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Victron with LifePo - low cut out and ruined battery?

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I have a Victron Multiplus 12/1600/70 connected to a Champion LiFePo4 200Ah. The object is to provide uninterrupted power to a small apartment. So next step to wire it into the DB. 

However when testing the battery discharged all the way to 8V in a single night (the mains power interruption was longer than expected) Now the battery is either ruined or in sleep-mode and I cannot fix it. I have another battery but too scared to use it now.

How do I guard against this in future??

I ordered a Victron 12/24V-65A Battery Protection unit but how do I wire it?

13 hours ago, Clivevan said:

I have a Victron Multiplus 12/1600/70 connected to a Champion LiFePo4 200Ah. The object is to provide uninterrupted power to a small apartment. So next step to wire it into the DB. 

However when testing the battery discharged all the way to 8V in a single night (the mains power interruption was longer than expected) Now the battery is either ruined or in sleep-mode and I cannot fix it. I have another battery but too scared to use it now.

How do I guard against this in future??

I ordered a Victron 12/24V-65A Battery Protection unit but how do I wire it?

An urgent consideration. @MeepMoop

This protector is great to switch off the inverter in time but then you cannot send current from the inverter back to the battery to charge. 

IT USES A ONE WAY SWITCH. 

You need 2 off them as per the Victron manual if you want both ways to work without damage. 

EDIT: One way switch was perhaps incorrect. It MIGHT work but Victron clearly states in 1 direction only. My boer maak 'n plan method would be to use a SUITABLE 230V AC relay that picks up when there is grid to bridge the 2 contacts to allow charging. When the grid is off the battery will discharge in the normal way through the battery protector.

Edited by Scorp007
Added more content and solution for 2 way power through battery protector

You don't need this when you have a multiplus, you can configure the multiplus to disconnect itself at a set voltage. (using VictronConnect or VEconfigure and a USB interface)

Edited by P1000

  • Author
16 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

An urgent consideration. 

This protector is great to switch off the inverter in time but then you cannot send current from the inverter back to the battery to charge. 

IT USES A ONE WAY SWITCH. 

You need 2 off them as per the Victron manual if you want both ways to work without damage. 

Yes this was my concern. It is supposed to be a low discharge protection device but it WILL NOT WORK with an inverter.  So I am not even sure what the point of it is - what is the purpose if you cannot connect it to an inverter???

  • Author
13 minutes ago, P1000 said:

You don't need this when you have a multiplus, you can configure the multiplus to disconnect itself at a set voltage. (using VictronConnect or VEconfigure and a USB interface)

I am afraid you have lost me. What is:  using VictronConnect or VEconfigure and a USB interface

4 hours ago, Clivevan said:

Nope - that is for DC loads. I do not even have those. ONLY an inverter and evidently you cannot use it with an inverter. 

You said you bought a battery protection unit. But don't know how to wire it. I sent the manual for it. don't understand your point .😐

It is complete overkill, but if you already have the battery protect unit, you can use the DC load output to run a relay connected to the remote switch port on the inverter to change operation mode between 'on' and 'charge'.

  • Author
55 minutes ago, JustinSchoeman said:

It is complete overkill, but if you already have the battery protect unit, you can use the DC load output to run a relay connected to the remote switch port on the inverter to change operation mode between 'on' and 'charge'.

I am afraid you lost me.

  • Author

So I have now scoured the Multiplus data sheet and manual. 

There is no indication that this product has to be programmed in any way. 

There is no indication that it requires additional low discharge protection.  

The low discharge setting is not mentioned other than that low discharge protection is included.

There is no indication that the low discharge protection is illusionary or possibly places your battery at risk. 

The default settings given are fine for most batteries including mine. 

The result is that I have a ruined/non-functional battery and seemingly an inverter not fit for purpose (I am too scared to connect it to my remaining healthy battery). 

My next step is to consult the legal implications - the Consumer Protection Act here in South Africa does not permit this kind of misleading advertising nor the sale of goods that cause you damage.

To get the battery to the supplier is a one-day exercise. 

I suppose I start there.

A most disappointing experience.

1) Please see the other thread you started.  It is VERY unlikely that your battery is damaged.  It will be in an over-discharge protect state.  With the discharge MOS open, you will only see leakage current/voltage on the output terminals - not the actual battery voltage. Unfortunately, smart chargers are confused by this, and refuse to charge batteries in this state. Just connect a dumb charger (eg most automotive battery chargers), and it should restart the battery in an hour or two.

