Bev Sterrett Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 In January 2018 I had a 10kv system put in, I am totally off grid. 2 x 5kv inverters, 9 panels and 12 deep cell batteries. For a couple of weeks it ran fine then it started cutting out early evening. Then he suggested I get another 3 panels and another bank of batteries of 4. This did not improve the situation at all bar by an hour or so. I got hold of installer and to cut a very long story short, after assuring me he would come up and take half the batteries in to be tested, he did so only in Sept 2018 leaving me with now 8 batteries which of course left me with me with, prior and after, huge fuel bills to run my generator and replacing the first one due to the hours it was having to work. I have literally begged for my system to be put back together. Then in Dec he approached me to say because of all the hassles he had made a plan with a battery supplier and he was going to sell the replaced 8 batteries and bring up a lithium battery pack that would more than do the job (10kv) , take the remaining 8 and sell those and I am sorted. I am sitting here at the end of January with no communication from him whatsoever although whatsapps to say he was going to call but never does are never ending. Is there a onbudsman I can approach as I have been to an attorney who is also getting the runaround. Been to social media and now am awaiting a consumer journalist who I am hoping will take up my cause but I need to know if there is another route I can take if all else fails. His facebook site shows he is doing large jobs but I seem to have become an afterthought and am out of pocket close on R200 000 for an incomplete system. I live alone on a large farm and do not even have any outside lights for security due to this. I did ask from the get go if he being based in Ballito and me near Fouriesburg would be an issue and was told not at all as he comes this way often. PLEASE if anyone can recommend how I can move forward with this I would be grateful. Kind regards Bev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJJ Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Hello Bev Sorry to hear about your predicament! Sadly as far as I know your only port of call would be a attorney of sorts as there is no oversight body that I am aware of. However, if you are a bit into the whole DIY thing, you can give us a list of your system components and your power draw and perhaps we can get a better picture of what is going on there and we can make a few recommendations that should hopefully help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Welcome Bev. No ombudsman. Attorneys MAY work, but unless you have a friend doing it for you, it is going to cost more. Use FB and tell everyone about your experiences. Tell us who it is? Another thought, maybe try and find out where the installer bought the equipment from. Ask a friend to phone him as a interested party, asking where he buys from. Once you have the details, contact them directly saying that THEIR equipment does not work. Then there is what you can do now. As PJJ suggested, give us more info: Make and model of inverter? Make and model of the batteries you have? How many panels? Fuses, cables and connections - pictures work very nice.And then we need loads and how long you WANT them to run. There is a light at the end of this tunnel. Give us the info above for starters, lets see what we can share back. For you have the stuff and maybe with a bunch of us helping with ideas, and there are installers here also, you can make your system work right now. Then re-asses from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bev Sterrett Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 I will have to have a look but the installer has my batteries or the ones he said he was replacing the failed ones with. I do not have the money to now replace those as well. Surely this whole thing constitutes theft as well as he removed half of them and sold them and the other half are also buggered. I am absolutely stunned by how this installer has no integrity at all. The company is Berg west Electrical who did the installation and the owner Johan van der Westhuizen is the one bulldusting me. Surely this should not have come to this at all. March will be a year so what of my warranty on the batteries. I am going to be talking to another attorney who seems to have a good set of teeth and he says he is going to sue for the entire amount I paid plus all the fuel slips I have kept. I have no idea of how the system works so am not sure how I will be able to follow your instructions as I have a hip disability and do all the work myself so cannot even climb up ladders to give you guys answers. I can tell you the make of the inverter and the batteries which are 200amp I think the term is. Thank you for your answers I honestly appreciate it. I will chat to this attorney as well and have printed all my payments out for him. He is really angry that the first attorney allowed him to get away with promises and says he should have set deadlines. Not even going on social media to this companies page or mentioning it on facebook has worried him at all. But I have not yet started turning up the heat. I am over this nonsense and do not have that kind of money lying around at all to now start again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bev Sterrett Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 Oh just to add I did have an independent solar installer