I have a question for everyone who owns rents or uses a property with an electrical installation.

This is not a trick question ... I just want to get an idea how many people are aware of this note at the top of a certificate of compliance.

"NOTE 1 In terms of South African legislation, the user or lessor is responsible for the safety of the electrical installation"

I would also like to hear your view on this note. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, isetech said:

I have a question for everyone who owns rents or uses a property with an electrical installation.

This is not a trick question ... I just want to get an idea how many people are aware of this note at the top of a certificate of compliance.

"NOTE 1 In terms of South African legislation, the user or lessor is responsible for the safety of the electrical installation"

I would also like to hear your view on this note. 

 

 

I personally think it's to ensure that the tenants don't mess around/ add circuits to the existing installation.  

I have learnt to check everything after a 'professional' have done his work. Most bungle their 'work' in my experience.  I have  to rectify their work in most cases, but not having the 'papers' makes for me to have to pay for idiots  to do 'work'.  I need to end up doing it myself to get it right. Have just again gone trough it with my solar installation.  

On 2021/12/18 at 5:08 PM, isetech said:

"NOTE 1 In terms of South African legislation, the user or lessor is responsible for the safety of the electrical installation"

I would also like to hear your view on this note. 

In my opinion users of installations in most cases pass the responsibility and safety on to the guy doing the C.O.C. they will blame the guy doing the C.O.C. because to them it is their “Proof of compliance.” Most C.O.C’s are not even valid because of the low standards and unskilled people doing the C.O.C’s in S.A. Most guys doing C.O.C’s don’t even have the latest SANS regulations. 

On 2021/12/18 at 8:10 PM, Pax said:

I have learnt to check everything after a 'professional' have done his work. Most bungle their 'work' in my experience.  I have  to rectify their work in most cases, but not having the 'papers' makes for me to have to pay for idiots  to do 'work'.  I need to end up doing it myself to get it right. Have just again gone trough it with my solar installation.  

Do you have a record of the "professional" working on site ...for example did you request and verify their qualifications?  Every  semi or skilled person has a card with his relevant qualification from a labourer to a eleconop to an electrician all the way to a master electrician. 

Where did you find the Professionals ... outside builders or referral from other people ... a WhatsApp groups and did you use the contractor with the cheapest quote? 

On 2021/12/19 at 9:15 PM, Gerrie said:

In my opinion users of installations in most cases pass the responsibility and safety on to the guy doing the C.O.C. they will blame the guy doing the C.O.C. because to them it is their “Proof of compliance.” Most C.O.C’s are not even valid because of the low standards and unskilled people doing the C.O.C’s in S.A. Most guys doing C.O.C’s don’t even have the latest SANS regulations. 

Could it be because people expect a COC for R650 ? which would be regarded as a fair price if you are only filling out the one page  "COC". 

However there is another part attached to a COC ... its called a test report ... the test could take anything from 3 hours to a couple of weeks or months  ... depending on the size of the installation ... like a shopping centre or large factory complex or a sugar mill ...  it is a simple 3 bedroom house with no extras ... if you do test reports on a daily basis ... 3 hours would sound about right ... I would be cautious of a person offering to issue a COC for R650 for 3 hours work. 

The person carrying out the inspection should have a card with their qualifications ... if you feel the person is unskilled ... you can simply request the details and verify the persons qualifications ... I would think a case fraud could be opened if the person doesnt have the correct qualifications.

You could request the inspector submits a fault list with the code violations and the regulations they used to get the information. 

Being the responsible person (user or lessor) ... you would be entitled to the information.

It might be a good idea to request the following info prior to the inspectors visit. 

A copy of inspectors qualification with the DOL and skill level ... be it single phase tester ... installation electrician or master electrician. 

Make sure the company is registered with the DOL and that the registration is up to date (renewal required every year or every 3 years)

Which SANS 10142 will be used to refence the code violations. 

