Is your system legal? Capetonians have till 28 Feb 2019 to register their systems

[ebrsa]

Thanks a lot @SilverNodashi for raising a very crucial factor relating to the Solis, that escaped us all. That seems to kill that solution which looked attractive except for the registration. I couldn't agree with you more @Chris Hobson. If @pilotfish develops a CO switch that could be controlled by a BMV or RPi running ICC, that would be the cheapest solution. @pilotfish will have me for an eager client should he be willing to sell such units. Or perhaps a suitable one would be avaialble from generator installers as @The Terrible Triplett has repeatedly suggested. Think I will wait for @pilotfish to complete his unit first. Like him I prefer to stay off-grid to avoid all the related complexities. Given the distance from Cape Town, where engineers who can certify grid-tied systems are to be found and the related costs, staying off-grid remains an attractive option.

Fortunately I have a 5Kva Chinese generator, purchased from Makro years ago when Eskom rolling blackouts were the order of the dday.A legal CO switch was also installed at the time.

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

You also need to keep in mind, with the Solis inverter, if Eskom fails during the day, you cannot use your solar panels.

If that question was asked, as I was waiting for it, I would have suggested that either have the array volts at 140v or 500v.
If 140v, unplug and connect back to MPPT. Solis is still blocking the feedback.
If 500v, have the combiner box configured so that one can take some of the array and reconnect it to existing MPPT, to stay in the <150v.

@ebrsa For me it is about what one has and the cost to sort it. You can go and spend R50k or you can spend R25k or R500 ... As I always tell myself, stand back, don't get caught up in the minor nitty gritty details like Eksom and battery charging - disconnect the Axpert and do it manually for as Chris pointed out, currently if anyone who has insufficient solar they use Eskom.

And if power failures is at night, cloudy day ... NO array will be of any use.

I'm one of a very select few who has never charged batts on anything but solar ... let me tell you that it takes battery management to the next level.

The bare bones basic facts are:
1) Off grid with it's nuances - cheap solution but not ideal for Cpt weather. As I said before: Been there Done that.
2) Grid tied with way less nuances - not that expensive either and with loads more benefit.

Watching this go backwards and forwards, I shake my head. Why not ask:
What are the inconvenient truths about double relays and switching delays? (I did post the issue - have you read it?)
If I go Solis, how would one handle XYW ... (only issue is the panels IF ESKOM FAILS for extended periods, I have made a suggestion ...)

Yet we are caught up in the minor nitty gritty like:
Eskom charging ... really! You have ICC, so manage it via ICC or unplug the Axpert till you want to charge.
Panels on Solis and power failures - we all know grid tied inverter switch off ... so move the panels back - it is not rocket science 

Ask the right questions. Stop "scare tactics" by using short posts when the bulk of the content has not been read.

Really guys, am I wasting my time typing it all out in detail, are you reading what I wrote, have you spent some time thinking about it?

 

EDIT: I am not pointing fingers or shouting at any one individual. I am speaking in a very strong voice to the group.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ebrsa said:

Given the distance from Cape Town, where engineers who can certify grid-tied systems are to be found and the related costs, staying off-grid remains an attractive option.

The Engineer said to me once, for I thought of you guys out there, that if there are a bunch of people in a area out of town, that he can all see in one day, it will help bring the travelling costs down.

2 hours ago, ebrsa said:

Like him I prefer to stay off-grid to avoid all the related complexities.

FWIW. My "research" over the last 10 years shows clearly that grid tied have 10 times less "related complexities" than anything else out there.

Pilotfish has a good case for off-grid, Cpt not.

But, it is your call Sir. Maybe after 7 years being off-grid, wife having been re-trained and all, it works for you.

Me, I have given up on being off-grid, "forced" to move grid tied - Thank You CoCT say I. ;-)

Edited September 17, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

14 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

Which is why I would take the Goodwe over the Solis. And then I don't need the Axpert anymore either. 

I do agree with this 100% bar that I would still go VICTRON. 

Only thing, IF I had an Axpert, I would have to sell it very quick before more people do it and the price bottoms out.

Alternatively I would make the Axpert a UPS, seeing it is already wired in, get a CoC for that and add a cheaper grid tied solution - Solis.

Solis + having the Axpert vs new Goodwe / Infini = big price difference.

[Chris Hobson]

1 minute ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Solis is still blocking the feedback.

In the event of an Axpert accidentally feeding back the Solis is not going to stop the feedback.

