Battery balancers HA-02

[SilverNodashi]

1 minute ago, Don said:

So you have 2 choices:

Option 1: Infini 5 kW - R40k (No batteries no backup power in the event of power outage) You pay an extra R24k to make sure they can run without batteries.

Option 2: Infini V-Series - R16k and R22k Batteries = R38K (With backup power to cater for power outages) You have to replace batteries every 5 years.

The choice is yours. Right now, people might prefer Option 1, as they don't have to replace batteries. Wait till we start load shedding again, you will see the swing towards Option 2.

I personally still prefer Option 2. 

No

Option1: (cheaper?) Infinisolar 5KW with smaller battery bank later on when absolutely needed. 

With the Infinisolar 5KW, I can add batteries whenever I like. And there's no changes to the system, other than having to make space for batteries. I could potentially save a couple year's usage on batteries. 

[___]

21 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

A small backup system works much better than you think!

A small HYBRID system works better than you think, which is what I think you meant. 3KVA... take the peaks from the grid. 80% of your consumption sits down there below 3kva, and it's ample backup for when the grid is out. I believe a 3kw Infini is around 16k. A 3kva Multiplus is now low 20s (though keep your eyes peeled, team JZ is on the prowl again...).

[Don]

3 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

With the Infinisolar 5KW, I can add batteries whenever I like.

Then you have the same setup as in Option 2, for which you paid an additional R24k, not to run on batteries. That does not make sense.

[SilverNodashi]

15 minutes ago, Don said:

Then you have the same setup as in Option 2, for which you paid an additional R24k, not to run on batteries. That does not make sense.

No it doesn't make sense. 3 years from now, when I saved up some cash by not buying the batteries upfront, and not using them, I will

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, plonkster said:

TTT, time for needs vs wants speech again! :-P

I did that a few posts, no pages, ago ... SMA reference was also missed in this "contest".

For IF you have power failures, THEN get batts. Till them, go grid tie with option to add batts.

Why SMA, I now know you can connect a SMA to say a Multiplus / Quattro to give it the required gird reference, so you are online during failures with battery backup but ONLY IF YOU NEED BATTERIES.

So it boils down to: Are there power failures? No, there are not.

So why waste money on batts if you can wait a few years and get lithium's when power failures return, using a approved top of the range grid tied SMA saving you a lot of Tom till then.

EDIT: On lest I forget, SMA has all the interfaces to switch things on and off based on power availability. No need for external software as they have it already.

[Don]

48 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

No it doesn't make sense. 3 years from now, when I saved up some cash by not buying the batteries upfront, and not using them, I will

It all comes down to whether you believe we will be doing load shedding in the next 5 years or not. If you think not, go for Option 1 and pay the extra R24 upfront to be able to run without batteries. If you think we will be doing load shedding in the next 5 years, you might as well go for Option 2, as you will be adding batteries in any case. So spend the savings on the expensive inverter and install the batteries from the start.

[Chris Hobson]

I understand Silver's argument and it definitely has merit. Someone can enter the market with a 3kW Infini for much the same price as a Infinisolar V series.  There is a 1kW difference but 95% of the time the user is not going to notice that. The decision with regard to batteries can be delayed. Once it is established that you do in fact need batteries the purchase thereof can be scheduled. Two smaller expenses rather than one big one and if the battery purchase is forced upon you hopefully you have saved a whole whack of interest and now your batteries are brand new rather than a couple of years old.

For me in a off-grid situation being able to operate without batteries is not a strong selling point  but has merit in the urban environment.

For me the real argument should be between the V series and the Axpert. With a V series available why would anyone want to buy an Axpert?

I am not familiar with the NRS-097-2-1 standard. I looked at the Republic of Roodeberg wiring standard here on the farm and don't see any reference to that standard. 

OK I have found NRS-097-2-1 what aspects does the V series not comply with?

 

[SilverNodashi]

1 hour ago, Chris Hobson said:

For me the real argument should be between the V series and the Axpert. With a V series available why would anyone want to buy an Axpert?

I am not familiar with the NRS-097-2-1 standard. I looked at the Republic of Roodeberg wiring standard here on the farm and don't see any reference to that standard. 

OK I have found NRS-097-2-1 what aspects does the V series not comply with?