2) From the Victron manual:

image.png.44f397bc4953d2e69fec4d8f3cfd50d4.png

The wiring diagram you sent in the other post has the 'hint' to use a fused DC out line to signal the inverter.  That is for a different inverter model though. But the same technique should work. Connect a suitably rated relay with the common terminal to the middle terminal, NO to the left terminal and NC to the right terminal. Power the coil (through a fuse) from the DC out of the battery protector.

When the battery protector thinks the battery is OK, it powers the DC out terminal, which switches the relay on and closes the NO-common terminals (left to middle on the multi, turning it on). And when battery protector goes off, so does the relay, and NC-common is closed (right to middle on the multi, setting it to charger only mode).

 

9 hours ago, P1000 said:

You don't need this when you have a multiplus, you can configure the multiplus to disconnect itself at a set voltage. (using VictronConnect or VEconfigure and a USB interface)

That's how I also have it. The same as nearly all adjustable solar inverters. Deeply discharged batteries should be easy to prevent. 

  • Author
3 hours ago, JustinSchoeman said:

1) Please see the other thread you started.  It is VERY unlikely that your battery is damaged.  It will be in an over-discharge protect state.  With the discharge MOS open, you will only see leakage current/voltage on the output terminals - not the actual battery voltage. Unfortunately, smart chargers are confused by this, and refuse to charge batteries in this state. Just connect a dumb charger (eg most automotive battery chargers), and it should restart the battery in an hour or two.

2.

 

OK so the good news is that my battery may be OK but the Victron is confused.  Unfortunately I do not have a dumb charger - I have something like this mind you (PSA008 https://www.elparautoelectrical.co.za/product/pro-user-13-8v-dc-8amp-smart-battery-charger-with-desulphation-function-psa008/ ) But it is given as a "smart" charger which I presume I was dumb enough to fall for?

Your 2nd point appears correct but I honestly am not in a position to implement that. But thank you for giving the advice - I will have to hand this project over to an electrician.

  • Author
16 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

That's how I also have it. The same as nearly all adjustable solar inverters. Deeply discharged batteries should be easy to prevent. 

My problem is " (using VictronConnect or VEconfigure and a USB interface)

What are those?? And why does it not come as part of the unit? How is one to use this darn thing without it? (or with it for that matter)

This is most perplexing and I am getting ever more convinced illegal. Victron is selling a non-functional item which you can only really use if you acquire a host of other items which are neither given as required nor priced. 

  • Author
5 hours ago, MeepMoop said:

You said you bought a battery protection unit. But don't know how to wire it. I sent the manual for it. don't understand your point .😐

My understanding is now that it CANNOT be wired. You CANNOT use a Victron battery protection unit with an inverter - it is used only on DC currents where there is no load running the opposite direction (charging). The manual provides the wiring for the DC loads and I do not even have DC loads - ONLY the inverter connected to the battery. So maybe we are talking past each other? Or perhaps I still do not understand how to connect the battery protect to the inverter?  But from what I read on this thread and also other threads on the Victron site it is an absolute no-go unless you perform special electrical gymnastics - again see the advice on this thread.

Apologies if I was uncouth - just a bit frustrated here.🤦‍♂️

1 hour ago, Clivevan said:

My understanding is now that it CANNOT be wired. You CANNOT use a Victron battery protection unit with an inverter - it is used only on DC currents where there is no load running the opposite direction (charging). The manual provides the wiring for the DC loads and I do not even have DC loads - ONLY the inverter connected to the battery. So maybe we are talking past each other? Or perhaps I still do not understand how to connect the battery protect to the inverter?  But from what I read on this thread and also other threads on the Victron site it is an absolute no-go unless you perform special electrical gymnastics - again see the advice on this thread.

Apologies if I was uncouth - just a bit frustrated here.🤦‍♂️

No worries. I think we were talking past each other yeah. I didn't understand the Battery protection unit 

1 hour ago, Clivevan said:

My understanding is now that it CANNOT be wired. You CANNOT use a Victron battery protection unit with an inverter - it is used only on DC currents where there is no load running the opposite direction (charging). The manual provides the wiring for the DC loads and I do not even have DC loads - ONLY the inverter connected to the battery. So maybe we are talking past each other? Or perhaps I still do not understand how to connect the battery protect to the inverter?  But from what I read on this thread and also other threads on the Victron site it is an absolute no-go unless you perform special electrical gymnastics - again see the advice on this thread.