The skill level of the person left on site to carry out any repairs if required would also be a smart idea. 

 

@isetech, yes, I do that. I have the CoC too. I most often work on referrals, but have learnt to check everyone's work afterwards. Too few people take pride in what they do nowadays and aim for acceptable in stead of excellence. Many do not even reach an acceptable standard and just bungle the job, just to level where it just about works to some extent.

I do fortunately know basics of many things as my dad believed that if someone else can do something, he too can, and also taught us 2 boys everything. We used to fix anything and everything as children. Invaluable lessons!

On 2021/12/18 at 5:27 PM, Antonio de Sa said:

I personally think it's to ensure that the tenants don't mess around/ add circuits to the existing installation.  

I would think the tenant would be the one insisting the electrical installation is safe prior to moving in ... I am surprised property management groups dont insist that the owner provide a legit COC to cover themselves ... if someone were injured on a property they manage ... who would become liable the owner ... the management group or the user ? 

After watching the clip about people working from home and the companies liability for their safety and the OSHACT ... and who would be responsible if the staff member slipped in the kitchen and ended up with a broken arm or leg etc. 

 

On 2021/12/19 at 9:15 PM, Gerrie said:

In my opinion users of installations in most cases pass the responsibility and safety on to the guy doing the C.O.C. they will blame the guy doing the C.O.C. because to them it is their “Proof of compliance.” Most C.O.C’s are not even valid because of the low standards and unskilled people doing the C.O.C’s in S.A. Most guys doing C.O.C’s don’t even have the latest SANS regulations. 

The guy issuing CoC,is an electrician, qualified, registered and Authorized, and should know better than you and I. If a person feels that he knows better than a professional, then don't hire them. Or if you have to check up on work done by a contractor, you have hired the wrong one. What I have noticed is that people just have a problem with paying. We want to pay minimum and yet expect top class workmanship and that is not possible. The person who has been authorized to issue CoC, must have completed all the requirements and has been tested, passed his test/exams. This was the case ages ago when I did my Electrical trade test, and I doubt this has changed. Otherwise everyone would be in a position to give out CoC's. If an authorized person issue a certificate, which he/she is authorized to issue. That certificate is valid, whether he did the tests or not, that is another topic. But at the end of the day, the certificate is valid. IMHO, There is no low standards in SA, just people that wants quick cash 

3 hours ago, isetech said:

Could it be because people expect a COC for R650 ? which would be regarded as a fair price if you are only filling out the one page  "COC". 

However there is another part attached to a COC ... its called a test report ... the test could take anything from 3 hours to a couple of weeks or months  ... depending on the size of the installation ... like a shopping centre or large factory complex or a sugar mill ...  it is a simple 3 bedroom house with no extras ... if you do test reports on a daily basis ... 3 hours would sound about right ... I would be cautious of a person offering to issue a COC for R650 for 3 hours work. 

Testing shouldn't take 3 hours.  I've done wiring at about 4 homes for close family now and testing is part of your install.  Verifying afterward consists of plugging in a device that tells you if the wiring is correct (ie. earth, neutral and live are correctly wired) + RCD test.  I even have a simple attachment that does the same for lights.  Which leaves fixed appliances, they can vary, but generally you probe for earth continuity, and again there are ways to test for RCD on those (a plug with earth probe is what I used).

Not sure what else there is to talk about when issuing a CoC?  If you mean they need to fix things, well that is almost certainly a separate cost.

3 hours ago, isetech said:

Could it be because people expect a COC for R650 ? which would be regarded as a fair price if you are only filling out the one page  "COC". 

However there is another part attached to a COC ... its called a test report ... the test could take anything from 3 hours to a couple of weeks or months  ... depending on the size of the installation ... like a shopping centre or large factory complex or a sugar mill ...  it is a simple 3 bedroom house with no extras ... if you do test reports on a daily basis ... 3 hours would sound about right ... I would be cautious of a person offering to issue a COC for R650 for 3 hours work. 