 

Apart from the price? I don't see any reason why anyone would want to go the Axpert route these days. Other than the price and lot of stock with suppliers & installers. 

 

1 hour ago, Chris Hobson said:

 

OK I have found NRS-097-2-1 what aspects does the V series not comply with?

 

Please share the document you have, stating that the V series is on the approved list?

[Chris Hobson]

1 hour ago, SilverNodashi said:

Please share the document you have, stating that the V series is on the approved list?

So it has not been submitted for testing and registration ?

[Don]

8 hours ago, plonkster said:

Haven't we also established that the V-series doesn't comply with NRS-097-2-1?

Seems that way. Neither does the 5 kW Infini or any of Blue Inveretrs comply. I don't see them on the latest list either I have got. You get the Municipality out to inspect you installation and they take out a list of approved inverters dated 2014, haha.

[Riaanh]

1 hour ago, SilverNodashi said:

Apart from the price? I don't see any reason why anyone would want to go the Axpert route these days. Other than the price and lot of stock with suppliers & installers.

Horses for courses I'd say.

[SilverNodashi]

50 minutes ago, Chris Hobson said:

So it has not been submitted for testing and registration ?

The document I have, dated 2017-02-01 has InfiniSolar 3kW Plus xx and InfiniSolar 10k, but not the 5Kw, nor Victron

[Don]

Thanks for confirming that @SilverNodashi.

[SilverNodashi]

15 minutes ago, Don said:

Thanks for confirming that @SilverNodashi.

pleasure

 

Something that just came to mind: Another reason to choose the Infinisolar 3Kw over the Infinisolar V, is that the Infinisolar V doesn't offer feedback to the grid 

[___]

4 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

The document I have, dated 2017-02-01 has InfiniSolar 3kW Plus xx and InfiniSolar 10k, but not the 5Kw, nor Victron

If the inverter has VDE AR N 4105 (the German one) it is usually a sign that it will tick all the boxes. I used to think that testing for the local stuff is then a mere formality, but apparently it's not quite that simple. So I have to admit I don't know. Still, if it suports the German standard, it should be good, even if it is on no local list.

With the Victron models there is something interesting going on, something we discussed before. Victron themselves have a document that says their inverters comply when combined with the Ziehl anti-islanding relay. The Ziehl device itself is also on the Cape Town list. As discussed before, the Ziehl is a passive device and no anti-islanding is complete without an active component, which means that listing the device on its own (without listing the inverters that go with it) makes no sense. In addition, it is clearly a mistake that the Victron is not on the list, as it does comply. But this ought to be old news by now and isn't really the topic under discussion.

I think the point being made is that if you're going to pick a hybrid inverter, pick one that at least has some hope of being approved for grid-interactive operation. We have at least some Infini's on the list, and an explicit negative answer for the V. This may change in future, but right now I'd get the 3kva infini over the V-series. Well... I wouldn't get either cause my blood is blue.... but if I had to :-)

[Chris-R]

I am reading and reading and here about blue blood ( Not "Bulls" ) "experts " and a lot of different opinions and ideas and I must say at the end of all this I am quite confused! Nevertheless, with our JZ in control I am quite sure that it is impossible to predict anything in future. It might even be that we are all off-grid in 6 months time!!

I made a decision that I want to be in control of my own destiny in so far as it is possible! For that reason I decided to go hybrid and to make use of a battery backup system for no-grid situations. At this stage I won't be bothered at all if JZ decides to start charging R10 per kwh, I only use that power cause its cheap and convenient and available! My genie works well and could supply the necessary in times of continuous bad weather, no grid or no batteries, conditions.

My decision was to go with the "THICK GREY BLOOD " units and I must say that I don't regret my decision for one moment. It's approved, works well and has all the bells and whistles that we are talking about.

 

Congrats to @Manie, who has just added the 9.12 to the ICC system for windows. It works wonderful and I now have a proper monitoring system, linked with emoncms and my BMV-702. For all the "GREY" users out there, speak to @manie, you can really try it, it works well!!!

I have opened myself for being shot and is ready for it, who will be first?

