5 hours ago, cpbotha said:

R5k shared network charge, and the single phase split prepayment meter.

I probably also have no option than to go this route 🤬. I wonder what they are actually going to do to your supply. Do you think they will replace the meter? What is a split prepayment meter? @RautenkI think this is a topic for the discussions with Reyno. What do you think?

Edited May 2, 20197 yr by Fuenkli

2 minutes ago, Fuenkli said:

I probably also have no option than to go this route 🤬. I wonder what they are actually going to do to your supply. Do you think they will replace the meter? What is a split prepayment meter? @RautenkI think this is a topic for the discussions with Mr. Kenny. What do you think?

I have asked the CoCT to explain what the shared network charge (SNC) is for.

Also, RED Engineering (my amazing solar installer) warned that CoCT would replace my meter with a prepaid one in any case, even if I didn't request the 80A upgrade, simply due to the SSEG system.

2 minutes ago, cpbotha said:

that CoCT would replace my meter with a prepaid one in any case

True. So do you think that if you already have a prepaid meter the upgrade charge to 80A would be lower?

Just now, Fuenkli said:

True. So do you think that if you already have a prepaid meter the upgrade charge to 80A would be lower?

I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.

If this is the same prepaid meter than the one CoCT would have put in any way (at my cost), then indeed the upgrade cost is "only" the R5k SNC.

In the end we pay, that we don't have much control over. We do have some degree of control over how we feel about that. (that's true about many things in life.

51 minutes ago, cpbotha said:

If this is the same prepaid meter than the one CoCT would have put in any way (at my cost) ...

CoCT ran a special for one month last year to customers who wants to get a PAYG meter. 

Cost: Free.

Obviously I took them up on that special. 🙂 

Not having a PC at hand is sometimes a frustration, so please imagine that I am quoting the relevant part of Fuenkil's message. 

 

I doubt that the prepaid meter for SSEGs would be the same as the normal prepaid, reason being that the normal prepaid would be measuring current and not current direction, thus if you export you would pay for exporting as if you are using. The one they would be installing should be reading multiple registers and allow for net metering. 

And the city is hell bent in getting everyone onto prepaid. 

All said, I was under the impression that the city was progressive and opting for smart grid technology (thus the normal prepaid early on should have been the dual version now quoted). 

So @The Terrible Triplett, it would be interesting if you can find out if your meter is the net metering type... 

This definitely deserves to be on the list of questions to CoCT... 

 

9 hours ago, Rautenk said:

So @The Terrible Triplett, it would be interesting if you can find out if your meter is the net metering type... 

Nope, it is a ltron meter and it charges me if the Victron feeds back. That is but cents per day IF a lot of stuff goes on / off. Victron is very tight with that control.

But, you make a good point. It was an ideal chance for the City to do it better.

 

9 hours ago, Rautenk said:

And the city is hell bent in getting everyone onto prepaid. 

Three reasons I have been given in passing:
Less disputes about meter readings. Think of Gauteng and the bills there.
Less manpower wasted on taking manual meter readings.
Older meters are getting REALLY old / inaccurate / can easily be jippoed.
 

9 hours ago, Rautenk said:

And the city is hell bent in getting everyone onto prepaid. 

They pretty much use any excuse to move people to prepaid meters. Any modification of the system... here's your prepaid meter sir! It's an example of mechanisation... no need to send a dude on foot to go read all the meters anymore. Don't tell the unions.

You can however install the non-AMI meter if you're going to fit a grid limiter and not feed back. Again, I do expect that when you ask for a quote you will have to explicitly mention this because the default action is probably to just quote you on the AMI one.

A bit like the last car we financed. That initial quote came in with every darn option you could think of, live insurance, gap insurance, fixed interest rate... I immediately told the lady we don't need gap insurance (we're paying a large deposit for crying out loud!), we have plenty of live insurance already and any death in the family will lead to the vehicle being sold, and the only people who wins with a fixed interest rate is the bank... When I was done the quote was almost a third lower.

🙂

 

Edited May 3, 20197 yr by plonkster

@plonkster I made a mistake to post that Marius Fourie has an Hons Masters degree. It is actually an Hons BSc Engineering degree. A bit of Googling revealed that the honneurs qualification is a one year program following a Bachelors degree and is offered by universities like Pretoria and Wits. I could not find information of a similar qualification available from Stellenbosch, for instance, so do not know if they offer it.

