Is your system legal? Capetonians have till 28 Feb 2019 to register their systems

[ebrsa]

Thanks again @weber for your information about your CO switch. I will see what I can find locally. @plonkster I for one do appreciate you views on the way that people act regarding solar. @The Terrible Triplett may well be spot on as far as City of Cape Town is concerned. However since I live in Swartland municipality, the regulations of C of CT is of interest only. I did enquire about the Axpert before purchasing my first 3Kva one which @Mike installed for me. I asked and he told me that he enquired from the municipality about installing his first system and they said thanks we have taken note. Yesterday I asked another local resident whether he had to fill in and register his truly grid tied system and was told the same. And of course the municipality was absolutely aware of his installation because he has no batteries and therefor a feed-in meter and municipal account crediting him with whatever he feeds in. So I did not just jump in at the deep end. The fact is that the Axperts are being used quite widely. Even @Manie and the other ICC developer who has been out of the picture for ages, originally had Axperts and at the time not a soul had anything untoward to say as I recall. Of late we have this barrage of I told you so.

I believe my best option at this stage is simply to run my Axperts with the grid input disconnected and only use solar charging like @pilotfish who has even more compelling reasons to do so given the downright stupid tariffs and charges in Johannesburg. What really gets my gall is that the Axpert is approved in Australia and probably other first world countries but not in this piece of real estate called South Africa. Why is that. Are the makers of laws and regulations here all of a sudden just that much smarter than everyone else on earth of just more arrogant. So I look forward to see what @pilotfish comes up with as a CO switch.

[weber]

Ebrsa, here is how our changeover contactors are wired. But you won't be allowed to do this with the Axpert, as explained by plonkster here:

https://powerforum.co.za/topic/2109-is-your-system-legal-capetonians-have-till-28-feb-2019-to-register-their-systems/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-37792

Edited September 20, 2018 by weber

[weber]

Here's my suggestion for what I hope is a legal way of wiring an Axpert in South Africa without requiring an engineer's report, only an electrician's certificate.

If the battery goes flat or you need to do maintenance on the Axpert, you can just move the lead from the Axpert outlet to the grid outlet. No problem.

Now some of you are bound to think, "What's to stop me running a lead from the grid outlet to the Axpert's generator inlet?". The answer is, "Fear of getting caught", because it would be illegal.

Edited September 20, 2018 by weber

[Coulomb]

9 hours ago, ebrsa said:

I believe my best option at this stage is simply to run my Axperts with the grid input disconnected and only use solar charging...

In your case, with two paralleled machines, that's probably the case.

But I'd point something I probably forgot to mention earlier. The AC input connection to the grid has a second purpose, in addition to allowing grid charging. It's allowing the Axpert to switch to "line mode" on overloads. This happens at my home perhaps once a day on average. We're all pretty conscious of loads here, and try to prevent "burning coal unnecessarily", but it's nice to know that if you forget or the fridge and freezer come on together at just the wrong moment, there is no loss of power, just a clean transition to grid power for 2 minutes or so. The grid rarely fails here, so I don't know what would happen if I didn't have the grid as backup. My guess is that the Axpert would reluctantly allow larger loads for longer on battery mode, but would eventually simply switch off the loads when the battery voltage reached a low enough level. That might be fine, but it has the possibility of being a little harder on the battery.

So @ebrsa, it would presumably be very rare for you to switch over to line mode due to a temporary overload. But for others like myself with just the single 4 kW machine, having the AC input connected to the grid, even if there are frequent outages, has its value.

I do hope you figure out a reasonable way to keep running your Axperts legally, and preferably without too much built-in functionality unused. It would be a great shame if South Africa, which was presumably a very nice market for Voltronic Power, suddenly had to abandon nearly all their Axperts (leaving only the true off-grid installations).