Apologies if I was uncouth - just a bit frustrated here.🤦‍♂️

AFAIK your inverter is a DC load. Without the battery the inverter will not work. Nothing new. It works with an inverter but not an inverter/charger like the Multiplus or trolleys. 

So I can just say as a battery protector to prevent deep discharge it works fantastic. I am using on my old lead acids connected to a brick inverter. Luckily it is an inverter only and I use an external charger as well as PV to charge the battery directly. 

This then fits in with the Victron way. 

Your comments on Victron it is what it is. Made up of all the building blocks that make up a system. Not for me at the price or even at a much lower price. I am a value guy and that perhaps says it all. 

 

Edited by Scorp007

  • Author
6 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

AFAIK your inverter is a DC load. Without the battery the inverter will not work. Nothing new. It works with an inverter but not an inverter/charger like the Multiplus or trolleys. 

So I can just say as a battery protector to prevent deep discharge it works fantastic. I am using on my old lead acids connected to a brick inverter. Luckily it is an inverter only and I use an external charger as well as PV to charge the battery directly. 

This then fits in with the Victron way. 

Your comments on Victron it is what it is. Made up of all the building blocks that make up a system. Not for me at the price or even at a much lower price. I am a value guy and that perhaps says it all. 

 

Well yes  the Victron way  is starting to give me 2nd thoughts about them. You do say it (the battery protector) works fantastic (but only once one gets the thing up and running which seems to be very problematic in my case) 

I am still not sure about the value proposition. Almost every cheap piece of electronics of this nature (inverter/battery/charger/regulator/trolley) that I have ever purchased lasted between zero (broken out the box) and 6 months.  

So I am becoming like a cornered animal here . . . 

I will return the battery and ask their advice on how to programme the Multiplus - it appears I need more bits and bobs from Victron to programme it but I do not know what at this time.

I will return the battery protect units and see if I can get the correct link-ups to programme the Multi.

Thanks for the assistence.

12 hours ago, Clivevan said:

I will have to hand this project over to an electrician.

Most definitely.

There is a good chance that having the equipment (both the Victron kit and the batteries) installed by someone who is not an accredited installer will lead to the warranties not being honoured. Do not underestimate the value of a quality installation job. If you pay so much for the kit, don't try save cost on the installation and programming of it.

  • Author
1 hour ago, 0012 said:

Most definitely.

There is a good chance that having the equipment (both the Victron kit and the batteries) installed by someone who is not an accredited installer will lead to the warranties not being honoured. Do not underestimate the value of a quality installation job. If you pay so much for the kit, don't try save cost on the installation and programming of it.

I have in fact had it installed by an electrician but that is a gripe for another day - electricians do NOT know squat about solar/inverters etc UNLESS they specialise in it. Even more important then for Victron to make VERY clear what you are supposed to do and to get.

 

  • Author

perhaps someone can help with this. Appearantly I need

a MK3-USB (VE.Bus to USB) interface, and a RJ45 UTP cable.

The MK3 I can identify on the internet. eg here https://www.livestainable.co.za/product/victron-energy-interface-mk3-usb-ve-bus-to-usb/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA6fafBhC1ARIsAIJjL8lmPRunybm-xG67138O0rDf3ZwsA7SUeBK1ff3UF-WqVq7d1LhG6yAaAidrEALw_wcB

the RJ45 comes in a profusion of configurations and I am not sure - can somebody refer me to the correct product?

49 minutes ago, Clivevan said:

the RJ45 comes in a profusion of configurations and I am not sure - can somebody refer me to the correct product?

RJ45 is the technical name for a plain old network cable. Yes the one you use between your computer and the fibre router. Just use one of those between the mk3 interface and the multi.

4 hours ago, Clivevan said:

I have in fact had it installed by an electrician but that is a gripe for another day - electricians do NOT know squat about solar/inverters etc UNLESS they specialise in it. Even more important then for Victron to make VERY clear what you are supposed to do and to get.

 

Yes very true. Unless an electrician learns something about solar it might not be the right guy for the job. 

Accredited guys have a lower risk. 

Having read your posts I have a motto I always read the manual before I even buy something I have never used. It does help but one can still miss vital information. The tech is just changing so fast one cannot only work on comments or opinion which is mostly not advice. Advice is what you get when you pay a guy for his/her time. 

We see a lot of problems people have and it stems down to the actual setup or configuration than the equipment themselves. 

Edited by Scorp007

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