3 hours ago, Bobster. said:

I don't see any problem with differentiated tariffs for genuinely poor people. The current test, as far as I can determine, is that the house owner earns less than 7k per month, and that's for the lowest step of the ladder for the subsidised package. 

Combine that with City Power actively cutting off defaulters or bypassers, especially the big ones, and I can make a case for some cross subsidisation. If you income is less than 7k a month then you're really not in a good position. There are some employed people in this country earning not very much. If you earn minimum wage for 8 hours a day, 27 days a month then that's just under 6K a month. That's poor.

I meant illegal connections. I know a government employee who is illegally connected and he earns 20k take home. He uses electric heaters during winter .. an electric heater in every room. Geyser heating no problem. He is not poor 

Their transformer is always blowing up because of overload and Eskom always replaces it a couple of days.

11 hours ago, Jakac said:

I meant illegal connections. I know a government employee who is illegally connected and he earns 20k take home. He uses electric heaters during winter .. an electric heater in every room. Geyser heating no problem. He is not poor 

Their transformer is always blowing up because of overload and Eskom always replaces it a couple of days.

I can only speak of what is happening in Johannesburg, and here they are on the warpath with illegal connections and with defaulters. A problem is that they raid an area, disconnect all the illegal connections, and two days later it's all back.

See attached "COJ MEETING SCHEDULE FOR IDP BUDGET AND TARIFFS PUBLIC OUTREACH 2024"

Hopefully we can object to the ridiculous proposal to have a "Service Fee (Meter Reading)" on prepaid electricity.

MS-Teams links in the PDF

 

Meeting-Schedule-for-IDP-Budget-and-Tariffs-Public-Outreach-2024.pdf

On 2024/04/04 at 10:36 AM, system32 said:

See attached "COJ MEETING SCHEDULE FOR IDP BUDGET AND TARIFFS PUBLIC OUTREACH 2024"

Hopefully we can object to the ridiculous proposal to have a "Service Fee (Meter Reading)" on prepaid electricity.

MS-Teams links in the PDF

 

Meeting-Schedule-for-IDP-Budget-and-Tariffs-Public-Outreach-2024.pdf 117.12 kB · 1 download

Did you?

Today is the closing day for objections. One way to object is to go to the IDP session for your region. The entire executive committee is there and they will listen to objections. You get 2 minutes to say your say. Given the number of objections and suggestions they have to listen to, the time limit is necessary and they don't get into any debates there and then. But you can say pretty much what you like as long as you don't use foul languate and as long as you stick with in the two minutes.

You can email [email protected]. Be sure to identify where you live and give your account number.

On 2024/04/22 at 8:53 AM, Bobster. said:

Did you?

Today is the closing day for objections. One way to object is to go to the IDP session for your region. The entire executive committee is there and they will listen to objections. You get 2 minutes to say your say. Given the number of objections and suggestions they have to listen to, the time limit is necessary and they don't get into any debates there and then. But you can say pretty much what you like as long as you don't use foul languate and as long as you stick with in the two minutes.

You can email [email protected]. Be sure to identify where you live and give your account number.

Yep, sent email to [email protected] and also sent comment via web objection form - https://share.hsforms.com/12W3qPiCHRti63nixy5-ysw469tl

Apparently there 275,373 Prepaid Electricity meters in CoJ.

R1.59b per year extra income - maybe a bit less due to prepaid (low) indigent customers.

I’ve been informed that CoJ has ~275,373 customers on prepaid electricity.

CoJ make the process of being classified as “prepaid (low) indigent customer” difficult with a high barrier in that you need to own your own home.

This barrier results in over 90% of prepaid customers being classified as prepaid (high).

A quick calculation:

This shows that R807m per year Service Charge (meter reading fee) is just a scam.

You can store 275,373 user records in Excel or use redundant cloud services for less than R1m per year.

These figures show that CoJ have not revealed the costs and is obviously a scam and must me rejected.

Edited April 23, 20242 yr by system32

45 minutes ago, system32 said:

CoJ make the process of being classified as “prepaid (low) indigent customer” difficult with a high barrier in that you need to own your own home.