My GF works in the construction industry (anything mechanical HVAC, drainage, etc.).  So I get to see often how the whole setup works.

The CoC issued on sites of that size is based solely based on the contractors work.  An actual engineer would have issued wire diagrams, floor plans, etc.  The electrician doesn't do anything but install exactly as told by those diagrams.  They are therefore responsible for testing and issuing a CoC based on their work.  They shouldn't be taking initiative.  The skills required to do this are greatly exaggerated by many electricians.

I've gone with her to a site and the only time there are problems is when contractors take "initiative".  At that point the engineer will simply refuse the work and they need to redo everything

The issued documents are reviewed by more engineers after that.  For mechanical/industrial/etc. a PR Eng (engineer qualified as professional engineer by the engineering council of SA), must sign the document which is legally binding (Also why they have insurance so that they have protection if they get sued).

She's reviewed most of the large companies (think banks, grain, cereal, protein farms, you name it) in SAs sites and not once did they have a lowly electrician just do a CoC for a site and call it a day (she isn't electrician but they have a electrical engineer accompany).  The expertise required for these sites are beyond the expertise possessed by someone without an engineering degree.

A technician which is what an electrician is, takes existing plans and regulations and implements them exactly as is.  There is no wiggle room for them to alter.  An engineer can work from first principles (ie. thermodynamics for HVAC for example) and design, including new ways of solving a problem and designs with grey areas that are justified based on occupation or site conditions (not allowed for a technician).

So yes technician is skilled work, but its price point is arguable acceptable when you compare it to the price point of engineers.

My 2c.

A  COC is a snap shot. The building is compliant at time of sign off. Thereafter all sorts of things may be changed, added or decay. So the property is no longer compliant and that's not the sparky's fault. 

I myself added external lights (two mounted on a metal structure) after purchase. I changed some wall sockets. An electrician friend pointed out to me that I had voided compliance and should have heeded the wording on the packaging that a properly qualified person should do the fitting. But I was thinking "it's just a wall socket, what's to worry about." 

Is this a problem in the real world?

Potentially.

If the worse happens and your insurers send out a loss adjuster and that person finds one thing wrong with the wiring, or just plain undeclared, then they may rule that you did not act in good faith, did not make a full declaration and thus your policy is null and void. 

And that is why from time to time I have advised folks to get their house recertified after the installation of their solar system and to file a copy of the COC with their insurers. 

Edited December 25, 20214 yr by Bobster

On 2021/12/24 at 12:53 PM, Pax said:

I have the CoC too. I most often work on referrals, but have learnt to check everyone's work afterwards. Too few people take pride in what they do nowadays and aim for acceptable in stead of excellence.

I agree very few tradesmen of today have pride in what they do. I also grew up with a father that taught me to take that extra few minutes but make sure the job is correct.

I were looking at my new Neighbours garden spotlights (about 15xLED spotlights) facing up into the trees they just lie on the ground facing up, it looks beautiful at night and noticed they can’t switch off, I think day-night sensor is faulty as they are burning 24/7. This house was C.O.C’d about three months ago with the lights like this. One light is even facing down shining into the ground. This is one of those C.O.C.’s that make you wonder if anything was tested.

On 2021/12/25 at 8:07 AM, Bobster said:

Is this a problem in the real world?

Potentially.

If the worse happens and your insurers send out a loss adjuster and that person finds one thing wrong with the wiring, or just plain undeclared, then they may rule that you did not act in good faith, did not make a full declaration and thus your policy is null and void. 

And that is why from time to time I have advised folks to get their house recertified after the installation of their solar system and to file a copy of the COC with their insurers. 

One of the biggest lies the insurance industry will try to sell you is 1) they are doing you a favor, 2) you can't be "negligent"

Firstly, when you buy insurance they are taking your risk in exchange for money.  They aren't doing you a favor.

