@plonkster  not having studied the regulations, I would not know whether the Axpert complies with SANS10142-1. But considering that Marius is appropriately qualified, is also a consultant on solar energy and has an Axpert installed himself, it is in my humble opinion safe to assume that he has taken all applicable regulations into consideration. In his last email to me he did say "lets see if anyone wishes to argue" so perhaps I should enquire about the question you raised.

 

1 hour ago, ebrsa said:

In his last email to me he did say "lets see if anyone wishes to argue" so perhaps I should enquire about the question you raised.

Good idea. More questions, the better and more thought through the answer is.

It is always good to question appropriately qualified people in-depth when your butt is on the line, and theirs not.

Fact 1: Voltronic said Axperts are off-grid inverters.
Fact 2: "The Engineer" and some Sparkies that knew Axperts I spoke to, saw Axperts as UPS'es.

As a UPS it needs a CoC for the DB board connection, which translates to off-grid, as per Voltronic.

 

Edited September 28, 20187 yr by Guest

4 hours ago, ebrsa said:

not having studied the regulations

You see, that's my problem too. I'm not about to spend R900 to buy the document if it is not my day trade. I have to rely on others. From what little I could gather the SANS regulations for a UPS connected into an installation to supply part of the load (ie into the DB) is rather more stringent than for the one under the table with a kettle cord attached to it. I've seen the changeover switch in the Multi. I've seen the feedback mechanism it uses. I know it complies. I know the one in the Axpert isn't as good as the one in the Multi. You need someone who is experienced on the subject of UPS design to evaluate it.

But... truth be told... if it was me, I wouldn't care, all I want is an engineer willing to put his name to it so I can be legal :-)

4 minutes ago, plonkster said:

But... truth be told... if it was me, I wouldn't care, all I want is an engineer willing to put his name to it so I can be legal :-)

Ja, I used to do the same till I realized that if I do that, and it was incorrect (or the guy disappears), I'm still stuck with the regs and a additional bill to rectify the first problem, especially if I want to sell the house. So now I get more than one opinion, and still the opinions differ. (faceplam).

 

6 minutes ago, plonkster said:

SANS regulations for a UPS connected into an installation to supply part of the load (ie into the DB)

Yes it is but if you go to the right company, it is easy as pie, falling off a horse, literally a fixed cost as the parts are cheap and the labour too, as they know exactly what to do.

Blows my mind that people don't just go to UPS companies and ask for quotes. CoC is required, now or later if you want to sell the house with a UPS.

Also picking up stompies that slowly but surely, more and more stringent regulations are emerging around panels, even to get a CoC for their installation, has been dropped in passing in my lap.

Does not matter what the engineers say on this matter, as they are not involved as it is off-grid / UPS installation. The guy giving the CoC, he is the one that must speak up.

Lowest price excl parts or any other work required on DB, to connect a Axpert with a CoC: R2k ex VAT.

@plonkster and @The Terrible Triplett thanks for your input. In his Youtube video Marius did state that the Axpert is sold and advertised by Voltronic as an off-grid unit. I don't believe he would say there is no problem in connecting the input to the grid or the mains feed at your DB board if he was not sure of the facts given his position as a consultant.  One accepts that a CoC is required for insurance and if one is to sell the house. I will, as soon as I find time and can get an appointment, go and discuss the whole matter of renewable energy and grid connections with our municipal Director of Electrical Engineering Services. Of course in the worst case there is still the option of an automated CO contactor similar to those used by backup generator installers as @The Terrible Triplett has recommended some time ago, or the one that @pilotfish is having a go at.

Some more info from a hardware guy here in the Netherlands. The Axpert is illegal here too. Also, the new mp-II has a much smaller relay than previous models, but it has two of them back to back and they have the proper gap. 

Was hoping to see more comments on this thread with what is happening on the ground with Capetonians people getting systems certified by the city before the amnesty deadline.

What is the general time frame from Step 1 to step 3? (ie. submitting the form, then being allowed to start installing)

http://www.capetown.gov.za/City-Connect/Apply/Municipal-services/Electricity/apply-for-authorisation-for-grid-tied-sseg

Surely there is a raft of ECSA compliant Pr.Eng's signing off on installed systems that are now going 'legal'?