1 hour ago, ebrsa said:

BSc Engineering degree

This is what remains confusing to me. BSc is Baccalaureus Scientiae, Bachelor of science. BEng is bachelor of engineering. They are completely different, I think about the only thing they have in common is mathematics (and even then it tends to diverge, B.Sc tends to go very analytical as you progress, B.Ing tends to go practical).

Bsc is a 3-year course in South African universities. You then do an extra year which gets you your honours degree (this is the qualification I have). You can then do a few more years, and that will gain you a Msc (master of science).

On the other end, BEng is a 4-year degree. There is no Hons. You immediately go for MEng after that (master of engineering).

Someone with a Bsc (ie, someone like me) are not authoritative on this topic. If I have to say so myself... 🙂

Edit: I mean, we may know what we're talking about... but not on account of our qualification. We'd have to talk on the basis of our experience in the field (and so on). Cape Town seems to have a completely different interpretation as my plain-English reading for example...

Edited May 5, 20197 yr by plonkster

@plonkster This is all of interest. When I attended Stellenbosch university to study engineering for a year in 1957, before I decided that was not for me, I guess things were somewhat different. It was a 5 year course then and on successful completion one received both a BSc and a BSc(Ing) degree. Also the maths subjects were both mathematics and applied mathematics. All other SA universities offered 4 year engineering degrees, at least those that did offer engineering. Change of the times.

B.Eng and Bsc. Eng is the same and both accredited by ECSA under the Washington accord. 

It covers exactly the same level of subjects, it is just a different naming and way of presenting it. 

The after graduation is what is a bit different. At Stellenbosch and UCT you will go into a 2 years master degree, where as at University of  Pretoria you do Honours for a year and then masters for another year. 

 

2 hours ago, ebrsa said:

one received both a BSc and a BSc(Ing) degree.

Aaah yes! This was also available in my day. It was called "Bsc with engineering subjects", and after 3 years it yielded a "normal" Bsc degree. Then you did two more years and you also got your BEng after that, so it left you with two degrees. The upside was you could do both in 5 years. I started on that course... and dropped it when I realised it meant 3 years of Physics (which was not my thing, I ended up majoring in computer science and applied math). The workload on that course was insane...

Sometimes I regret making the switch, but I probably wouldn't be where I am if I didn't make the switch. Wouldn't have noticed that cute girl in math class (which also wouldn't have happened if I didn't flunk maths the first time round), probably wouldn't be lviing here, etc etc. 🙂

Anyway, I do apologise for questioning Mr. Fourie's credentials, but I do insist the best people to ask are electrical engineers with at least a B.Eng. While I often have a lot to say about these regs... the truth is that I'm not qualified to make the call. I can however read English... and UPSes used for SSEG... that is definitely in NRS097, albeit very briefly 🙂

 

On 2019/05/02 at 10:02 AM, ebrsa said:

My appointment with our Director is for 15h00 today and as I live in Swartland municipality,  that is where I will seek clarity.

That was posted on Thursday last week. What was the feedback @ebrsa ?

@The Terrible Triplett@SilverNodashi

23 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

@The Terrible Triplett@SilverNodashi

Yes? 🙂 

@The Terrible Triplett Sorry about the empty post which I just could not delete. As to your question,  I have compiled a reply but have emailed it to the Director this yesterday  afternoon with the request to check the content to ensure that I did not make any mistakes. As soon as I get it back,  I will post it. But since I have frequent discussions with the administration and the mayor, sometimes with different opinions, I do not want to be proven factually wrong if I can at all avoid it.

The appointment that I requested with our Director Electrical Engineering Services was as chairman of the Yzerfontein Residents’ Association as I thought it may be useful for our members to know as much as possible about local requirements for PV installations. The intention is to post the information obtained on our website.

I was accompanied by another committee member and we had a most fruitful and interesting meeting although I fear we may have overstayed our welcome as it lasted a considerable time. However it just got so interesting that new questions kept popping up. The intention was not to discuss any particular inverter, whether grid-tied or grid connected, but rather to ascertain requirements by the municipality and clarity of terminology in the application form.

