing next to it you can still have a conversation, it is not too bad

 

15 hours ago, RichardvdS said:

5) INVERTER: with a power usage of 2kW, will I be able to run heat pump off solar and potentially also batteries? I’ve been advised this is not a good idea. any advice?

I run mine on the inverter on battery power (if I have enough left) early mornings. If the loadshedding falls at that time it needs to run I simply schedule it earlier or I reserve more battery. Most days I run without needing any grid power. My heatpump is scheduled via my home assistant with a smart switch so it is easy to adjust the schedule to suit my lifestyle. It is connected to essentials and it is such a light load so running on the inverter should not be an issue

 

This is my consumption for the month of June (24 Days), most days I run it once (for 2 people showering). Some days it runs twice depending on our needs (morning and evening showers). 

 

And the temperature of my geyser

 

My sensor is closer to the bottom so the temperature is generally the coldest water in the system. After a shower it might drop down to 20degrees, but if you shower in the next 4-5 hours the water is still warm enough (40-45 degrees) at the top

Edited June 24, 20233 yr by iiznh

2 hours ago, Superfly said:

@Scorp007 So Scorps after much umming and ahing  ..  You convinced me to go with the heat pump. Is this one ok? Not sure if the R3k saving on a 3.4kw is worth it - have a 150l geyser

https://rightair.co.za/product/its-4-5kw-super-geyser-heat-pump/

My geyser (and inverters) are in the garage - I want to install it next to the geyser (on the beams / no ceiling) for ease of plumbing/connection... thoughts?

 

Yes this is the size I have. It helps to reduce winter run time by going for the 4.5kW vs the 3kW.

The picture looks very much like mine. My front cover is just 1 piece while the new one looks like 2. The side with the connections looks just like mine. 

This one also looks good:

https://acdirect.co.za/product/alliance-domestic-hot-water-heat-pump-for-geyser-5-5kw/

How does this compare to the ITS I wonder?

21 minutes ago, HendrikBigChief said:

This one also looks good:

https://acdirect.co.za/product/alliance-domestic-hot-water-heat-pump-for-geyser-5-5kw/

How does this compare to the ITS I wonder?

At the time I bought my ITS a supplier said not let's install another very common brand. I mentioned to them the unique patented valve used on the ITS to prevent cold incoming water to mix with the hot water. Said no it makes no difference. Well 2 days later I got it removed as you could not even get a half a bath of luke warm water. 

The ITS was fitted and happy days for us. My winter run time does not increase as much as @iiznh

at 3 times longer but does take about 2 times longer. In summer it heats far faster than a 3kW element would with a 150L geyser. Also mine never goes higher than 1.5kW and that is the draw from about 3min after it switched on. Mine is fitted with an inverter start PCB/motor.

When we have a shower I find only 5-8 degrees drop in temp but my thermostat/temp pocket probe is in the middle of the geyser. When running a bath it drops to 26 degrees. 

3 hours ago, HendrikBigChief said:

This one also looks good:

https://acdirect.co.za/product/alliance-domestic-hot-water-heat-pump-for-geyser-5-5kw/

How does this compare to the ITS I wonder?

I have a friend who installed a 3.0kW Alliance heat pump. After about three years it is badly rusted (admittedly in a coastal climate in Port Elizabeth) and does not appear to heat much above 37deg (not sure if this is linked to the one way valve issue mentioned by @Scorp007  It apparently also needs a re-gas at least once a year which apparently should not be the case with a closed heat pump system. 

4 minutes ago, RichardvdS said:

It apparently also needs a re-gas at least once a year which apparently should not be the case with a closed heat pump system. 

Mine still has the original gas from 2010, it has a pressure gauge that shows the pressure. It is a closed system and should not lose pressure. Losing pressure means it is faulty and needs to be repaired by a specialist.  

 

24 minutes ago, RichardvdS said:

I have a friend who installed a 3.0kW Alliance heat pump. After about three years it is badly rusted (admittedly in a coastal climate in Port Elizabeth) and does not appear to heat much above 37deg (not sure if this is linked to the one way valve issue mentioned by @Scorp007  It apparently also needs a re-gas at least once a year which apparently should not be the case with a closed heat pump system. 

No the valve I mentioned is to heat in the heat pump before sending to the geyser. It is not related to the 37 degrees only. It seems there could be a gas problem. After 12 yrs no re-gas has been needed on mine. My pressure gauge also shows all is healthy. What is confusing is when my feed pump packed up it gave a gas high/low error which was the wrong description. 

13 hours ago, Superfly said:

Yep I'm installing mine in the garage so no problem with rust etc (not that I'm sea board) but still good point... 

I would love to install a heat pump in the roof, but I doubt it would be legal. Would be perfect however, cool the roof and heat the tank real quick. Might be a bit noisy..

Edited June 25, 20233 yr by HendrikBigChief

1 hour ago, HendrikBigChief said:

I would love to install a heat pump in the roof, but I doubt it would be legal. Would be perfect however, cool the roof and heat the tank real quick. Might be a bit noisy..

Remember the cooler the air that it sucks in the more power it would use so not a good idea. Also no warranty as it will work so much harder than when fed ambient air. Rather have a position where the cool air could be pushed into the roof cavity. 

Don't put a heat pump in an enclosed space. There is not enough heat capacity for it to work effectively.

22 hours ago, P1000 said:

Don't put a heat pump in an enclosed space. There is not enough heat capacity for it to work effectively.

The garage should be perfect for a geyser heat pump, it will cool the garage in summer and in winter the HP will be more efficient as I am sure the garage is warmer than outdoors.

28 minutes ago, HendrikBigChief said:

The garage should be perfect for a geyser heat pump, it will cool the garage in summer and in winter the HP will be more efficient as I am sure the garage is warmer than outdoors.

That might seem like a good idea at first, but your efficiency will go down a lot with the temperature in the garage dropping to way below ambient. So you end up having a garage that is occasionally also a walk in freezer and a higher energy bill...

Just install it so that you can easily move it later. And post your findings here.

40 minutes ago, HendrikBigChief said:

The garage should be perfect for a geyser heat pump, it will cool the garage in summer and in winter the HP will be more efficient as I am sure the garage is warmer than outdoors.

You should not place your bets against physics and math

I think you overestimate the amount of Joules of energy stored in air. In winter (when you need it most) the space will get a lot colder than the outside leading to the pump needing to run longer and longer the colder it gets. If you want to cool down the area in summer, rather duct the cool air from the exhaust outflow into the closed space.

 

3 minutes ago, iiznh said:

You should not place your bets against physics and math

I think you overestimate the amount of Joules of energy stored in air. In winter (when you need it most) the space will get a lot colder than the outside leading to the pump needing to run longer and longer the colder it gets. If you want to cool down the area in summer, rather duct the cool air from the exhaust outflow into the closed space.

 

Then we go back to the post on Sunday 11h30 and 2 posts lower mentioned by @P1000

😀😀

12 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

Then we go back to the post on Sunday 11h30 and 2 posts lower mentioned by @P1000

I was thinking about adding in a calculation to prove the point... but it is way too early and my coffee hasn't kicked in yet and (my wife also told me that math is not for everyone)

So I just opted to add my voice to the choir and hope for the best. Some people want to discover the principles of physics by experimentation, and some of us google the formulas and calculate the values (so we can sound clever).