9 minutes ago, Gabriël said:

not in the pauline sense

Too far away from the windows...

37 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Too far away from the windows...

although that chap made it in the end... for most who nod off there is no such hope, it is but a reflection of their nature - worst of all we pay them to do it

2 hours ago, plonkster said:

So my point is that we will need to do ALL of the suggested things. So that would be:

I agree with all of your suggestions but I think CR should also put his foot down and get rid of all the SOEs. It is unrealistic to assume that our politicians will ever be able to efficiently run huge complex companies and keep their fingers out of the cookie jar  

1 minute ago, Fuenkli said:

get rid of all the SOEs

That suggestion goes back to 1999, Mbeki era. The unions objected (as they do now). And the whole thing just stopped dead after that.

We either need the unions on board, or we need someone who is willing to offend them. I think CR is not that guy. He is ex-Union himself.

The other possibility is a practical ultimatum: When you can tell the unions, it is either half of you or (in 6 months) three quarters of you. Your move.

Best case scenario if you're going this way: Something small needs to fail. Like the SABC. Just so that there is a practical example on the table. SAA would also be a good candidate. But this remains dangerous: The undoing of even the smallest one could bring the others tumbling.

1 minute ago, plonkster said:

could bring the others tumbling

what we have to get to grips with is what are we talking about when we refer to 'falling' and 'tumbling' etc - i proffer that those institutions have all but ceased to be de facto but not de jure,  this becomes important when deciding on whether to emigrate or not. in other words, at what temperature of the water must you get out, or will you just get accustomed to the higher temp.... remember the boiling point is only determined by altitude above [or below] sea level 🙂

16 minutes ago, Gabriël said:

de facto but not de jure,

Dude, I know what you mean but others might have to google that 🙂 De-facto means something is the case in reality, whereas de jure means it is a rule. It's a bit like that old theory and practice joke.

So the CAN-bus protocol used by LG batteries is the de facto standard for battery communications (ie it panned out that way in practice), but there is no official document stating that this is the standard.

So what you are saying in layman's terms is that these institution already exist more on paper than in practice.

Edit: Put differently, de-facto means "as pertaining to the facts", de-jure means "as required by the law" 🙂

Edited June 25, 20197 yr by plonkster

48 minutes ago, plonkster said:

So what you are saying in layman's terms is that these institution already exist more on paper than in practice.

in short we can state that eskom, although it still is limping along, is for all practical purposes a gonner as it has been raped beyond recognition. i use the verb raped not lightly. this brings me back to what someone alluded to earlier, everybody is being investigated by all sorts of commissions and special attack judicial bodies BUT NOBODY HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO TRIAL NEVERMIND FOUND GUILTY. yet the bodies of the victims keep piling up - reminds me of the conduct of some men in gibeah in judges 19.

5 hours ago, plonkster said:

So my point is that we will need to do ALL of the suggested things. So that would be:

So working it from the "other" side, SA / Cyril has absolutely NO chance of sorting Eskom out?

 

5 hours ago, plonkster said:

1. Retrench a very large percentage of the workers. I mean like 30% at least, probably more. A large portion of these would have to come from management, because Eskom is top heavy.

Unions will fight the retrenchments every step of the way using strikes, no?

5 hours ago, plonkster said:

2. Increase the price of electricity. Yes, we may not like that, but out electricity is STILL cheap. It's expensive for coal-generated electricity though, so this will have to go hand-in-hand with a concerted move to other sources. The higher price makes it profitable for IPPs.

Increases will be thrown "out" as the "poor" will suffer more.
And then we have like Soweto, where the people / Munic simply do not pay?

5 hours ago, plonkster said:

3. Split Eskom into generation and distribution. This is far from the silver bullet some think it is. Distribution can likely be made profitable fairly quickly, but the bulk of the problem is on the generation side. Again, this goes hand in hand with bringing in IPPs.

The Unions said they will fight this all the way, strikes and possibly destruction of Eskom assets?

5 hours ago, plonkster said:

4. The single shareholder (the government, aka the taxpayer indirectly) takes over a part of the debt. Essentially, this is like using money from your own home loan to bail out your brother who is about to lose his car. You use your own good credit to save him from his bad credit. There are limits to how much of this you can do before it affects your own credit.

Yes, I believe SA can bar two thoughts:
1) Every 5 years there are elections. If the party that goes down this route is changed, say EEF comes into power, then they will stop "paying".
2) SA is not growing, so we are slipping backwards as we speak?