come out to see the system and he was shocked at the set up. He has prepared a report for my attorney and recommendations as to how he sees this working out. Plus he has taken pictures as well. I am with Legal wise so am going to use them as I cannot afford to fork out for this whole mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Bev Sterrett said: Oh just to add I did have an independent solar installer come out to see the system and he was shocked at the set up. He has prepared a report for my attorney and recommendations as to how he sees this working out. Plus he has taken pictures as well. I am with Legal wise so am going to use them as I cannot afford to fork out for this whole mess. Perfect. Cannot see a better approach than that. Pop back and let us know what transpired? And if you are unsure of anything, ask here. Someone will be able to help. Best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepBass9 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I'm so glad I installed DIY so I know exactly who to blame for any stuff ups! Elbow, ___, Geoff.D and 1 other 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Sorry to hear about this. Some alarms just went off when I read how many batteries you have and how long they were out of service. IF he had to bring in new batteries, and mix with the old batteries, it would just cause more problems. From what you say it is a bit difficult to say whether the equipment is sufficient for your needs. The installer probably just guessed. Based on the info given so far, I would guess that 1) The battery bank is too small for your needs. 2) The solar PV array is too small to charge it, or not installed properly - i.e. not aligned to the sun properly, or have some shade, or wrong wiring done, etc. 3) The charger might have the wrong settings for the batteries / from the solar panels. From a legal point of view, you can approach the Consumer Protection Act as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said: Some alarms just went off Those alarms already went off when I heard "2 x 5kv (sic) inverters". Quite frankly, if you open the door and you see the two side-by-side Axperts... you already know lots of money was saved in this install. Of course you might be surprised and find that the rest was done properly... but too often that just doesn't happen. 7 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said: From what you say it is a bit difficult to say whether the equipment is sufficient for your needs. The installer probably just guessed. I think you are right there. One size fits all thinking. He did say he has 9 panels... but of course we don't know the size. I can guess though. 9 Panels won't divide into 2, so it is likely not 72-cell panels (3 series would push the voltage too high), so it's most likely 3 strings of 3 series panels, 60 cells, 250W-275W each, or around 2.2Kwp on the roof. That does not sound too bad. For batteries he has 12 batteries, that's three strings, 200Ah each. So around 14kwh storage at 50% DoD. Again... not bad. So it seems to me that the devil lies in the rest of the install: Was an effort made to balance those batteries, is the cabling done correctly, and so forth... Edited January 31, 2019 by plonkster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 19 minutes ago, plonkster said: Those alarms already went off when I heard "2 x 5kv (sic) inverters". Quite frankly, if you open the door and you see the two side-by-side Axperts... you already know lots of money was saved in this install. Of course you might be surprised and find that the rest was done properly... but too often that just doesn't happen. I think you are right there. One size fits all thinking. He did say he has 9 panels... but of course we don't know the size. I can guess though. 9 Panels won't divide into 2, so it is likely not 72-cell panels (3 series would push the voltage too high), so it's most likely 3 strings of 3 series panels, 60 cells, 250W-275W each, or around 2.2Kwp on the roof. That does not sound too bad. For batteries he has 12 batteries, that's three strings, 200Ah each. So around 14kwh storage at 50% DoD. Again... not bad. So it seems to me that the devil lies in the rest of the install: Was an effort made to balance those batteries, is the cabling done correctly, and so forth... But is it sufficient for the load, when needed? I want to err on the side of it being too little for the house's load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 10 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said: But is it sufficient for the load, when needed? I want to err on the side of it being too little for the house's load. Good point. One can of course easily calculate it. Lead acid doesn't want you to really do more than C/5, and even C/5 is only sustainable for maybe a few minutes before things become hot and so on. That leaves you with 120A in this situation, which is only good for around half the power that the inverters are sized for. So yes, well spotted: Way too much inverter for the batteries. Could have saved more money by using just one Axpert Someone (he actually sells Axperts) made a good point the other day. We were talking about the new 5KVA Multiplus-II that is on the way, which has an 18W quiescent draw. He pointed out to me that you can easily save R3k in battery costs simply because your overnight draw on the battery is lower. Now consider that the MP-II is also a hybrid and you could install one 5KVA unit with this battery