Well I can't get the facts on that, but domestic City accounts are for homeowners. Tenants are at the mercy of landlords, though I believe they can't resell electricity (they can load the actual rent). It's hard for the people who pay rent on a shack in somebody else's garden 

On 2024/04/23 at 9:05 PM, Bobster. said:

Well I can't get the facts on that, but domestic City accounts are for homeowners. Tenants are at the mercy of landlords, though I believe they can't resell electricity (they can load the actual rent). It's hard for the people who pay rent on a shack in somebody else's garden 

Seems I misunderstood the requirements to qualify for CoJ Expanded Social Package (ESP)
See https://joburg.org.za/services_/Pages/City Services/Social Package/Expanded-Social-Package0217-1439.aspx

Quote

 

Types of rebates you may qualify for: 

• Property owners qualify for subsidy on their rates, refuse, sewer, water and electricity services;
• Non-property owners or non-account holders qualify for rebates on water and electricity services.

 

Proposed pre-paid electricity prepaid (low) prepaid (high) changes:

 

Proposed Tariffs

Edited April 25, 20242 yr by system32

5 hours ago, system32 said:

Seems I misunderstood the requirements to qualify for CoJ Expanded Social Package (ESP)
See https://joburg.org.za/services_/Pages/City Services/Social Package/Expanded-Social-Package0217-1439.aspx

Proposed pre-paid electricity prepaid (low) prepaid (high) changes:

 

Proposed Tariffs

Reading this one can now see why energy consultants have for at least 5 yrs been warning us to get off the grid. Not just due to power increases from Eskom. 

@system32 Will see which political party actually has the spine to do this, is still a bit down the road and the way battery prices are coming down I may just go totally off-grid if they decide to implement it. 

I am currently using around R600 a month on prepaid, so it will increase my bill to R1100 a month. 

The ROI for disconnecting from the grid totally and buying a few more batteries and just using a generator for any shortfall starts looking a lot more appealing. 

Batteries are forecast to fall by another 30% over the next 12 months so may make sense by the time they actually try to implement the Service & Capacity charges

1 hour ago, Sc00bs said:

@system32 Will see which political party actually has the spine to do this, is still a bit down the road and the way battery prices are coming down I may just go totally off-grid if they decide to implement it. 

The fixed fees have come up several times the last few years. The first time was when Mashaba was Mayor. The fixed fee was proposed at R200 a month. The City later said that the figure had been inserted into the budget after sign off.

It was proposed again during the lockdown, but immediately cancelled as part of the City's relief package.

1 hour ago, Sc00bs said:

I am currently using around R600 a month on prepaid, so it will increase my bill to R1100 a month. 

Indeed. But you're still better off than people on the conventional tariff. Doesn't mean you shouldn't fight it though.

1 hour ago, Sc00bs said:

The ROI for disconnecting from the grid totally and buying a few more batteries and just using a generator for any shortfall starts looking a lot more appealing. 

Batteries are forecast to fall by another 30% over the next 12 months so may make sense by the time they actually try to implement the Service & Capacity charges

Question: Would you buy a house that had no electricity connection?

I get the urge to go off grid. But it's expensive, and I'm not sure it renders the property more desirable when selling time comes. 

Whatever charges are settled on will become effective July 1st.
 

We all get some relief from the City. Pen

8 hours ago, system32 said:

Types of rebates you may qualify for: 

• Property owners qualify for subsidy on their rates, refuse, sewer, water and electricity services;
• Non-property owners or non-account holders qualify for rebates on water and electricity services.

Really! Wow! Because if I rent, the City bills my landlord and he bills me. So how does the City control that? Of course he might pass concessions from the City on to me. On the other hand he may not. 

So I'm surprised to see them claiming that, and I'd bet there's a fair bit of red tape involved.

We (account holders) already get 6kl of water a month for free. My favourite game right now is trying to come in under that number each month. I did it in December and January, but then had to pay R26 for February. March... I'm on the knife edge. Depends on when they read the meter. April I should do it again.