5 hours ago, plonkster said:

5. Allow cities to procure their own power from IPPs and invest in their own generation infrastructure.

Buying from anyone else bar Eskom is also a contentious matter in that it could be seen as taking "profits / jobs" away from Eskom?

5 hours ago, plonkster said:

6. Now, hopefully all these moves inspire confidence in the economy and the exchange rate improves. This makes imports cheaper, makes fuel cheaper, and hopefully helps to improve profitability of the whole plan, plus it relieves pressure from the taxpayer.

Now that is absolutely a hope we can have, work for.
Eskom must cover costs, dropping prices after loans has been settled, Eskom should not make a "profit".

5 hours ago, plonkster said:

7. This is where I think things will go wrong: Crack down on government corruption. The point here is to free up a money stream to get out of debt. If your "agents" are just going to steal the money as soon as it becomes freed up... then we just end up a decade later with the same problem... and even less money.

This is blocked every step of the way it seems to me. Fall guys / gals are taking the fall, skirting the true question: Pay back the money!?

5 hours ago, plonkster said:

So I tend to look at this in reverse: Will we see CR and kie actually PROSECUTE anyone. That was the biggest thing that was missing from SONA. If he got up and said "we're coming for you" and actually put his money where his mouth is... that would make me trust him on all the other stuff. I kinda understand why it is not happening: The ANC is still too divided. I don't know what is needed to get rid of this factionalism, because we don't have another decade to get rid of them, we'll have to work with them.

It seems CR is being blocked by the devil himself.

 

The reason why I asked the question in reverse was because CR's SONA was about a new city, fast trains, and not really about the above 7 points. Selling a dream to SA without Eskom and the debt addressed, is not a good start for him.

Edited June 25, 20197 yr by Guest

Look at these graphs ... tell me how SA, under the ANC, can get on top of this?

Disintegrating State Companies Imperil South Africa's Finances

As a matter of fact, show me ANY party / leader in SA, who can drive this problem to a successful completion?

Edited June 25, 20197 yr by Guest

13 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

As a matter of fact, show me ANY party / leader in SA, who can drive this problem to a successful completion?

the rhetorical question re the eskom woes, and for that matter all south african institutions, has been well addressed here.

a lot of solutions have also been suggested, yet we all know that the wisdom of the forumites here as well as others will not be heeded as long as politicians who's pledge to serve the people is but a flimsy facade behind which they egregiously stuff themselves with the riches of others - the basic legal definition of the latter is stealing - it also goes by other, more 'acceptable' terms like empowerment.

the vast majority of folks are lulled into the belief that the situation has to be 'accepted' and is indeed being actively addressed as per mentioned SONA - which on closer scrutiny is nothing more than a pie-in-the-sky wish-list even devoid of some very important issues regarding the curtailment of corruption... it could also be stated that the 'promises' of huge gas fields next to the coast - which did not turn out at all - are in essence very descriptive of the speech and political conduct per se - gas.

complaining without offering viable solutions is unfortunately also one of my weak spots, so i have meditated on how these situations have been handled in the past and should be handled according to God whom we read is in charge also of rulers - lets have a look:

romans 13:1 "LET EVERY person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities. For there is no authority except from God [by His permission, His sanction], and those that exist do so by God’s appointment." AMP

- eish, that's not the kind of news we like to hear, but now for the cherry on the cake and the actual solution

"FIRST OF all, then, I admonish and urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be offered on behalf of all men, For kings and all who are in positions of authority or high responsibility, that [outwardly] we may pass a quiet and undisturbed life [and inwardly] a peaceable one in all godliness and reverence and seriousness in every way." 1 timothy 2:1&2, AMP.

there are caveats especially as to our religious freedom, but we are not fully there yet; the bottom line is a Christian is a valuable asset to any government 🙂
take heart gentlemen!

10 minutes ago, Gabriël said:

"LET EVERY person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities.

..., but we are not fully there yet; the bottom line is a Christian is a valuable asset to any government 🙂
take heart gentlemen!

So all we can do is pray and be good citizens under the ANC and probably EFF sooner than later? 🙂 

There is no party / leader in SA today who can drive SA's financial problems to a successful fix ito what was stolen / nor bring the economy back up to speed.

It will take decades to fix / recoup the monies stolen and every 5 years the powers in charge change / can change - so maybe a pressi sits for 10 years IF s[he] keeps the factions under control.

