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Axpert 5K wont cold boot?


Adagio

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Hi guys!

I have an Axpert 5KVA unit and it just doesn't want to cold boot.

No matter if the battery is fully charged or not. No mattwr if load is present ot not. I Cant get it to start up if the voltage from eskom isn't present first.

 

I get this screen for a few seconds and it dies.

Once mains is restored it works perfectly.

 

I know my fans are wrong could that be an issue? I couldn't find 80mm PWM fans at Mantech. So I replaced the dead one with a standard non PWM fan.

I know they limit the outputbut they shouldn't just not turn on at all?

20230507_085150.jpg

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9 minutes ago, Adagio said:

Hi guys!

I have an Axpert 5KVA unit and it just doesn't want to cold boot.

No matter if the battery is fully charged or not. No mattwr if load is present ot not. I Cant get it to start up if the voltage from eskom isn't present first.

 

I get this screen for a few seconds and it dies.

Once mains is restored it works perfectly.

 

I know my fans are wrong could that be an issue? I couldn't find 80mm PWM fans at Mantech. So I replaced the dead one with a standard non PWM fan.

I know they limit the outputbut they shouldn't just not turn on at all?

20230507_085150.jpg

Is it a 4 pin fan? . If so its pwm but one of the pins are rotational speed feedback function, so yes the inverter detects operation of fans and will switch off at startup if that evaluation fails. 

Wonder what is that NS code displayed? 

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26 minutes ago, BritishRacingGreen said:

Is it a 4 pin fan? . If so its pwm but one of the pins are rotational speed feedback function, so yes the inverter detects operation of fans and will switch off at startup if that evaluation fails. 

Wonder what is that NS code displayed? 

I have no idea. I have never been able to figure it out.

I should just order the right fans. They are on takealot

 

Edit: No the ones on takealot are not PWM.

Edited by Adagio
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I have the same problem with my 5.6K MK IV 48V inverter. I cannot boot up the inverter with the battery first. My Playtech UP5000 goes into fault mode immediately if I switch on the battery. For some reason the battery see the inverter as a dead short I think. Only once Grid power is available and the inverter is booted up, can I switch on the battery.

The only way you can do it is to disconnect the batteries from the inverter. Pull the fuses at the fuse disconnect. Then boot up the batteries. Then slam the fuse disconnect closed. The inverter will boot up and do the battery check for about 3 seconds, then connect the battery to the inverter. I have not tried booting up the inverter with connecting solar panel first. Disconnect all loads first. That might also work to get the inverter up in running first. 

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13 minutes ago, Don said:

I have the same problem with my 5.6K MK IV 48V inverter. I cannot boot up the inverter with the battery first. My Playtech UP5000 goes into fault mode immediately if I switch on the battery. For some reason the battery see the inverter as a dead short I think. Only once Grid power is available and the inverter is booted up, can I switch on the battery.

The only way you can do it is to disconnect the batteries from the inverter. Pull the fuses at the fuse disconnect. Then boot up the batteries. Then slam the fuse disconnect closed. The inverter will boot up and do the battery check for about 3 seconds, then connect the battery to the inverter. I have not tried booting up the inverter with connecting solar panel first. Disconnect all loads first. That might also work to get the inverter up in running first. 

I have that same problem because my battery is too small for the inverter. But that's a different problem. I solved that with a pushbutton in my fuse box and a resister to slowly charge the caps in the inverter.

 

It's not good for the caps to "slam the fuses closed"

Caps appear as a dead short if they're discharged and are suddenly charged

 

Edit: added a sketch of the solution

IMG_20230507_095026_265.jpg

Edited by Adagio
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9 minutes ago, Don said:

For some reason the battery see the inverter as a dead short I think.

Even if you soft start the Pylon via its on-off switch, which precharges the bus caps on the inverter? 

You can put a 60W filament globe over the open fuse, let it pre charge the caps, remove globe and close fuse. 

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6 hours ago, BritishRacingGreen said:

Wonder what is that NS code displayed? 

That's not NS, that's patched firmware showing MS. All 7 segment renderings of an M are awful; Weber decided (and I agree) that this is the least worst. Factory firmware shows HS for master. You're supposed to imagine the top bar as slightly bent down in the middle, like this: image.png.b814170997a49a5b1050e94709269319.png

So: This has to be a 145 V max model, and if it came from the factory like that, it has to be a clone.

Also, setting 28 must be PAL, else the firmware would not have anything in the middle digits. There is no ERROR or warning () icon showing, so unless there is a fault code alternating with the MS, there is no fault or warning.

Edited by Coulomb
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5 hours ago, BritishRacingGreen said:

Even if you soft start the Pylon via its on-off switch, which precharges the bus caps on the inverter? 

You can put a 60W filament globe over the open fuse, let it pre charge the caps, remove globe and close fuse. 

Have you perhaps tried to buy a 60-100W filament bulb recently. Very very difficult to find. One can get a buld with a halogen filament. This is what I have found in trying to source such globes for a test jig. Need the visual indication so a resistor not the best alternative. 

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18 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

Have you perhaps tried to buy a 60-100W filament bulb recently. Very very difficult to find. One can get a buld with a halogen filament. This is what I have found in trying to source such globes for a test jig. Need the visual indication so a resistor not the best alternative. 