I'm in the middle of a DIY residential installation (grid tie, no battery, no reverse feed), home owner was quite happy to go cowboy and ignore the city and their regulations, but it really does seem worthwhile. Panels are on the roof, just haven't connected anything yet. It seems to me the simplest option currently is to do the installation, get the CoC and Pr.Eng sign off, and then register under the amnesty.

Once Feb 2019 passes you have to do it by the book.

 

I have to say, sometimes journalists can choose the wrong combination of words and just make things worse. Now you need to register each and every solar panel on your roof, not just your system.

 

https://www.businessinsider.co.za/cape-town-fines-residents-r6000-if-they-fail-to-register-their-solar-panel-2018-11

and

https://www.businessinsider.co.za/draft-rules-require-solar-pv-backup-generators-to-be-registered-2018-5

Reading between the lines, how are they going to fine every shack in the squatter camps who got free solar panels through community project? There's no way those can be legal. And by this definition, if you have one of those R800 - 10W solar powered outside lights that you buy from builders or other hardware stores, will you also be fined since it can't be registered under any regulations?

 

 

11 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

Reading between the lines, how are they going to fine every shack in the squatter camps who got free solar panels through community project? There's no way those can be legal. And by this definition, if you have one of those R800 - 10W solar powered outside lights that you buy from builders or other hardware stores, will you also be fined since it can't be registered under any regulations?

I assume that the city has at least some people with brains who knows that a single 100W panel on the roof is likely for something small (alarm system or geyser circulation pump), but a sheet of 12 large 300W panels are probably not... :-)

If you  have a large amount up, they want you to register it so that they know what you're doing.

29 minutes ago, plonkster said:

I assume that the city has at least some people with brains who knows that a single 100W panel on the roof is likely for something small (alarm system or geyser circulation pump), but a sheet of 12 large 300W panels are probably not... 🙂

If you  have a large amount up, they want you to register it so that they know what you're doing.

I agree with you, but that's why I say journalists can just make things worse. Let's just hope they employ qualified engineers to run this whole project and not leave it to people uneducated in this very specialized field. 

 

A friend mentioned on Saturday his dilemma with his insurance when he had to claim his stolen gaming laptop. They replaced it with a plain Core i7 laptop with the same amount of RAM and same screen size. They simply couldn't understand that a gaming laptop could be worth R50k and they can have different model chips, RAM and GPU's in. Somehow I still see that this will turn into a nightmare for many installations out there. 

1 hour ago, SilverNodashi said:

insurance

This green and purple insurance company saying they'll give you money if they can't better your premium... I don't even want to know how many times they "better" a premium with a not-apples-for-apples  alternative. Not because I think they are deliberately deceiving people, but because making a proper comparison is quite hard. For example, I have a deal that includes several million cover for 3rd party (because I live in Somerset West... odds of actually crashing into an expensive Italian sports car is high) and excess waiver on both vehicles. Just these two items alone completely upsets the quoting systems of competitors... who often cannot beat the price unless they mess with those two items :-)

https://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/news/outrage-as-cape-town-residents-face-fines-over-unregistered-solar-panels-18279389?fbclid=IwAR3Fk1vjZMEj6jWe_XqG7-QOh5c11UKtjF0l6i8gRQrSbLtrGeNTm4DjqhI

If its all about safety, why then does the application ask you your utility consumption figures, hmmm...😏

 

-G-

48 minutes ago, gallderhen said:

why then does the application ask you your utility consumption figures

My guess would be planning. Whatever you fill in here has no bearing on whether it gets approved or not, it's simply a convenient time to harvest some extra information about what people are doing.

Or... maybe they are doing something evil. That would be the other option :-)

1 hour ago, plonkster said:

My guess would be planning. Whatever you fill in here has no bearing on whether it gets approved or not, it's simply a convenient time to harvest some extra information about what people are doing.

Or... maybe they are doing something evil. That would be the other option 🙂

they're doing something evil

10 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

they're doing something evil

Yeah, I'm getting the same vibe from this registration process.

Also, in the steps for a grid-tied system, they mention: "Step 5: The City will contact you to arrange an appointment to sign the Supplemental Contract for Embedded Generation."