bank, use the grid for the peak power... and not replace your battery bank prematurely. So at the risk of again coming down hard on ye olde Axperts... this is the cost that people don't count when they save lots of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNodashi Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 32 minutes ago, plonkster said: Good point. One can of course easily calculate it. Lead acid doesn't want you to really do more than C/5, and even C/5 is only sustainable for maybe a few minutes before things become hot and so on. That leaves you with 120A in this situation, which is only good for around half the power that the inverters are sized for. So yes, well spotted: Way too much inverter for the batteries. Could have saved more money by using just one Axpert Someone (he actually sells Axperts) made a good point the other day. We were talking about the new 5KVA Multiplus-II that is on the way, which has an 18W quiescent draw. He pointed out to me that you can easily save R3k in battery costs simply because your overnight draw on the battery is lower. Now consider that the MP-II is also a hybrid and you could install one 5KVA unit with this battery bank, use the grid for the peak power... and not replace your battery bank prematurely. So at the risk of again coming down hard on ye olde Axperts... this is the cost that people don't count when they save lots of money. In this scenario @Bev Sterrett is totally offgrid so I guess the installer installed 10Kva as that it was she needs? I am guessing perhaps she needs about 7 or 8 KVA on average. But we don't how much is needed after sunset. But I am speculating here. And this tells me that the system wasn't sized properly. Bev says it ran fine for the first few weeks and then the problems started, which makes me think the batteries then probably ran at say 70%, or more? @Bev Sterrett could you please give us more info on your usage? How much power do you need during the day, and how much at night? Have you optimized your usage a bit? i.e. are you using LED lights, A++ (or even A+++) fridges, gas stoves, fairly new and thus low-power-usage TV/radio/computer? And what about aircons? Where do you stay? Does your roof face North? If not, where does it face? Are the panels flat on the roof or facing toward the sun (as much as possible?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
___ Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 20 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said: But I am speculating here. And this tells me that the system wasn't sized properly. Bev says it ran fine for the first few weeks and then the problems started, which makes me think the batteries then probably ran at say 70%, or more? Yes, it does sound like the batteries worked too hard. Can't say a thing without more info. Or data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bev Sterrett Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 Hi everyone sorry I have been away all day, here is what was initially installed as per quote copied and pasted. Supply Rectron 5KVA 48 Volt Pure Sinewave Inverters 2 Supply 200AH 12 Volt Deep Cycle Solar Batteries 12 Supply 270Watt Solar Panels 9 Supply Roof fixings, Solar Cables and Connecters . Then when it was not getting through the night it was suggested we add another 3 panels and 4 batteries of the same above. The one inverter was removed and taken to be updated so I have been running off the one inverter the entire time. Bare in mind I completely renewed all my appliances, all fridges and freezers are A+ and A++ etc and I have a donkey geyser and gas stove, use the kettle once a day and fill the thermos so again that is not used. A test was done and when everything is on, microwave, kettle, toaster and as much as I could put on at once I was not quite using 4kw or amp I'm not sure which one but I was told that one inverter was more than adequate but to ensure I did not have an issue with tripping IF I exceeded the 5 kva that we install 10kva. I hope this helps and my house is North facing. Hoping I have answered the right questions. When the 8 batteries were removed I asked would not bringing back the 8 new ones while the others went for testing then strain the new ones I was assured not and that it would be a case of a week or two at most, that was in Sept and I still am sitting with the old 8 batteries. I had been assured that all my deep cell batteries were going to be replaced with lithium ones and that I would even get change, I stated then that I was not interested in talk of having change in my pocket I just wanted my system to be correctly installed and functioning. I am going through so much fuel running this genny it is beyond a joke with the cost of fuel these days and had to buy a new generator after the first one died a slow death even being serviced every 25 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bev Sterrett Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 PS all lights are LED including the long florescent ones and no aircon only fans. No heaters are used at all in winter. I live in Fouriesburg Eastern Freestate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elbow Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 7 hours ago, plonkster said: We were talking about the new 5KVA Multiplus-II that is on the way @Elbow makes a note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johandup Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Of use will be if you are willing