And then we have the unions ... the "believing" voters ... 

I view it so:
Auditing firms where implicated in this fiasco. So a few heads roll, few cents where paid back ... gmpf ... that is only on what they where caught on.
ALL the Banks knew monies went in and out of SA, changed hands in SA, large sums, they did nothing till one day ... they made money as long as they could.
SARS whom has all access, closed down select departments, let people go who came close to big issues.
And the Reserve Bank, who knows what goes in and out of SA ... silence.

Doing it all so blatantly, non-caring, little kids in a free for all sweet shop with no adults ... it is now so huge and so deep seated that I don't think "anyone / they" can get even get the tiniest portion of their collective intellect around it. If you do not understand the problem, how can you cannot fix it?

And it is NOT going to get better.
And I predict that CR will not see the end of his term ... the factions will take him out like Mbeki ... or he will be but a figure head.
And there is no-one to take his place other than the dregs left behind.

EDIT: I HOPE I AM WRONG!!!

Edited June 25, 20197 yr by Guest

4 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

EDIT: I HOPE I AM WRONG!!!

are we ever wright 🤣

37 minutes ago, Gabriël said:

are we ever wright 🤣

Yes, we are workers, some of us are Wright ... wright - worker or shaper of wood. Later it became any occupational worker for example a shipwright is a person who builds ships and is used as a British family name. 😋

There are lots of people in the Good Book that where right ... when they followed instructions. 😉

8 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

when they followed instructions.

i.e. obey My commands 😀

interesting how most of the secular world just 'love' morality as it pertains to themselves [especially stuff like 'you shall not murder/steal'] but when it comes to recognizing the law giver they tend to ascribe it to natural processes - call it evolution - which is driven by the motor of 'survival of the fittest' which by necessity is driven by the motor of you must kill the weaker 

🤨🤔😬

You know what Gabriël, this makes sense for what is happening in SA's politics, the blatant and rampart raping of SA:

5 minutes ago, Gabriël said:

... which by necessity is driven by the motor of you must kill the weaker.

Zuma is surviving, his cronies too, the "strong" wiping out the "weak" aka SA.

These three articles this morning - I am losing hope in CR ... as I said before, he KNEW what was potting with Zuma, ja ja he said he played a long game, but did he?

See nicely summarized who was appointed to Parly by CR ... same as when he kept quiet on Zuma whilst working WITH Zuma

More and more titbits here and there about the State Pension fund and the usage thereof, like SANRAL, Eskom / SAA next?
The Road accident fund had lots of cash, and now?
And SASRIA and all their funds ... ?

And NOW I understand a bit better why SAPS is not doing too well in the WC ... top brass infiltrated, on purpose? Or just comrade deployments?

We all are so caught up in life, earning a living, paying bills, that bit by bit the majority of SA is being robbed and raped by a minuscule small and well placed group of extremely powerful men and woman, killing, from their perspective, the "weak" i.e. SA.

2 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I am losing hope in CR ...

we just have to look at his track record... most of us on this forum be embarrassed or lying to call someone like that a real friend; and remember he is a billionaire and most of his [share] assets are NOT local!!!

10 hours ago, Gabriël said:

romans 13:1 "LET EVERY person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities. For there is no authority except from God [by His permission, His sanction], and those that exist do so by God’s appointment." AMP

I think it is important to remember context. He is writing to the Romans and he is answering a question of theirs. One might imagine that there were still some residual anti-Roman sentiment left (remember, many of them were hoping that the Romans would be overthrown and that a new political dawn would arrive), and Paul is essentially saying "don't rock the boat, peace is worth something... in as much as the state enforces the same order, you should obey them".

Of course this has been construed as a requirement that the state should be blindly obeyed (which seems absurd, right?), but Thomas Aquinas answered this nicely: Such obedience is conditional on whether the state is actually acting within their mandate (aka authority).

25 minutes ago, Gabriël said:

which is driven by the motor of 'survival of the fittest

Along with my very many other interests, this kind of philosophy is one. One should be careful how you say things (this is not criticism, just me trying to keep this on a level of some kind). I think it is true that pure unguided social evolution cannot explain morality. As one well known Indian apologist put it: In some cultures we love our neighbour, in others we eat them. Which one would you prefer? All morality requires a certain level of dogma (here used in its non-pejorative archaic definition): It requires that you accept certain things unquestioningly. This leads to a kind of divide between epistemology (what people believe) and ontology (whether they understand where it comes from). It is perfectly possible to believe healthy things while differing wildly on where they come from.