Anyone have an idea what this Supplemental Contract for Embedded Generation document looks like?

 

-G-

I have a feeling that risking a R6000 fine might be worth doing until  more is known about the future.

There probably be a few years of legal challenges.

One could always register their "brand new" system afterwards presumably, if this registration is benign.

It could be that risking the fine is cheaper than the alternative, because rest-assured this is about making money.

 

Edited November 28, 20187 yr by phil.g00

1 hour ago, phil.g00 said:

I have a feeling that risking a R6000 fine might be worth doing until  more is known about the future.

There probably be a few years of legal challenges.

One could always register their "brand new" system afterwards presumably, if this registration is benign.

It could be that risking the fine is cheaper than the alternative, because rest-assured this is about making money.

 

I suspect that even though they fine you, they will force you to become compliant, or remove it all. Or be fined again. 

 

Same with cars, just cause you got a fine for worn tires doesn't mean you can keep driving with worn tires. 

Sho this is going to make for a complicated few months.

As a solar installer, we have countless systems, and many of them are not on the 'approved inverter list'.

Besides the Voltronic/Axpert inverters, premium systems like the Schneider Conext XW+ and Schneider TL10000 inverters, and 90% of Victron systems arn't in the approved list.

I spoke with Leon Swart from COCT today and he basically said that he has a minimum of 30 applications on his desk every day and the first thing they check when opening up the applications is whether the inverter is or isn't on the approved list. If its not there, the application is denied immediately. This makes sense from their side but there are 1000s of good working systems of great quality which will be decommissioned because the name didn't make the list.

As a system owner, its easy to just sit tight and see how it plays out over the next few months. As an installer though, we have a responsibility to get our clients paperwork in order and submitted, but if its not on the list???

11 minutes ago, Craigw200 said:

If its not there, the application is denied immediately

That's not very nice. This is going to be messy...

36 minutes ago, Craigw200 said:

As a system owner, its easy to just sit tight and see how it plays out over the next few months. As an installer though, we have a responsibility to get our clients paperwork in order and submitted, but if its not on the list???

 Ah, the list, the bureaucrats shield against the "reasonable man" concept.

The automatic disqualification without the application of mind because its easiest solution.

To register is to put your name on one of their lists as well.

 

Hi All, Pr. Eng here.... Started reading the thread and damn, i should get into this field! Seems that I can "skep 'n bietjie pap" while its raining hey?

But in all seriousness, I am working in utility scale projects but will be willing to look into the Residential sign-offs as a side gig and at reasonable prices. I understand that those quoting the ECSA figures at the start of the post, however ECSA figures usually work for larger systems and not what the CoCT actually needs.

On 2018/11/29 at 1:13 PM, Craigw200 said:

As a system owner, its easy to just sit tight and see how it plays out over the next few months. As an installer though, we have a responsibility to get our clients paperwork in order and submitted, but if its not on the list???

Nou on the quoted part, the reason the inverters aren't on the list would simply be that they havn't certified themselves under NRS097-2-1, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Note that there is no SANS standard for inverters at the moment as the IEC one has not been accepted(last time I checked). For any Company and/or Munic to allow the use of any equipment on their system a local standard is required and the equipment must comply, now NRS is NOT a local standard (SANS approved), thus CoCT is taking it further with the PR. Eng / Tech sign-off. This is how they interpret the OHS-Act.

And yes, very interesting few suggestions on how the Axpert can be made "legal" as long is it is separated from the AC-Grid it falls under UPS regulations of SANS10142, so your change over switch (break-before-make) is the way to go here, but then there is a few problems that comes with that! 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Rautenk said:

Residential sign-offs as a side gig and at reasonable prices.

Excellent!

Are you based in Cpt by any chance Rautenk?
And what fees are you contemplating?

@The Terrible Triplett I am in Cape Town (Northern Subs), and open to discussion.

I would like to support the Residential market as much as possible, so will need to think about exactly how to do it efficiently as well.

Send me a direct message and we can continue chatting there or best is to pop me an e-mail rautenk(at)gmail.com 

32 minutes ago, Rautenk said:

Send me a direct message ... 

Done.