Secondly, insurance covers you in the case of negligence because they are assuming that risk on your behalf.  Even gross negligence.  They need to prove your intention was actually to claim.  Driving into a wall because you can't sell your car VS. driving into a wall without it being your intent to claim.

Could an insurance company void your claim because you changed a plug?  Possible, but the circumstances would need to really prove your only intention was to claim.  That is often really tough to prove. 

Also because of recent changes in legislation, the insurer, on denying a claim, need to prove that your actions directly lead to the fault.  So if you changed plugs but your house burns down because of a faulty geyser it isn't relevant. This was put to test recently when Momentum tried to deny life insurance claims for someone dying from unrelated causes.  That ship has sailed, the ombud and courts aren't taking sh#t from companies anymore. 

Again keep in mind, they are assuming your risk, that risk includes negligence and any negligence they don't wish to cover needs to be explicitly called out in the contract.  They are paid to take your risk.  Hence why the courts are taking a very, very dim view on rejections that aren't out right in the contract T&Cs as exclusions.  The law also requires they explicitly list the exclusions.  A vague contract, based on recent test, again found in favor of the insured.  The insurance company took that person's risk so the exclusions needed to be listed explicitly or it doesn't qualify as taking risk (which they full well knew they are taking when you signed up).  This was established during COVID related claims being rejected (the court overturned those rejections).

Edited December 30, 20214 yr by Gnome

On 2021/12/27 at 7:25 PM, Gerrie said:

I agree very few tradesmen of today have pride in what they do. I also grew up with a father that taught me to take that extra few minutes but make sure the job is correct.

I were looking at my new Neighbours garden spotlights (about 15xLED spotlights) facing up into the trees they just lie on the ground facing up, it looks beautiful at night and noticed they can’t switch off, I think day-night sensor is faulty as they are burning 24/7. This house was C.O.C’d about three months ago with the lights like this. One light is even facing down shining into the ground. This is one of those C.O.C.’s that make you wonder if anything was tested.

I would be interested to see the COC issued ... I would also like to know why this was not reported to The AIA or the ECA or the attorney or even the estate agent ... 3 months ago you would probably still have a claim with the CPA. 

This could be one of the many issues I have been experiencing with buyers ... they find this kind of installation ... but due to the challenges you face trying to ge tit sorted out ... most will just accept it and move on.

Looking at this picture ... you dont need to be an electrician to see the installation is illegal ... surely you are not stupid that you would actually accept this and pay for the COC ? 

We all know someone who knows someone who has had issues with the sale and purchasing of properties ... why would you invest millions ( a life time investment for many) and not have the place checked before you authorise the transfer ... knowing that once the transfer goes through you pretty screwed. 

 

 

 

Lets not get started with insurances ... not my favourite people ... we put in 2 claims for a couple hundred thousand ... after meeting with the assessor ... it turns out that there was no bad weather (lightning) on the day of the claim. 

Every step possible was taken to protect the building from lightning and power surges ... right from the meter box to the each DB all the way to the devices/PCB's ... lightning/surge protective devices were installed.

The insurance company only covered for the damages to the protectives devices (about 15 % of the claim) ... but none of the equipment damaged and everything was blown ... from the day/night switch on the wall to the aircon PCB's to the gate PCBs you name it  ...literally every single electronic device on the property. The customer was told to claim the rest from the council (supplier) 

Let this be a warning to anyone who thinks they have "power lightning/surge cover" ... it has to be included in the small print of your policy. Lightning cover and surge protection is not the same thing ... boy did learn this the hard way. 

For example ... if the neutral conductor is stolen on the supply and there is a 600 + VAC surge ... which results in damages to your electrical equipment ... if it is not in the small print ... and they can prove that there was no lightning on that day ... or they are aware of other claims in that area ... chances are you not getting a cent from the insurance company. 