It is now clear to me why municipalities are limiting feed-in capacity, something many may understand but some, like me, may not. It was explained that SSEG units manage to feed into the grid by raising their voltage above the grid voltage, thereby causing current to flow towards the grid. Imagine a large group of households, supplied by the same transformer and feeding excess generation into the grid. Unless suitable limitation control exists on the SSEG units, the voltage would just keep rising and cause an imbalance which may during periods of low consumption result in voltages in excess of tolerable legal levels. The details I would leave to the experts as it does not affect me and gets a bit too technical for my aging brain.

Swartland Municipality requires compliance with NRS 097 and the RSA Renewable Plant Grid Code in terms of their application form. Grid-tied is defined as: “An SSEG that is connected to the utility grid either directly or through a consumer’s internal wiring is said to be “grid-tied”. The export of energy onto the utility grid is possible when generation exceeds consumption at any point in time. Such consumers would rely on the utility grid to supply them with electricity when the instantaneous generation is insufficient to supply the instantaneous consumption.”

A Stand-alone generator is defined as: “A generator that is not in any way connected to the utility grid. Export of energy onto the utility grid by the generator is therefore not possible.” Stand-alone generators are not required to register.

Grid-tied installations are required to be signed off by an ECSA registered engineer or technologist and test certification, as specified in NRS097-2-1, by a 3^rd party test house, must be submitted as well as a CoC as per SANS 10142-1.

The Director did explain that a CoC for the whole house is in fact the responsibility of the home owner. That is why municipalities no longer have inspectors who go around checking houses. This is similar to the owner being responsible to ascertain that a contractor building or renovating his house is registered with the entity concerned and has paid up fees in respect of his workers. Should that not be the case, the registering entity may claim any medical costs and whatever else from the home owner in the case of an accident.

Whether any particular brand of inverter may be connected to the grid in terms of the Swartland requirements is not something I wish to comment on as only the residents of Swartland would be affected. I do however believe that the municipality has a mature attitude regarding requirements for PV installations. They did after all receive 7 consecutive clean audits and was recently judged the 3^rd best managed municipality in the country. That is not to cast criticism on anyone else, the decisions of which are solely the business of their residents.

What I did learn and of great value to me is that whatever I do, I remain the responsible party and do require a CoC for the whole house. What CoCT requires also only affects the residents of the Metro although their regulations have been the subject of much gnashing of teeth on this forum.

 

12 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

1) ... why municipalities are limiting feed-in capacity, ...

2) Swartland Municipality requires compliance with NRS 097 and the RSA Renewable Plant Grid Code in terms of their application form.

3) Whether any particular brand of inverter may be connected to the grid in terms of the Swartland requirements is not something I wish to comment on as only the residents of Swartland would be affected.

4) ... although their regulations have been the subject of much gnashing of teeth on this forum.

 

1) Jip, we have deduced that here on PF. Issue is not ones own home but being one of i.e. a 1000 others all on the same transformer. 
2) So does CoCT - NRS and SANS regulations both are national, not CoCT or Swartland specific. 😉 
3) Interesting. So I deduce that they are saying you can connect any inverter if you live in the Swartland, as long as it meets point 2, no?
4) The last fiasco has been sorted, if the inverter is on the list, the Bob's your uncle - and the regs are still in flux in talking to my Sparkie this morning. Him having been on a seminar where a lot of questions where raised and answered, earthing one of the burning issues.

But, having said all that, what is Swarltand allowing ito what inverters can be connected? Are they saying anything goes as long as YOU take all the responsibility?

Edited May 6, 20197 yr by Guest

Standalone generator need not register in Swartland Muni - this differs from CoCT who not only want it registered but also approved. That is if a standalone generator is the same as CoCT's standalone Off-grid/UPS small scale embedded generator which I'd assume it is.

Main take-away: Grid-tied = Able to feed back energy. Stand alone generator (offgrid/UPS) = Not able to feed-back energy.

This should close the discussion around the Axperts AC input meaning grid-tied.