The Solis can act in two ways

• The grid falls away and the Solis goes into anti-islanding mode and shuts down. It has no influence over the Axpert. The Axpert in this hypothetical case is accidentally feeding back into the grid - there is no overvoltage having miraculously synched with the grid and the Axpert in a highly unlikely scenario (but possible and therefore since it does not have a physical interlock is not NRS compliant) continues to feed back. Solis can shout "Stop the grid is down" but the Axpert is not listening since it is not expecting to be feeding into the grid and so is not listening.
• The Solis has the panels on and the Axpert goes into fault mode and whilst charging from the grid - power supplied by the Solis. Now both the Axpert and Solis are trying to push back into the grid. The Solis has a grid limiter and the Axpert not. The more the Axpert pushes back the more the Solis limits its own production but in no way can it influence the Axpert's theoretical production and energy flows into the grid. 

These scenarios are highly improbable but theoretically possible and that is what NRS is all about. It's the "What if scenario".  What if the software switching fails? Well then we have this physical interlock as a fail safe. Axpert does not have it - some Victron don't have it - therefore no certification.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

some Victron don't have it - therefore no certification.

Therein the Ziehl requirement for Victron's to make them all compliant. Damn clever if you ask me.

Voltronic could do the same.

4 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

These scenarios are highly improbable but theoretically possible and that is what NRS is all about.

Good, that solves this then.

Made the proposal as all Axpert users currently ignore the regs in any event - and I would bet if power failures do return, seeing as Eskom has 10-20 days coal, that all of us would be like "Basta that ..." and connect panels wherever we can. Yes we will. 

6 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

Axpert in a highly unlikely scenario (but possible and therefore since it does not have a physical interlock is not NRS compliant)

Therein my point that one needs to get a CoC for the Axpert / DB board connection. It sort that out quite succinctly.

Every single sparky I spoke to knew of what to do in cases of a UPS / Generator DB board connections and the accompanying CoC.

Any Axpert user who does not have a CoC for their Axpert / DB board connection, nationally, is against national regulations.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ebrsa said:

Fortunately I have a 5Kva Chinese generator ...A legal CO switch was also installed at the time.

You know what ... connected the Axpert the same way, or behind the gennie, so that when you run the gennie once a month , use the power to charge the batteries?

[Chris Hobson]

10 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Any Axpert user who does not have a CoC for their Axpert / DB board connection, nationally, is against national regulations.

......  not quite .....Republic of Roodeberg says if insurance is happy we're happy. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

......  not quite .....Republic of Roodeberg says if insurance is happy we're happy. 

Not disputing a fellow Pressi, but I am sure you have that in writing from them, that if the house burns down due to say a electrical fault, that they will not quibble about a CoC or some such nonsense, being in the Republic of Roodeberg and all that.

I ask because having been on the "other side" in IT, seeing how claims work, when they start asking for papers before paying a claim, it can get quite hairy. They haul out these things called "Policy Wording", those packs of paper we tend throw away - unless we can read and understand legalize.

For insurance is a whole new level of discussion which will not take place here, as it may be construed as advice, and that is not allowed unless you meet the "regulations" to give such advice, which I do not have, therein me asking, not advising. (cwl)

[___]

42 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

In the event of an Axpert accidentally feeding back the Solis is not going to stop the feedback.

True, but it seems the authorities don't care as long as your source of the feedback isn't PV panels. Doing it that way gets the Axpert off the NRS097 hook. It might still be on the SANS hook... but that's between the guy writing the CoC and your insurance company it seems.

45 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

some Victron don't have it

That requires a bit of push-back :-) What NRS097-2-1 requires, among others, is:

1. A number of active/passive methods to detect a grid outage. You must at least have one active measure.

2. Two disconnection switches, one of which must be a physical switch (aka contactor) and must be suitably interlocking (ie so the inverter cannot energise the line unless the switch operates correctly). It has this in common with VDE AR N 4105 (Germany).

The Axpert has neither an active anti-islanding measure (not needed) nor a suitably interlocking changeover/disconnect.

The plain Multiplus (not the Multiplus-II or the MultiGrid) has only one switch, but it DOES have active anti-islanding measures and for that reason simply adding the Ziehl ticks the last box. It's a bit of a sledgehammer approach: You essentially double-up on the passive measures just to get an extra switch :-)

 

[Chris Hobson]

21 minutes ago, plonkster said:

It's a bit of a sledgehammer approach:

Half the cost of a Victron unit that does tick all the boxes. I'd rather buy the Victron and get all the bells and whistles.

[___]

Just now, Chris Hobson said:

Half the cost of a Victron unit that does tick all the boxes. I'd rather buy the Victron and get all the bells and whistles.

If you already have a Multiplus and you need to get it compliant, get a Ziehl anti-islanding relay. That costs less than a new inverter (which some will say isn't exactly hard ;-P ).

If you don't yet have a Victron inverter, then buy the Multiplus-II and save on the extra costs, as this one has it built-in.

If you need to go larger than 3kva, then for now the Ziehl remains the only option (though I believe larger MP-II models are on the way).

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

Half the cost of a Victron unit that does tick all the boxes. I'd rather buy the Victron and get all the bells and whistles.