Edited April 25, 20242 yr by Bobster.
clarity

On 2024/03/27 at 12:44 PM, system32 said:

I feel that this proposed change is unfair to prepaid customers.
1) The service charge is an administration charge for meter reading.
This is definitely not applicable to prepaid meters.

2) prepaid has no risk of default as CoJ is paid before delivering a kWh which helps with cashflow.
prepaid allows CoJ to receive finance interest in the money market or the payment.
This saving should be passed on to prepaid customers.

3) Prepaid has 3 bands and postpaid has 5 bands
4) Prepaid bands are 4% - 10.4% more expensive than postpaid.
5) The 2024/25 increase is excessive, for example A 350kWh per month prepaid increase is 1.76x more:

There is no justification for this massive increase.

OK. The budget has been finalised and there is some good news. Firstly, they are still increasing property rates, but by 1% less than originally proposed.

Secondly there will still be fixed fees on pre-paid meters but these are now R130 and R70 plus VAT, so that's come down a bit.

This is a per a local councillor this morning. I still don't have figures for the per unit cost, but if I understand him correctly he says that this will be inline with postpaid accounts.

Once the tariff tables are published we can do the sums and see if there is still a saving to be made on converting from postpaid to prepaid. But it's looking better.

Though the City needs money, so somewhere they are going to feed Paul but rob Peter to compensate. Or (as I suspect) they overcooked the proposed increases, knowing that they could allow themselves to be bargained down to what they would have settled for and look benevolent and reasonable in the process.

3 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

On 2024/03/27 at 12:44 PM, system32 said:

I feel that this proposed change is unfair to prepaid customers.
1) The service charge is an administration charge for meter reading.
This is definitely not applicable to prepaid meters.

2) prepaid has no risk of default as CoJ is paid before delivering a kWh which helps with cashflow.
prepaid allows CoJ to receive finance interest in the money market or the payment.
This saving should be passed on to prepaid customers.

3) Prepaid has 3 bands and postpaid has 5 bands
4) Prepaid bands are 4% - 10.4% more expensive than postpaid.
5) The 2024/25 increase is excessive, for example A 350kWh per month prepaid increase is 1.76x more:

There is no justification for this massive increase.

Expand  

OK. The budget has been finalised and there is some good news. Firstly, they are still increasing property rates, but by 1% less than originally proposed.

DOH! It's just occured to me what they're talking about. Some folks, usually in not very wealthy areas, still rent from the City, so it's those tenants that are getting the relief.

13 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

OK. The budget has been finalised and there is some good news. Firstly, they are still increasing property rates, but by 1% less than originally proposed.

Secondly there will still be fixed fees on pre-paid meters but these are now R130 and R70 plus VAT, so that's come down a bit.

This is a per a local councillor this morning. I still don't have figures for the per unit cost, but if I understand him correctly he says that this will be inline with postpaid accounts.

Once the tariff tables are published we can do the sums and see if there is still a saving to be made on converting from postpaid to prepaid. But it's looking better.

Though the City needs money, so somewhere they are going to feed Paul but rob Peter to compensate. Or (as I suspect) they overcooked the proposed increases, knowing that they could allow themselves to be bargained down to what they would have settled for and look benevolent and reasonable in the process.

Thanks for the update.
1) The R130 and R70+VAT on prepaid is an extra TAX that is unjustified as the prepaid r/kWh and bands are higher than postpaid.

R63.3m per month / R760m per year of additional TAX.

The concept of pre-paid is that it's a pay-as-you-go and not a mixture.
How are they going to implement this?
Will it require me to buy R230 of tax first before I can buy 1 unit or will it be added to the rates bill.
If it's on the rates bill this will be a problem for owners who rent.