to post (in a pdf format) the original quote from your supplier. Only then will the experts be able to evaluate all the details. Sorry to hear about your predicament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bev Sterrett Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 Hi Johandup that is the quote from my supplier that I copy and pasted, but since that quote we then added a further 3 panels of same and another bank of 4 batteries of the same, he had the system running in parallel if that makes sense to you although since the one inverter was removed many months ago I have no idea what it is running in as far as that goes. But those are the makes and output of the panels and batteries as in my quote. Here it is again. Supply Rectron 5KVA 48 Volt Pure Sinewave Inverters 2 Supply 200AH 12 Volt Deep Cycle Solar Batteries 12 (then added another 4 to make 16 batteries)Supply 270Watt Solar Panels 9 (then added another 3 panels to make 12.)Supply Roof fixings, Solar Cables and Connecters . Kind regards Bev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johandup Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 13 minutes ago, Bev Sterrett said: Hi Johandup that is the quote from my supplier that I copy and pasted, but since that quote we then added a further 3 panels of same and another bank of 4 batteries of the same, he had the system running in parallel if that makes sense to you although since the one inverter was removed many months ago I have no idea what it is running in as far as that goes. But those are the makes and output of the panels and batteries as in my quote. Here it is again. Supply Rectron 5KVA 48 Volt Pure Sinewave Inverters 2 Supply 200AH 12 Volt Deep Cycle Solar Batteries 12 (then added another 4 to make 16 batteries)Supply 270Watt Solar Panels 9 (then added another 3 panels to make 12.)Supply Roof fixings, Solar Cables and Connecters . Kind regards Bev Hi Bev, I would have thought that such a quote should have read: “supply and install”. Did he not state anywhere what the capabilities of such a system should be? Were any modifications done to your distribution board in your house? Was any written undertaking given to you when he removed your property. I think he is close to crossing the line of being accused of theft. Consider installing software for monitoring your system (if possible of course). Where you are now the system cannot be monitored at all - or am I wrong? Regards, Johan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamegrilled Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 22 hours ago, Bev Sterrett said: Supply Rectron 5KVA 48 Volt Pure Sinewave Inverters I take it your Axperts are Pf 0.8 (2015 model) and the firmware are at a version where SOC is an issue hence all the battery issues.An assumption that is. On 2019/01/30 at 6:07 PM, Bev Sterrett said: it started cutting out early evening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bev Sterrett Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 Hi Johandup It does state to supply and fit but I just copy and pasted the info I thought you would need. As far as I am aware there are no modifications to my DB board, no he only told me that the system would more than be adequate as I've known him for quite a number of years as his daughter rode with me and he worked at Eskom in those days so I took it that since he had been running his own company for a while he knew what he was doing. I have all our whatsapp messages where he says what he has done and his intentions etc but so far all I know is he has apparently sold my batteries and is going to replace all my batteries with lithium ones due to the inconvience and financial loss to myself but as I say that was ages ago and the only thing I have had is excuse after excuse and promise after promise. My landlord has spoken to him as well as my landlord installed his own solar system and Johan has made all the same promises to my landlord as well. My landlord is not too happy to play around with my system as he says if this goes to court Johan could try blaming him for something. And I agree with him fully. It is not for someone else to now fix it when it is not a complete system anyway. Well as far as I am concerned it is theft as I do not have what I have paid for and he has sold my goods in effect and has not replaced the damaged batteries that I am still sitting with. I'm not too sure what you mean by having the system monitored. Sorry I am not too clued up on these things at all. All I know is how to check how much charge is left and of course when it screams blue murder when low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seant Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 If you have started the legal ball rolling and have an outcome in mind where this ends up in court , we can offer our opinions and our sympathise with you at the failed instalation but I'm not sure what else we can do. Cause if you start changing the set up etc he could argue that it was your doing. I think you mentioned you have someone else evaluate the system which is great , but the way I see it you can proceed legal or take the knock and get the system redone so it works. ___ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 19 hours ago, Bev Sterrett said: Well as far as I am concerned it is theft as I do not have what I have paid for and he has sold my goods in effect and has not replaced the damaged batteries that I am still sitting with. If it was theft then report it to the police, open a case. But I struggle with the theft part. The guy can argue blue murder that it was his suppliers taking their time and if he convinces the court, then you may end up paying a lot more. Get legal advice first. The goods where given willingly and with permission, to be replaced. Fact that it takes very long ... that is not theft. 