Must say, going off-grid with Axpert, unless you are forced by regs as in JHB, is a step backwards.

On a farm off-grid is nirvana.

The costs to make a Axpert compliant as a UPS / DB board reshuffle and connection and then to grid tie it for the panels, with a Solis being the cheapest option, just makes ESS so much more sensible to manage and maintain batteries in a all in one solution. Victron costs are frowned upon, yet the huge tie-up in the batteries and panels are not even mentioned when looking at the prices. My guess is a Victron inverter may last 30 years.

Sell the Axpert and look at ESS from Victron whilst thinking of the battery bank investment and ROI on that with the maximized use of the panels grid tied to ones house. Yes, there are Goodwe's etc. but still, have a look at least:

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ess_quick_instalation_manual

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ess:ess_mode_2_and_3

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ess_quick_instalation_manual

To mitigate the prices, if that is still a bother and one wants Victron, speak up ... 

[___]

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

My guess is a Victron inverter may last 30 years.

That might be a bit of a stretch, but 15 is certainly possible.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, plonkster said:

That might be a bit of a stretch, but 15 is certainly possible.

Came for a Sparkie installing Victron in Cpt ... 

I'm betting on 15-20 years for controllers / inverter with the solar panels 15-20 years and battery bank lasting +-8 years ... carefully used.

Temp is the problem I don't have - my window mounted system. 

[ebrsa]

@The Terrible Triplett let me assure you that I read all posts by you and others. In fact yesterday I spent a lot of time to read this thread form the first to the last post and now to read the new posts since this morning around 9:00. How much I remember at this time is quite another matter. Ask your 79 year old, younger than me, father about memory information retention.

What I have to consider is:

1. My Axperts, as connected now, are non-compliant as I have lately learned from this forum and Swartland's requirements.

2. I have 8Kw output capacity, 450AH battery capacity and 2.3Kw solar array.

3. What is the cheapest way to get this whole lot legal and have a valid CoC. It need not be grid-tied for now just as long as I can easily switch to grid from the Axperts being used as an off-grid UPS with solar array connected. That will give me time to consider all options and hopefully arrive at the best solution for my requirements.

4. If I split the DB into 2 DB's with the Axperts powering most of the house in a stand-alone configuration and with the kitchen connected to the grid It would probably work well. The local electrician, who did the electrical installation, wired all plugs in the kitchen, bar the stove oven, which is electric, to one breaker with the result that one cannot switch on all appliances at the same time or the breaker trips. Just one small line-interactive UPS of say 500Kva will sort out delay in switch over of the load on the off-grid circuits for the TV etc if I have a @pilotfish type switch to switch to grid when the batteries reach say 80 % SOC. I already have a 1Kva one for my computers.

5. In the configuration above and with 8Kw output, nothing will overload on the off-grid part normally, even if a heater in a guest bedroom turns on. Our main bedroom has a small aircon to heat up the room that uses about 1,5Kw. So if the Axperts are replaced with a good quality grid-tied inverter, maybe even a Victron, I would not want to go below 4Kw or I will have my own in house Eskom type blackouts. The 8Kw Axperts powers the whole house at present including the geyser of 2Kw, which switches on rarely, as I have an evacuated tube solar heater. Total power, solar and grid, so far for the year for the geyser is at 121Kwh as per the separate Owl meter measuring consumption.

You seem to have modified you system several times during the years that you have used renewable, I have been going for 2 years. Had I known that the Axperts were non-compliant, I would not have installed them. So it is a case of once bitten twice shy and I want to be dead certain that all is well before forking out more that small change. I also have to consider my age as at some stage, in I hope not the near future, I may have to sell this house and move to something with some care facilities. It is therefor important that whatever I end up with will not require any knowledge of the system that is remotely complex and requiring some attention as that will surely discourage potential buyers.

So maybe I should ask if there are any buyers out there who desperately needs 2 x 5Kva/4Kw Axperts MKS (Proline branded) with Aussie 73.00 firmware at a price I cannot refuse. I assume they are Axperts since every new version of the Aussie firmware was loaded flawlessly.

[Chris Hobson]

39 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

What is the cheapest way to get this whole lot legal and have a valid CoC.

In your case with 450 Ah of batteries I would add some more panels 2-3kW and go off-grid. You have enough battery storage to probably comfortably go through the night and with a little extra PV you become you own energy boss.  COC and a manual change over switch in case you need the grid again. Go over to a prepaid meter if you not on one already and you and your municipality are the best of buddies. (That might be taking it a bit far but you get my idea).

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

Ask your 79 year old, younger than me, father about memory information retention.

Nothing wrong with your memory! 

19 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

... assure you that I read all posts by you and others.

Thank you. The effort is then worth it!