>Though the City needs money, so somewhere they are going to feed Paul but rob Peter to compensate

I don't see why we (Peter) should be forced to pay for incompetence and corruption (Paul):

• Shocking levels of corruption uncovered at City Power amid allegations involving the chairman’s wife (2017)
  see https://businesstech.co.za/news/trending/157563/shocking-levels-of-corruption-uncovered-at-city-power-amid-allegations-involving-the-chairmans-wife/
• Executive who lost City Power’s R2bn to alleged corruption returns to manage R259m project (2020)
  see https://www.iol.co.za/the-star/news/executive-who-lost-city-powers-r2bn-to-alleged-corruption-returns-to-manage-r259m-project-0f3b2b97-baea-43a9-81ef-f7ebd3a22907
• South Africa: City Power Managers Appear in Court for Multimillion Rand Fraud (2017)
  see https://allafrica.com/stories/201710100831.html

Additionally CoJ is not being incentivised to be efficient or corruption free - they can just raise taxes.
For example: If CoJ had ensured that center of Johannesburg and Hillbrow and Joburg South (Rosettenville, La Rochelle), etc had been maintained and kept safe (crime free), kept clean and desirable and up-market a "world class African city" then CoJ would be getting high property rates from these these areas.  Instead they let Johannesburg degrade into a dump with reduced property values and rates and the ratepayers are now having to pay ever increasing taxes to compensate.

 

1 hour ago, system32 said:

Thanks for the update.
1) The R130 and R70+VAT on prepaid is an extra TAX that is unjustified as the prepaid r/kWh and bands are higher than postpaid.

R63.3m per month / R760m per year of additional TAX.

The concept of pre-paid is that it's a pay-as-you-go and not a mixture.
How are they going to implement this?
Will it require me to buy R230 of tax first before I can buy 1 unit or will it be added to the rates bill.
If it's on the rates bill this will be a problem for owners who rent.

This has been coming for a while and, I believe, has been implemented in Cape Town. The argument (which Eskom make as well) is that it costs just as much to provide a connection to a property with a pre-paid meter as it does for properties on a conventional tariff. COJ have tried at least three times since 2019 to introduce a flat fee for pre-paid connections. During the lockdown it was actually implemented but then immediately revoked as part of the City's social relief package.

So I can see their point on one of these charges, even though I've fought them on it. But an admin charge is unnecessary. If I don't pay they don't need to do anything. The meter will cut me off. 

I don't know how it will be implemented. I'm guessing it will be under the electricity heading on the municipal bill. 

BTW, where did you get that table from? Are the tariffs available in the public domain?

3 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

This has been coming for a while and, I believe, has been implemented in Cape Town. The argument (which Eskom make as well) is that it costs just as much to provide a connection to a property with a pre-paid meter as it does for properties on a conventional tariff. COJ have tried at least three times since 2019 to introduce a flat fee for pre-paid connections. During the lockdown it was actually implemented but then immediately revoked as part of the City's social relief package.

So I can see their point on one of these charges, even though I've fought them on it. But an admin charge is unnecessary. If I don't pay they don't need to do anything. The meter will cut me off. 

I don't know how it will be implemented. I'm guessing it will be under the electricity heading on the municipal bill. 

BTW, where did you get that table from? Are the tariffs available in the public domain?

The table users (275,373) was from someone on a WhatsApp group.
The Charges are from your post + VAT.

I don't agree with adding fixed fees to prepaid as these fees are part of the higher R/kWh.
In terms of the fixed fees, I would prefer if they just bumped up the R/kWh - which was was the old system was.
Prepaid R/kWh was higher than post-paid to cater for these fees.

Additionally the fees are not controlled by NERSA.
NERSA only regulates the R/kWh

2 hours ago, system32 said:

The table users (275,373) was from someone on a WhatsApp group.
The Charges are from your post + VAT.

I don't agree with adding fixed fees to prepaid as these fees are part of the higher R/kWh.
In terms of the fixed fees, I would prefer if they just bumped up the R/kWh - which was was the old system was.
Prepaid R/kWh was higher than post-paid to cater for these fees.

Additionally the fees are not controlled by NERSA.
NERSA only regulates the R/kWh

That's how I understand it.

Other municipalities have fixed fees, but in Johannesburg
1) They are way higher
2) Unit costs are actually on the low side 

So now those fixed fees in COJ end up really punishing people trying to keep their bills down, and become a handy way to get some more for electricity even when that pesky NERSA is saying "only so much".