6 minutes ago, PeterP said:

registered but also approved

This is actually incorrect, it needs to be registered and with that a CoC is required. Standard for any change to your internal electrical system. The registration is for them to make sure they have you on record as off-grid (note this counts even if you have PV panels on your geyser, as opposed to SWH with flatplate or evac tubes).

7 minutes ago, PeterP said:

This should close the discussion around the Axperts AC input meaning grid-tied.

You are allowed to install an Axpert... However you will have to install it as you would install a standard generator. With the change over switches etc. 

34 minutes ago, PeterP said:

Standalone generator need not register in Swartland Muni - this differs from CoCT who not only want it registered but also approved. That is if a standalone generator is the same as CoCT's standalone Off-grid/UPS small scale embedded generator which I'd assume it is.

CoCT just wants you to register your off-grid system so that they don't have to go and check each one. Pretty fair if you ask me AND it saves on our rates and taxes ito salaries to police it all. EDIT: They apparently send someone to your house to confirm it is off-grid.

34 minutes ago, PeterP said:

Main take-away: Grid-tied = Able to feed back energy. Stand alone generator (offgrid/UPS) = Not able to feed-back energy.

Jip, we are all aware of that. 🙂 

34 minutes ago, PeterP said:

This should close the discussion around the Axperts AC input meaning grid-tied.

What Rautenk said - NRS and SANS regulations if I'm not mistaken.

CoCT is not the problem. SANS and NRS and the interpretations of it all, with new regs on the way, is brand new for SA, and THAT is the challenge. 😉 
Not CoCT per se. NERSA are the guys driving it.

Edited May 6, 20197 yr by Guest

15 minutes ago, PeterP said:

Main take-away: Grid-tied = Able to feed back energy. Stand alone generator (offgrid/UPS) = Not able to feed-back energy.

Not exactly.

CoCT also defines grid-tied as "connected to the utility grid either directly or through a consumer’s internal wiring". For the sake of these definitions, even if your inverter is for some or other reason not capable to feed back into the grid, but it's still connected to the grid in order to be able to use incoming AC, it is still classified as grid-tied.

Guys and Gals. 

My grid-tied application is done and nearly dusted. Just waiting for CoCT's final letter of approval as all the paperwork is in.

Quite easy actually now that they explained the changeover switch requirement.

The steps are:
First identify a AC/DC qualified Sparkie to do the job.
1) Send in the paperwork to register your intention to install. This level does not need anything yet like tests, inverter (pencil it in), Sparkie (pencil him/her in) etc etc etc. Send it in. They need to check things their side first. You get a email to continue.

Once they give the go-ahead that they can accommodate the install on their equipment, that they like the inverter:
2)  Then you do the test on the DB and make sure you have the space for the changes you want to do. These costs can quickly escalate!
Note: These tests have NOTHING to do with grid-tied or CoCT, just plain common sense to ensure the basics are ready for altering the DB, for connecting more equipment to it, that the earthing works properly.

Once checked and confirmed then get the right equipment by staying within the regulations:
3) Are all the NRS and SANS regulations met ito of the equipment? Regulations which are not CoCT regulations but RSA National Regulations.

Now install it all:
4) Get the CoC.
5) Get engineer in to sign it off.

Send the paperwork in, sit back and wait for them to give the go-ahead to switch on. 🙂 

Easy as that. Don't spend one cent on anything until you have the bare bones in place. 

 

3 hours ago, cpbotha said:

Not exactly.

CoCT also defines grid-tied as "connected to the utility grid either directly or through a consumer’s internal wiring". For the sake of these definitions, even if your inverter is for some or other reason not capable to feed back into the grid, but it's still connected to the grid in order to be able to use incoming AC, it is still classified as grid-tied.

Disagree - the key is whether it can feed-back. Ebrsa's meeting confirms this.

"CoCT just wants you to register your off-grid system so that they don't have to go and check each one. Pretty fair if you ask me AND it saves on our rates and taxes ito salaries to police it all. EDIT: They apparently send someone to your house to confirm it is off-grid."

The wording on CoCT website clearly states that they must give authorisation for off-grid systems + they issue an approval letter to confirm this. Original website wording merely stated that one must declare (register) system - the goal posts have changed, and yes they have been sending inspectors around to confirm systems are off-grid.