What I am suggesting is that we need to reinforce a healthy set of beliefs (eg that theft is bad, that love for my neighbour -- ubuntu -- is good, and so forth), and that such a thing will be good for everyone, even if I think their explanation of WHY that is good is a little lacking 🙂

Eskom has no chance when this repeating saga keeps on coming up, over and over, Gordhan has no power ... he is but a puppet, no?

The latest PIC drama ... PIC to act against staff over R4bn Ayo deal

With all of that and more going on, what chance does Eskom have of getting those "billions" ... and from where? 

 

1 minute ago, Gabriël said:

... he is a billionaire and most of his [share] assets are NOT local!!!

Maybe he is part and parcel of the drive to rip rape plunder SA apart, just a whole lot more eloquently than Zuma an Co's ... therein him not moving "too hard" and the factions?

What CR said at the last SONA makes NO sense, magic cities and carpets, sorry, "trains".
By appointing people in Parly who is in serious doubt.
Keeping the lid on all the skeletons he knows of?
Source of some of his campaign funds ... 

Is CR played us all, like a absolute master?

Where are the reports by the engineers re Eskom's state that Gordhan said was being done months ago?

 

Point I'm aiming for in the last few posts: Is there a CHANCE that it all is the last dregs of the Zuma reign coming to light, and it is being fixed very very slowly?

Eskom will have no more woes?

Or is CR, just like the Zuma camp, also playing us all like a violin, eloquent and with the utmost finesse?

3 minutes ago, plonkster said:

What I am suggesting is that we need to reinforce a healthy set of beliefs (eg that theft is bad, that love for my neighbour -- ubuntu -- is good, and so forth), and that such a thing will be good for everyone, even if I think their explanation of WHY that is good is a little lacking 🙂

As much as I agree, you also said it will take time to change peoples thinking?

And it is said that you cannot preach the Gospel to hungry people? I extend that to Ubuntu. You cannot have Ubuntu if people are hungry and desperate.

Keep in mind the record number of youths today facing record levels of unemployment, of no chance of employment.

2 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

You cannot have Ubuntu if people are hungry and desperate. 

Right.

So to summarise. The answer won't be just one thing, it would have to be a comprehensive plan that covers many aspects simultaneously and targets people's hearts as much as it targets their economic reality. It will take a long time. And the reset button can be hit at any time.

🙂

 

1 minute ago, plonkster said:

The answer won't be just one thing, it would have to be a comprehensive plan that covers many aspects simultaneously and targets people's hearts as much as it targets their economic reality. It will take a long time. And the reset button can be hit at any time.

Yes, we agree totally.

But do you think the current situation, next 5, 10-20 years, leaves hope for that?

Who do you see will drive it?

2 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

But do you think the current situation, next 5, 10-20 years, leaves hope for that? 

Who do you see will drive it? 

Next 5... nope. 10 years is a long time in politics, so maybe. The Messiah hasn't arrived yet though. Maybe CR is just a leading prophet or something... 🙂

In the mean time, carrot and stick stuff. Is the stick large enough yet that I want to move? No. Is the carrot big enough? No. So we sit and wait 🙂

11 minutes ago, plonkster said:

The Messiah hasn't arrived yet though.

Seeing what goes on all over the world ito record storms, flooding, antibiotic resistant strains of all manner of bad-ass blooming, Ebola refusing to be conquered, new measel outbreaks in the USA, earthquake swarms, volcano's rumbling more, crops being decimated by rain, politics getting seriously skewed, mass movements of people all over the world ... it is all written. 

People are getting antsy all over the world.

11 minutes ago, plonkster said:

So we sit and wait 🙂

Same here BUT where to go is to is getting more and more complicated and difficult.

Even your beloved NAM. I have a new client there. In chatting yesterday he said the Gov there is taking strain having run out of funds to stimulate the economy more.

Problems are all over and everywhere, some just ahead of the curve, but we are all interlinked today. 

Edited June 26, 20197 yr by Guest

11 minutes ago, plonkster said:

10 years is a long time in politics, so maybe.

I agree, but here is the question: WHO? Who can lead SA to fix it all, drive Ubuntu, create jobs because Eskom is fixed and the economy is growing?

Something to lighten the mood. To get on this stage, man, respect to Ndlovu Youth Choir!!!