 

[SilverNodashi]

8 hours ago, plonkster said:

If the inverter has VDE AR N 4105 (the German one) it is usually a sign that it will tick all the boxes. I used to think that testing for the local stuff is then a mere formality, but apparently it's not quite that simple. So I have to admit I don't know. Still, if it suports the German standard, it should be good, even if it is on no local list.

With the Victron models there is something interesting going on, something we discussed before. Victron themselves have a document that says their inverters comply when combined with the Ziehl anti-islanding relay. The Ziehl device itself is also on the Cape Town list. As discussed before, the Ziehl is a passive device and no anti-islanding is complete without an active component, which means that listing the device on its own (without listing the inverters that go with it) makes no sense. In addition, it is clearly a mistake that the Victron is not on the list, as it does comply. But this ought to be old news by now and isn't really the topic under discussion.

I think the point being made is that if you're going to pick a hybrid inverter, pick one that at least has some hope of being approved for grid-interactive operation. We have at least some Infini's on the list, and an explicit negative answer for the V. This may change in future, but right now I'd get the 3kva infini over the V-series. Well... I wouldn't get either cause my blood is blue.... but if I had to :-)

Perhaps it's a case of laziness? I'm guessing that since the Ziehl device is on the list, all Victron's (well, those capable, at least) qualify? But I agree, some clarity on this would help. 

[Don]

1 hour ago, SilverNodashi said:

Perhaps it's a case of laziness? I'm guessing that since the Ziehl device is on the list, all Victron's (well, those capable, at least) qualify? But I agree, some clarity on this would help. 

We might interpret it that way. Hopefully the guy doing the inspection does too. You get those tick ones that take out the list and says "The inverter is not on the approved list." Then you try and explain it to him and he thinks you are hardegat and trying to tell him how to do his job, then he closes up like a book. 

[Deonsr]

Hi guys

I am still using the outdated Watchpower monitoring software which is not very efficient.

I see on the post above there is a monitoring system from @Manie. I am not very technology advantaged but can someone guide me in the correct direction to find out more please.

[Chris-R]

5 minutes ago, Deonsr said:

Hi guys

I am still using the outdated Watchpower monitoring software which is not very efficient.

I see on the post above there is a monitoring system from @Manie. I am not very technology advantaged but can someone guide me in the correct direction to find out more please.

I really think you can ether contact @manie directly or else Chris Hobson will be a good guide for giving some advice

Ps. Deon it will be very helpful if you could update your signature with the equipment you are using. It becomes much easier for the members to help

[___]

On the original topic of balancers... I actually have a small problem. The interesting thing is, if I leave it long enough, the batteries change places after a while: The bottom half starts running higher than the top half. I'll see if I can post another picture later of that situation!

The interesting thing I learned here: Lack of proper absorption also causes inbalance. A long period on absorb also reduces the problem even without balancers.

[SilverNodashi]

47 minutes ago, Don said:

We might interpret it that way. Hopefully the guy doing the inspection does too. You get those tick ones that take out the list and says "The inverter is not on the approved list." Then you try and explain it to him and he thinks you are hardegat and trying to tell him how to do his job, then he closes up like a book. 

Perhaps, but the engineers who tick off these systems are generally clued up. One could easily argue that since the Zhiel device is on the list, the rest doesn't  matter?

[Chris Hobson]

24 minutes ago, plonkster said:

On the original topic of balancers... I actually have a small problem. The interesting thing is, if I leave it long enough, the batteries change places after a while: The bottom half starts running higher than the top half. I'll see if I can post another picture later of that situation!

The interesting thing I learned here: Lack of proper absorption also causes inbalance. A long period on absorb also reduces the problem even without balancers.

Hi Plonky this is the classic start to battery imbalances. Most inverters do not allow you to set the length of absorb period and so one has no remedy (barring balancers). By lengthening the absorb period you allow in your case the bottom battery to catch up. Now imagine you cannot lengthen the absorb period. A mid point deviation of 1.9% on a 24V system is starting to get where you need to take remedial action.

[___]

1 minute ago, Chris Hobson said:

A mid point deviation of 1.9% on a 24V system is starting to get where you need to take remedial action

Oh that is nothing. It goes over 3% for a short period. Hey, it's Ex-UPS batteries that I've had for 18 months now. When they were new they were only rated maybe 700 cycles to 50%.... :-)

[___]

Getting better now... by lunch time it should switch sides.