[ebrsa]

Thanks a great deal for your kind help and suggestions  @weber and @Coulomb, They are deeply appreciated. I am also grateful for help from all other forum members who tried to help irrespective of the odd disparaging remarks. That is just human nature and I have lived long enough to have some considerable experience of it. I am not giving up on this matter until I have exhausted all possibilities. If standby generator installers manage to legally switch loads between grid and generator, the solutions do exist as @The Terrible Triplett for instance has advised. @Coulomb the bypass issue does not bother me much. I will simply move the 8Kw overload breaker to the off-grid loads connected to the Axperts. With the whole house connected to the Axperts, that switch has only tripped twice this year, even though I have not bothered to educate my wife on planned use of available capacity as it would be forgotten and overloads may occasionally happen. That would be almost never with the off-grid load I am planning to configure.

It seems that Solis has grid-tied inverters with battery charging and connection of suitable output capacity already available as shown on their website. They are not available here yet. It may be an option to see what they turn out to be when available here. I just passionately hate the registration process and repeat thereof if I should at some time, when I am old and decrepit,  decide to sell this house.

[Guest]

I would connect it so that based on a set SOC of the BMV, that the entire load the Axpert powers, moves back to Eskom, automatically.
If I know there is enough batteries / panels, would make the SOC to switch to grid, say 80%. And back to Axpert at 82%.
Idea is that the min SOC never gets reached, batts and panels must power, so it is just in case.

Would use relays that are DB board mounted.
And would use a DB mounted changeover - that can be triggered by the BMV's relay.

Ideally, if possible and legal, have the above complexities outside the main DB, in the 2nd DB the Axpert feeds - if possible.

Idea is that if one does move and the Axpert must go, just reconnect 2 wires back to main DB, and it is all back as before, with the 2nd DB still powering those loads.

 

[ebrsa]

Thanks @The Terrible Triplett. That is what I have in mind, separate DB board and all. I am thinking of using the RPi to do the switching as ICC-Pi now have three switches, controlling pins on the GPIO, for setting up switching based on a time schedule or SOC or grid availability, all with manual override. It is rather convenient to do all the setting from my first floor office with the inverters and RPi in the garage on the ground floor. The only problem now is to find an approved changeover relay for switching between the Axpert output and grid.

I have been running on a time schedule mostly for the past two years to avoid charging from grid at night as far as possible and it works very well. I adjust the schedule between seasons and try not to discharge below 80% SOC, with batteries at 100% every day. Solar charging gets the batteries to at least 95% and the grid tops it up in the early evening.

This setup is attractive to me since no registration is required for stand-alone which gives me time to see what comes along, perhaps the Solis with batteries which appears to already have such units for up to 10Kw and then some of even higher capacity. Some time or another they will cross the ocean.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, ebrsa said:

I am thinking of using the RPi to do the switching
The only problem now is to find an approved changeover relay for switching between the Axpert output and grid.

I steered clear of RPi's for the sole reason that a BMV's relay is by far more reliable and less prone to failure.

Speak to Sparkies, or ask them where to go for the changeover, one that you can remotely switch with the RPi.

Unless you want me to find you one?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, ebrsa said:

This setup is attractive to me since no registration is required for stand-alone which gives me time to see what comes along, perhaps the Solis with batteries which appears to already have such units for up to 10Kw and then some of even higher capacity. 

You logic here is sound.

Segensolar said they are bringing in the Solis inverters with the battery option early 2019. When they also appear on "The List", that would be a good sign.

Now that my Multigrid is grid connected, man it is a good feeling!

[Chris Hobson]

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Now that my Multigrid is grid connected, man it is a good feeling!

Photos?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Chris Hobson said:

Photos?

Just Sparkie connected - still in window for air see. :-)
Will never even come CLOSE to some of your installs - ever.

AC side: Been told what to do to make it sign-off-able. I accept and agree to that.
DC side : "Conversation" is going to involve elbow's and knees ... a gun ... re. Brad Harrison connectors in trunking. 

Show me the regs, say I, as it is designed to be unplug and plug-able, for nincompoops like ME!

[ebrsa]

@The Terrible Triplett thanks a lot for the offer to find a remote controlled CO switch. I have emailed Marius Fourie, the engineer who posted the Youtube video, to hear his views on the subject. I hope to find time and go discuss the whole matter of SSEG with our municipal Director of Electrical Engineering next week if he is available at some stage. 