How it got that way, the decision making process and when it was made (it surely must be when the Metro was formed) would be interesting. But the consequences may not be what was envisioned.

1 hour ago, Bobster. said:

That's how I understand it.

Other municipalities have fixed fees, but in Johannesburg
1) They are way higher
2) Unit costs are actually on the low side 

So now those fixed fees in COJ end up really punishing people trying to keep their bills down, and become a handy way to get some more for electricity even when that pesky NERSA is saying "only so much".

How it got that way, the decision making process and when it was made (it surely must be when the Metro was formed) would be interesting. But the consequences may not be what was envisioned.

What is really worse than sad is that CoJ are using the treasury rebate given to them for the poor to run their system without paying it over. This came out in a radio interview a week or 2 ago with one of our great power gurus. 

In a way the R230 fee does not look too far out of line compared to other munics that are also charging a service fee. Here I think Eskom direct consumers are the hardest hit but then their unit cost is lower. 

Now the councillor who speaks not until he knows now tells me that the budget didn't get sufficient votes.

So we can start this all over again in a couple of weeks. 

Sorry. 

 

Edited May 17, 20242 yr by Bobster.

On 2024/05/17 at 10:19 PM, Bobster. said:

Now the councillor who speaks not until he knows now tells me that the budget didn't get sufficient votes.

So we can start this all over again in a couple of weeks. 

Sorry.

Also heard that the budget did not get the votes - hopefully because of opposition to this prepaid service fee scam.
 

Quote

Joburg Budget Fails to Pass

Last night (15th May 2024), after many delaying tactics and calls for caucus breaks by numerous political parties, the GLU (Government of Local Unity) coalition members, broke ranks with each other and the draft 2024/25 budget failed to pass at the Budget Debate council meeting. All budget related items require 50 percent plus one of council to approved a budget.(Joburg has 270 seats meaning for any budget item to pass it requires 135 seats plus 1 i.e. 136 or more)

The GLU collective is 140 seats and is made up of the ANC/EFF/PA/GOOD/UDM/Al jama ah/PAC/ATM/AHC/AIC/APC most of them 1 seat parties in the coalition Government of Local Unity which appears to have split apart leaving residents without an approved budget.

The results are as follows:

In favour: 105
Against: 52
Abstentions: 0
EFF: Didn’t vote either way

The opposition parties did not support the budget as it didn’t speak to their communities and wards.  

You can watch the speeches on the budget vote here

https://m.youtube.com/live/AHECpyZz_W4?si=TjkWRF4TLrdBSxKl

There will have to be another Council Meeting within 7 days to try and pass the budget.

 

Edited May 20, 20242 yr by system32

37 minutes ago, system32 said:

Also heard that the budget did not get the votes - hopefully because of opposition to this prepaid service fee scam.

"Because it was not in the best interests of the citizens".

The PA broke ranks with the rest of the coalition and did not support the budget. There's also another plot to bring a motion of no confidence against the current mayor and then against his executive.

Gotta love coalition politics. 

I think citizens wield more power here than we understand. Certainly those of us living in nice middle class suburbs. There's a game to be played, with rules.

I went to the budget feedback session for my region.  Very interesting. First thing is they feed all attendees - fresh fruit from the Jhb market and bottled water. Second thing is that ALL the City departments are there so I was able to get, for example, some good information about recycling and about getting municipal trees trimmed (whether any of this translates into action remains to be seen).

But the main business. The budget. They present an overview then they start the feedback session. They call on speakers from each ward, in ward number sequence. They take about four per ward, depending on time. They just listen. They don't debate anything. They don't want repeat complaints/suggestions from a ward. Each speaker gets 2 minutes (time is displayed on a big screen) unless they start swearing, in which case the microphone is cut. (was cut)

So... there's a way to play this game. The first ward called was a poor area. They clearly understood what was going to happen, had read the budget proposal, and got themselves organised. The Residents Association mandated 4 speakers, they each raised different points, and it wasn't just "this charge was exorbitant" but also things like "you have earmarked 10 million for X but we think it would be be better spent on Y". Their chairman spoke first. I spoke to him when he was done because it was clear that he knew what was going on and I didn't. He knew the name, face and portfolio of every member of the executive. He asked me what I was going to speak about in my 2 minutes. I said "pre-paid meters and sewage". He pointed out two executives and said "those are the guys who are responsible. Look at them whilst you're speaking."