41 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

If I split the DB into 2 DB's

THAT is where I ran head-on into a brick wall. The cost for me turned at R5-6k JUST for the DB board labour, to split it.

Another cost that falls away wit the Solis, replaced by a lower cost for the Engineer sign-off as you are on the R2.5k ex VAT bracket.

 

19 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

Had I known that the Axperts were non-compliant, I would not have installed them.

We, I, knew this for a while now, as I have said before, since 2008 the regulations came out for solar in Cpt. 2012 is was set. The inverter list has been around for quite a while now. Frequently over the years I have mentioned here legalities with grid and regs.

Thing is the Axpert was sold at good prices, people bought them out of desperation and software was written to tweak them even better. So the titbits was left aside. That all changed when Cpt said enough ... here is the deadline. Suddenly the price consideration came back a bit everyone, and then I found that Jhb, Dbn ... all have similar regs already in place.

That is when the penny dropped here on the forum, but Cpt has had it coming for more than 8 years now.

24 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

You seem to have modified you system several times during the years that you have used renewable,

Nope, been set in stone since I chose built the Interlock, first for solar in the world, in 2012. My inverter was bought to be off-grid, as the regs then, as now, although the same, yet there was no deadline to register off-grid. Being off-grid by choice due to regulations back then. By forcing me to register now, forced my hand to go even lower on consumption = grid tied as off-grid does not save you are much as grid tied in my opinion.

29 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

... are any buyers out there who desperately needs 2 x 5Kva/4Kw Axperts MKS ...

Pop them on Gumtree. If the price is right, the can go fast.

 

30 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

I may have to sell this house ...

That changes everything!

The new buyer of the home has to re-register as the new owner of the solar system, and you may not want that to complicate the sale. Having the Axpert as a non-fixture makes it easier if he/she does not want it. Take me, if I was to buy, I would not want the Axpert. So we would haggle about the price or you will have to remove it, with the panels. Others may differ, but then I will counter and say: A single woman is buying ... she is not interested. 

Also to note. You get DB mounted change overs, where you bush the button. Two Sarkies proposed that to me for my setup.
You also get DB mounted relays, 40ms changeover. I can give you the guys names if you want to call them and ask.

Keep it simple, remove-able, in case the buyer does not want it.

And if the buyers want it, Goodwe, Victron brands that have no question ... and up the house price accordingly.

[___]

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

THAT is where I ran head-on into a brick wall. The cost for me turned at R5-6k JUST for the DB board labour, to split it.

So you spent about the same as I did for the same job :-) What can I say...

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

knew this for a while now

I won't say I knew. I always thought the Axpert would simply slip through the "solar powered UPS" hole. Didn't know about the transfer switch.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, plonkster said:

So you spent about the same as I did for the same job :-) What can I say...

O nooo, I have a separate surface mounted DB board, after a long chat today, Thursday is the day. We figured, thanks for the help, the T&C's out.

R1100 is the target. :-) 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, plonkster said:

I won't say I knew

When I first ever saw a Axpert with a controller, I started to ask around. Consensus back then was with panels and not being on the list, not going to happen. 

So my drinking buddy bought one of the 1st ones with a MPPT, insisting it will be put on the list, just watch, he said.

FWIW ... today he insists the latest list will be retracted once CoCT realises their mistake, just watch, he said.

So whilst he is watching ... I'm drinking his dop. :-)

[pilotfish]

32 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

today he insists the latest list will be retracted once CoCT realises their mistake,

The committees that make these decisions are loaded with people representing special interests, Voltronic is unlikely to be represented and thus has zero chance of ever making it onto the approved list.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, pilotfish said:

The committees that make these decisions are loaded with people representing special interests, Voltronic is unlikely to be represented and thus has zero chance of ever making it onto the approved list.

I'm happy ... I'm getting free branna's and Coke whilst he debates the morals of the it all. 

[___]

45 minutes ago, pilotfish said:

The committees that make these decisions are loaded with people representing special interests, Voltronic is unlikely to be represented and thus has zero chance of ever making it onto the approved list.

This is actually fairly common! The European makers are used to jumping through hoops in other countries because some local manufacturer is on the committee and ensures that they have that bit of an edge. The odd thing about SA is that the people who are on the committee are from Microcare and MLT... and neither of them have an inverter on the list.

Edit: I should perhaps add that at least for the blue kit, there is no person on the committee. It's just that the manufacturer has invested in a testing environment and kit to get there a bit faster for all the various markets... and even then there was almost a delay because a new low EMC requirement that got dropped later. In short... they throw lots of money at it.

Edited September 17, 2018 by plonkster

[weber]

Is a Capetown-approved standalone PV system, as shown in the following brochure, allowed to have a power inlet so it can be charged from a petrol generator?

https://www.westerncape.gov.za/energy-security-game-changer/files/atoms/files/Energy-PV-Brochure.pdf