I will study the manual of my BMV700 to become more au fait with its capabilities and intricacies as soon as I find time. Don't ever get involved in a ratepayers association, in no time it becomes a fulltime job which I am going to give up at the end of this year after 10 years and just before my wife decides to divorce me. The RPi and ICC-Pi has been working very well for me and has hung up so rarely as to be insignificant. I just find it very conveniennt to make changes from my office rather than go gown the stairs to the garage where the BMV is. 

I hope that I will get some usefull information from the sources mentioned so that my friend and I can legalize our SSEG installations and perhaps also assist at least one other Axpert owner in the village that I am aware of.

[___]

20 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Would use relays that are DB board mounted.

What I would probably do... depending on cost and all.

Get two contactors, with auxiliary contacts (and maybe also the mechanical interlock). Like this video that was already posted. He has the diagrams up on how to use a DPDT switch/relay to change the priority of the sources.

Then use the BMV to switch the DPDT relay. Upside here is you can use a low voltage for this, eg 12V between your BMV and the DPDT relay, and then 230VAC from there to the two contactors (since 230V coil contactors are generally easier to find and cheaper too).

(Yes I know we've agreed that the BMV relay can take 230V, even if the spec sheet says 60V, which is a DC rating, but for little extra money you can make this thing smart... okay?).

So parts list would be:

2 x double-pole contactors (sometimes 3-phase 3-pole units are cheaper or easier to find) with the NC auxiliary contact.

1 x DPDT 12V relay.

1 x 12V PSU.

Remember to wire the NC side of the DPDT to solar priority, so that if the 12V PSU goes out with the grid it drops into solar priority.

The BMV's relay can be inverted, so you have everything you need, but most likely you'd want to close the BMV relay on Low SOC, which in turn switches the DPDT relay, which throws the priority over to grid. QED.

[SilverNodashi]

4 minutes ago, plonkster said:

What I would probably do... depending on cost and all.

Get two contactors, with auxiliary contacts (and maybe also the mechanical interlock). Like this video that was already posted. He has the diagrams up on how to use a DPDT switch/relay to change the priority of the sources.

Then use the BMV to switch the DPDT relay. Upside here is you can use a low voltage for this, eg 12V between your BMV and the DPDT relay, and then 230VAC from there to the two contactors (since 230V coil contactors are generally easier to find and cheaper too).

(Yes I know we've agreed that the BMV relay can take 230V, even if the spec sheet says 60V, which is a DC rating, but for little extra money you can make this thing smart... okay?).

So parts list would be:

2 x double-pole contactors (sometimes 3-phase 3-pole units are cheaper or easier to find) with the NC auxiliary contact.

1 x DPDT 12V relay.

1 x 12V PSU.

Remember to wire the NC side of the DPDT to solar priority, so that if the 12V PSU goes out with the grid it drops into solar priority.

The BMV's relay can be inverted, so you have everything you need, but most likely you'd want to close the BMV relay on Low SOC, which in turn switches the DPDT relay, which throws the priority over to grid. QED.

Just a word of caution on this, for the DIY'ers. Even if the relay can handle 2230V, it will probably burn shut under load. With relays, always get one that's quite a bit beefier than what you expect to run on it. i.e. if you want to run a 10A load, get a 20A version. "startup spikes" can often go above the normal power rating of many appliances, and as it be, an appliance might just decide to kick-in, while the whole circuit is under load, and for some odd reason the circuit has to quickly shut down. The last thing you want is a relay that burnt shut cause it was under-rated. 

Chances are you'll (just) burn our the relay, worst-case scenario it could cause a serious fire. 

[___]

19 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

always get one that's quite a bit beefier

63A contactors can be quite costly, but 25A ones are quite affordable, in my experience. If you only have a part of your house on inverter backup, that makes a good alternative.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, plonkster said:

(..., but for little extra money you can make this thing smart... okay?).

I support this idea 100%!!!

Do not go my route, unless you copy exactly what I had.

Anything else and you are at risk ito BMV and that smoke matter.