So that ward was organised and got their message across. Other wards either had no representation, or random people got up and just shouted and screamed. There were two representatives from my ward, but nothing was organised, it was just two people who went along. We could have done better.

Ward councillors are present (in person, or listening in remotely) but may not speak. This is for the community to speak. 

Some wards get some of what they want. Others just moan to each other on whatsapp.

But ultimately council approves the budget, and if enough of them can't agree then nothing gets approved. They have one more meeting this week (at which an attempt is going to be made to unseat the Mayor, which won't get much done for the budget) and then they have to shut down until national and provicincial elections are done.

Edited May 20, 20242 yr by Bobster.

23 hours ago, Bobster. said:

I think citizens wield more power here than we understand. Certainly those of us living in nice middle class suburbs. There's a game to be played, with rules.

I went to the budget feedback session for my region.  Very interesting. First thing is they feed all attendees - fresh fruit from the Jhb market and bottled water. Second thing is that ALL the City departments are there so I was able to get, for example, some good information about recycling and about getting municipal trees trimmed (whether any of this translates into action remains to be seen).

But the main business. The budget. They present an overview then they start the feedback session. They call on speakers from each ward, in ward number sequence. They take about four per ward, depending on time. They just listen. They don't debate anything. They don't want repeat complaints/suggestions from a ward. Each speaker gets 2 minutes (time is displayed on a big screen) unless they start swearing, in which case the microphone is cut. (was cut)

So... there's a way to play this game. The first ward called was a poor area. They clearly understood what was going to happen, had read the budget proposal, and got themselves organised. The Residents Association mandated 4 speakers, they each raised different points, and it wasn't just "this charge was exorbitant" but also things like "you have earmarked 10 million for X but we think it would be be better spent on Y". Their chairman spoke first. I spoke to him when he was done because it was clear that he knew what was going on and I didn't. He knew the name, face and portfolio of every member of the executive. He asked me what I was going to speak about in my 2 minutes. I said "pre-paid meters and sewage". He pointed out two executives and said "those are the guys who are responsible. Look at them whilst you're speaking."

So that ward was organised and got their message across. Other wards either had no representation, or random people got up and just shouted and screamed. There were two representatives from my ward, but nothing was organised, it was just two people who went along. We could have done better.

Ward councillors are present (in person, or listening in remotely) but may not speak. This is for the community to speak. 

Some wards get some of what they want. Others just moan to each other on whatsapp.

But ultimately council approves the budget, and if enough of them can't agree then nothing gets approved. They have one more meeting this week (at which an attempt is going to be made to unseat the Mayor, which won't get much done for the budget) and then they have to shut down until national and provicincial elections are done.

PS: This system of feedback sessions after the first draft budget is not a Jo'burg thing, it is a national thing. All municipalities are bound to hold such sessions.

Got this earlier; haven't seen it validated anywhere yet but apparently approved budget stuff.

 

Residential pre-paid electricity meters (high users): R200 (R70 service charge + R130 network charge). This was going to be around R500, but was reduced. Pre-paid tariffs will also only go up by the standard increase of 12.72% instead of the proposed 18%. 

 

Edited May 23, 20242 yr by Zombie

OK. City has passed a budget 🍾. The fixed fee remains 230 (which is down from the original nearly 600), for "high" (IE not indigent) users. Note that the proposed adjustments to the tariff steps did not go ahead. 

Unit costs are still to be approved by NERSA.

In the "budget book" that is attached to the article you will find proposed pre- and post-paid tariffs. The fixed charges are final, the unit costs still to be approved by NERSA. I would think there's still a worthwhile saving to be had by switching to pre-paid, but factor in the cost of conversion and take a long term view. 

 

https://businesstech.co.za/news/energy/773336/r230-per-month-blow-to-prepaid-electricity-users-in-joburg/