On 2022/01/07 at 6:14 AM, isetech said:

I would be interested to see the COC issued ... I would also like to know why this was not reported to The AIA or the ECA or the attorney or even the estate agent ...

There are plenty of threads about completely illegal and dangerous installs on a local electrical contractors forum.  From what I gathered, quite a few folks there have reported illegal installs by repeat offenders but it seems no action is ever taken.  I have no idea what power an estate agent would have but legal action is expensive.  Legal action on a house would exceed the monetary you can take to a normal court, so you are talking about high court fees.  My friend was in situation like that were the amount was around R1m (estate claim by a 3rd party).  Even though the person had no prospect of success, in the end the case dragged on for years and the legal fees were nearing R500k when it was cheaper to settle because the other attorney was really good at just delaying and increasing costs.

My take on that is, it isn't trivial to sue for things related to such high value items as property.  In the end it is just cheaper to have it fixed than pay an attorney, court costs, etc.

Not to say I don't fully agree with you.  The lack of accountability in the SA electrical industry is an absolute disgrace.  Also why I put little to no stock in the "skills" of electricians (most are absolute garbage and have no understanding of the theory or even what they are doing.  Lots are just 9am-5pm-ers and this is just their day jobs).  Their industry doesn't enforce standards and unfair as it may seem, it is their industry and they have an obligation to make it better.

@gnome ... I agree 100% with the comment about the electrical industry ... estate agents offer the COC included in their fee ... what they dont tell you is that a "test report"  is attached to the COC ... which has to be completed  prior to issuing a COC ... so the COC will cost anything from R650 ... but take note the COC is only 1 page (Annexure 1) which takes 10 minutes to fill out ... its the quote that arrives in your inbox after the inspector has visited the property ... that the bit people are not informed about ... the kicker  any losses during the actually inspection will be covered by the repair work or re inspection once the repairs are carried out. 

So here are a few tips.

If you are going to buy a property ... make sure you are happy with what your see prior to authorizing  the transfer ... you are in control up to that point  ... once the transfer goes through ... you are on your own ... if you are unhappy with what you find once you have moved in ... it then becomes  your responsibility to arrange the investigation ... you are liable for "all" costs incurred to carry out the investigation and repair cost and legal fees. 

Request the test results and fault list from the seller prior to the transfer ... with any before and after pics if available.

Take photos of the building when you first visit the site ... on many occasions I have noticed electrical fixtures missing or illegal wiring removed rather than replaced or upgraded.

Take note of the DB ... the location ... the label and any open spaces (if any) 

The most common problems we find when the installation is not up to standard ... a friend issuing a COC for a friend ... or electricians who work for large companies doing the boss a favour ... or electrician doing large contracts for franchises ... they offer to sign off COC's for the boss or managers.

The idea behind the COC is a great ... the fact that its become a quick money making racket for certain people with no consequence for their action is the problem.

Another problem we experience with COC's ... this crap of inspectors/contractor saying they will be back to just  fix minor issues that are not right ... bullshyte ... the property must be up to standard at the day of transfer. 

Lesson to learn for this ... Step one when buying a property ... make sure all the "certificate of compliances" issued (gas/electrical/electric fence/bugs) are legit and the property is "reasonably safe" before you authorise the transfer.

YOU are responsible for the safety of YOUR electrical installation not the inspector or the electrical contractor. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just a note with regards to the picture posted with the flood light facing the ground and the 2 illegal connection .. .you dont need to be an electrician to see that the wiring is dangerous ... it is the person  who lives on that properties responsibility to make sure the electrical installation is reasonable safe ... (how you make it safe is not important) however if a person/child is injured or dies as a result of that dangerous wiring ... who ever is the owner or person renting the property will be held liable for an injuries or damages .. I doubt the person who issued the COC would be held liable ... any lawyers here who could verify this comment? 

By the way that light could be plugged into a socket on the wall ... which would mean it is  "not" part of the electrical installation.

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 20224 yr by isetech