[ebrsa]

Thanks for the suggestions @plonkster. I received a reply from Marius Fourie regarding the Axpert but have asked his permission before posting it on the forum. Unfortunately my Telkom ADSL is dead again for the second day in a row and now resetting the port at the DSLAM did not work. I am connecting via our CCTV Ubiquiti wireless network to a friend's ADSL router with my tablet on which I am typing this post. As soon as my computer is connected the same way, I will be able to check my email. Also I am waiting to see what @pilotfish developes and since he said earlier that he would do his own CoC, he must be qualified to design something that is compliant.

It has been an interesting discussion thus far with several workable if not ideable solutions for using Axperts in conjunction with grid power. So I for one will perservere for a first choice solution untill all possible options have been exhausted.

[Guest]

On 2018/09/22 at 9:14 AM, ebrsa said:

... thus far with several workable if not ideable solutions ...

A sparkie I know quotes R2k for CoC, parts are excluded, and assuming DB passes all the tests.

[Guest]

Have had a thought or two to ask a dealer, pay for it, but then, not all dealers are as jacked as I want them to be. 

The more I read the more I see the parts I need to focus on, so slowly but surely, as I knew would happen, the newbie ideas are not so new anymore.

Two things are becoming quite clear: 3000VA inverter ...
- Need the bank to match - mmmm.
- Need the panels to match - no problem with this!
- Have to sue some of the batteries - this is ok, but dang bro's, limit the watts allowed to be drawn at a time. ;-)
I don't do things the easy way, push the envelope first, with what you have, then add.

 

So I tried the option to keep the batteries fully charged, good idea for power failures ... but not good if you want to use all the power the panels can give. Ideal would have been to keep batts charged, with all power going into the house. But this is a hybrid system, so not the same as a grid tied inverter with no batteries, as the controllers are connected direct to the batteries.

Reverted back to a SOC of 90%, better draw from the array but it draws a lot from the batteries for short periods and being a small bank, they are getting some exercise. There was an option to limit the watts drawn from the batteries, Matthijs referred to it in a YouTube video, ignored when there is a AC-in failure, but it has been removed. Wonder why.

Next step is to get in via the backdoor, being half a techie I am (and not a Linux fan), to start setting one or things there ... just as you @plonkster , saw coming. :-)

Am of two minds to document it all here, from the inverter all the way to the AC output, the screens one must focus on for ESS, then send that to Victron explaining why it is a good idea to simplify it all for newbies, as ESS is a whole new game that Victron has entered into. I'm in a house, not a yacht. :-)

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Guest

[___]

52 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Am of two minds to document it all here

You have to remember there is already somewhat of a proliferation of places where things are discussed and documented. The best place to document things is in fact on the Victron live site. Like my friend Guy has done here. But then there is also the disqus comments below many of these things, and then there is the venus development list, and there's the official support channel via your reseller that ends up with level3 support. So I hope you understand my reticence in having yet another place full of documentation :-) It's a nice idea... but we've had that idea already :-)

[Chris Hobson]

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Reverted back to a SOC of 90%, better draw from the array but it draws a lot from the batteries for short periods and being a small bank, they are getting some exercise. There was an option to limit the watts drawn from the batteries, Matthijs referred to it in a YouTube video, ignored when there is a AC-in failure, but it has been removed. Wonder why. 

 

I think that functionality is still part of ESS.

[___]

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

limit the watts drawn from the batteries

There is such an option already, but this option limits the inverter power rather than the battery portion. I understand that one feature people want is to add the PV power into this, eg if the limit is set to 500W, but there is also 500W incoming PV power, then the inverter limit should be 1000W.

Now in version 2.06 this was tried in Venus. Why was it dropped? Caused too many questions. Remember how I told you these inverters have no current sensor on the DC side? It is all estimated from the AC side. Now imagine what happens when someone sets the max discharge value (taking PV into account) to zero, and he doesn't get an actual zero? He wants to know why... he is upset that his battery bank is discharging when it should not :-)

It's actually incredibly difficult to keep people happy. Before you change something, you had better be sure you thought of everything.