3 hours ago, seant said: I see it you can proceed legal or take the knock and get the system redone so it works. Unless Legalwise is not going to require additional payments, then that is an option yes. However, if there are going to be legal fees, then I also say take the knock and move on. Start by getting all the removed parts back. Get in contact with the actual suppliers, work via them, MAYBE it works. And less we forget. There is also the matter of using the system beyond it's designed specs ito say the batteries. I also suspect the batteries where overused / undercharged , so they are not going to be replaced no. And if it was the under charge known problem (on this and the Australian forum), then that is a manufacturer issue and no-one ever will take them to court. Caveat Emptor. Note: Going legal is NOT so easy, cheap nor fair as we would like it to be. It is very expensive and can backfire badly. A wise attorney once told to me, my words, remember two things when dealing with attorneys / advocates: 1) We are business people, we must make a profit, need to put food on the table, same as the rest. 2) If someone comes with a "matter of principal" case, by the 2nd round of fees having to be paid, that "matter of principal" has left the building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bev Sterrett Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 Th Terrible Tripplett for one thing I have not wanted to go any route bar getting my system sorted out as promised, how long would you wait if you were paying out all the time and yet nothing was forthcoming from your supplier. The batteries have been found defective by the supplier after testing and were replaced to my installer, I have not got my new batteries back and the balance are still sitting here since Sept that they were meant to be taken, tested and replaced as well. I am unable to afford to just move on and get another setup, I do not have it and my contractor knows this. He phoned me and said that he had sold my replaced batteries and that he had made a plan to replace those batteries with lithium ones which I said that was awesome and I was not interested in the change he said he would be able to give me, I just wanted my system complete and fully functional. Am I really being that unreasonable that all I want is what I have paid for in full and final payment? Must I now just move on and make a plan when I do not have anywhere near that kind of money lying around. Didn't then and don't now. Honestly all I want is to be treated fairly by someone who claims to be a legit business never mind someone I thought I knew. If he can do this to me as a 'friend' how are other people supposed to trust him? I asked him how he would feel if this was done to his daughter and he could not answer me. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 (edited) @Bev Sterrett , sorry for being blunt, but you are in a spot. You are frustrated and angry, rightfully so, because you have lost the "power" (pun intended). What you are going though is absolutely atrocious, unfair and wrong on many levels. But no one said get another setup. We said fix what you have, with our and your friend's help. Unless you choose a route, their is nothing else you can do. Nothing. Even dissing him on social media can get you into a serious spot of trouble. If you are NOT going legal on his arse, fix the system and save on your diesel bill. If you are going legal, IF Legalwise is FREE, then pursue this matter immediately. If LegalWise is NOT free, you could end up with legal fees that: 1) Costs you more than the entire system. 2) Cost the same as a new battery bank and alterations. That either of the above will take many many months, maybe even years, to finalize, with no guarantee that he has the monies then to refund your batts. And what would the diesel bill be, if you go legal? The fact that he is so blaze in that he has no "fear / worries" etc, says a lot. Either he has financial troubles, he just does not care or has no qualms in taking you for a ride. Or he is really busy with it all, it is just taking a stupidly long time ... pick one, add more reason. Point is, he is wiping himself of this. As I said, you are in a spot, you need to make a call, without any emotion and make a very very hard decision: Pursue the matter to the end of the law, at what financial / diesel cost? Or don't go legal, fix what you have and save again on diesel. Note: Walking away does not mean you stop asking him where the stuff is that he took! And maybe if Legalwise says yes, do it, go and make a case of theft for the stuff he took and sold, keep on fixing the system to save diesel. We can help here, free of charge, guide you to make your system work again, as is, if your friend can help, that would be awesome. Ps. As a matter of interest. If he hears a change in your voice, Whatsapps, he may get "worried" and produce the stuff he owes you faster. Be the victim or take the "power" (pun intended) back. That is what you need to consider. Edited February 2, 2019 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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