At the moment I'm using cron jobs to set a power level at various times during the day. I showed @PaulF007 how to do it too. Trouble is... if you're not a unix guy who thinks built-in scheduling in the OS is awesome, or if you have somewhat of a bent towards the windows way of doing things... there is no point in me even telling you about this

Edited September 23, 2018 by plonkster

[PaulF007]

3 hours ago, plonkster said:

Now imagine what happens when someone sets the max discharge value (taking PV into account) to zero, and he doesn't get an actual zero? He wants to know why... he is upset that his battery bank is discharging when it should not :-)

I remember that you mentioned this before and I think the solution would be much simpler that binning the feature all together , just add a minimum allowable value. There is a lot of systems that I have come across that will have a minimum value that you can not set below and if I you ask why it will say RTFM ...  I also think that we are sometimes over "sensitive" to critique. It is like the gay that will play the piano at the kerk and then one of the tannies complains that he was too slow or too fast and then he has to stop the whole thing all together.  ...

 

3 hours ago, plonkster said:

if you're not a unix guy who thinks built-in scheduling in the OS is awesome, or if you have somewhat of a bent towards the windows way of doing things... there is no point in me even telling you about this 

One thing that I admired about the Victron kit as that they have opened up thier platform for public participation and by doing that they and receive their resources / ideas / code for free and have beta testers. Now I do remember a good friend once telling me that the biggest problem with software development is support but you now also have beta testers that  know what they are letting them selves into , testing .So why not look into adding some of these options into a beta test and see what the response is. From my point of view Victron is only now getting into the public solar world and there could still be plenty possibilities that could be tapped into. 

[DDD]

14 hours ago, plonkster said:

There is such an option already, but this option limits the inverter power rather than the battery portion. I understand that one feature people want is to add the PV power into this, eg if the limit is set to 500W, but there is also 500W incoming PV power, then the inverter limit should be 1000W.

Now in version 2.06 this was tried in Venus. Why was it dropped? Caused too many questions. Remember how I told you these inverters have no current sensor on the DC side? It is all estimated from the AC side. Now imagine what happens when someone sets the max discharge value (taking PV into account) to zero, and he doesn't get an actual zero? He wants to know why... he is upset that his battery bank is discharging when it should not :-)

It's actually incredibly difficult to keep people happy. Before you change something, you had better be sure you thought of everything.

At the moment I'm using cron jobs to set a power level at various times during the day. I showed @PaulF007 how to do it too. Trouble is... if you're not a unix guy who thinks built-in scheduling in the OS is awesome, or if you have somewhat of a bent towards the windows way of doing things... there is no point in me even telling you about this

Reading this (missing DC current sensors) I understand why the extra equipment is needed. The very first software I did was to understand the batt/usage/harvest relations. With out this you have no idea what is happening. Then if your system does not do this you have to have the correct lego brigs. I took it for granted that these fancy systems has it built in. After-all they are very expensive and not fancy. Got the picture. Tnx  Got the picture completely. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Erastus

[DDD]

I saw a draft document on solar systems. And the suggested "new law".  If the law is going to be accepted which I am sure it will be in the future then in My OPINION. the majority of system will be rejected on this forum.  When I looked at the installations do think about it in a different "set-up".

In the industry:

1. Batteries without supervision must be charged in a well ventilated room with no electrical active instrumentation nearby. The light switch should be out side the room.  Simple charging == gas == RUST== explosions.
2. Each bank must have a "fuse/breaker" close to the bank in the live cable not exceeding 20% of the load IE 100 amp = 120 fuse PER BANK
3. An isolator close by to disconnect a bank from the bus bars and also for emergency ...  ( An isolator is a mechanical switching device that, in the open position, allows for isolation of the input and output of a device. An isolator differs from a switch in that it is intended to be opened when the circuit is not carrying current. )

Some points to think about. If you are doing this you might not have insurance Occupational and Safety act ....

Ask me when they threw the book at me they tried all funnies. Therefore my batteries is in a place I do not want it to be.

But I am pretty sure this is coming in the future. I had the draft version send for circulation somewhere.

An important point also to remember is that a DC system above 100V is considered as "Low Voltage" not "Extra Low Voltage". Low voltage has the same "laws" as 220V.

An PV array must have a emergency "switch/isolator"  close to the array and have a breaker/fuse to  not more than 20% the "stings" ratings.

Something to bear in mind.

Have a lovely holiday IN SA.