I see Builder's do have them as stock item (ElectroLux). 

Your idea of using it as permanent indicator is novel. It will also give you an idea wether there is a short circuit in the inverter before turning the battery on hard. 

Only obstacle is fuse box is typically double cut, so you need two indicators. One idea is to use to use dual filament automative  globe, wire filaments in serie, and have one globe on each battery leg. (24v rating per leg). 

Edited by BritishRacingGreen
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11 minutes ago, BritishRacingGreen said:

I see Builder's do have them as stock item (ElectroLux). 

Your idea of using it as permanent indicator is novel. It will also give you an idea wether there is a short circuit in the inverter before turning the battery on hard. 

Only obstacle is fuse box is typically double cut, so you need two indicators. One idea is to use to use dual filament automative  globe, wire filaments in serie, and have one globe on each battery leg. (24v rating per leg). 

Hang on i am dof, the 12v lamps resistance may be too low. 

EDIT : mind you inrush current of 2A or more will still be fine for those caps. 

Edited by BritishRacingGreen
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3 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

Have you perhaps tried to buy a 60-100W filament bulb recently. Very very difficult to find. One can get a buld with a halogen filament. This is what I have found in trying to source such globes for a test jig. Need the visual indication so a resistor not the best alternative. 

I have a button with an LED so I wired that in parralel with the 4K7 5W resistor so when it dims I engage the fuse.

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3 hours ago, Coulomb said:

That's not NS, that's patched firmware showing MS. All 7 segment renderings of an M are awful; Weber decided (and I agree) that this is the least worst. Factory firmware shows HS for master. You're supposed to imagine the top bar as slightly bent down in the middle, like this: image.png.b814170997a49a5b1050e94709269319.png

So: This has to be a 145 V max model, and if it came from the factory like that, it has to be a clone.

Also, setting 28 must be PAL, else the firmware would not have anything in the middle digits. There is no ERROR or warning () icon showing, so unless there is a fault code alternating with the MS, there is no fault or warning.

Still though. Why isn't it cold booting. It turns on, but the output does not enable?

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8 hours ago, Adagio said:

Why isn't it cold booting. It turns on, but the output does not enable?

Perhaps a problem with the power switch? If the inverter thinks it's turned off, then it will stay on (lighting the LCD for instance, and possibly charging the battery), but it won't power the loads. If you do get AC out from AC in, the relays may be shorted as well. With no charging source (AC-in or solar), it will eventually (after 10-30 seconds, I forget the figure) it will turn off completely. 

It might also be the circuit from the power switch that is supposed to turn on the main power supply. See my traced schematics. There is a capacitor involved that may have dried up or become leaky. I'm AFK at present. 

Edit: Like C7 in this schematic trace.

Edited by Coulomb
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11 hours ago, Adagio said:

So, the fans I ordered arrived and I changed them. It's definitely not caused by that.

Heres a YouTube Video  on what it does.

Just fyi, these TSP inverters are clones, sold with a version of @Coulomb and Weber's patched firmware of sorts. I had one of these and it only lasted 3 years before acting up with all sorts of trips, errors, startup issues and battery voltage readings of 120V before it finally died. I spent about a month going through all of coulombs posts trying to figure out what was wrong and finally realized I wasn't going to get the necessary info due to the difference in the clone hardware, so I just bought a Kodak instead as there is a lot more support for it.

I realize R12k+ is a lot to fork out for another inverter, so it might be a good idea to get someone with skills like @BritishRacingGreen to take a look at it before it does more damage to itself.

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The inverter was free with the battery when my friend claimed it from his insurance and they forgot to pick it up.

It is working just fine, i don't think it's faulty. (Apart from the fans I replaced)

I think there's a config that I have misconfigured, that isn't allowing it to boot.

 

@Coulomb the new patched FW has support for LiFePo4 directly right? Would it be a good idea to update it?

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The inverter seems to think that the power switch is off, yet the power switch starts the power supply. In Axpert terms, this has to be U13 or the two resistors near it, or something on the control board connecting to CN11 pin 16, or printed circuit board traces between U13 and the control board.

7 hours ago, Adagio said:

the new patched FW has support for LiFePo4 directly right? Would it be a good idea to update it?

What version of firmware is it running? If it has LF1 on what normally would be the U1 LCD data page, then it's already running the LFP flavour of patched firmware. Though the clones tend to run 72.70c, which is quite old, and I can't remember if they run the LF1 or LC1 flavour.

Certainly if you are using an LFP battery and you have patched firmware anyway, you may as well try to update to the latest patched firmware. One problem is, some of the clones, especially the ones that came with patched firmware, aren't capable of being updated at all.

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19 hours ago, Coulomb said:

The inverter seems to think that the power switch is off, yet the power switch starts the power supply. In Axpert terms, this has to be U13 or the two resistors near it, or something on the control board connecting to CN11 pin 16, or printed circuit board traces between U13 and the control board.

What version of firmware is it running? If it has LF1 on what normally would be the U1 LCD data page, then it's already running the LFP flavour of patched firmware. Though the clones tend to run 72.70c, which is quite old, and I can't remember if they run the LF1 or LC1 flavour.

Certainly if you are using an LFP battery and you have patched firmware anyway, you may as well try to update to the latest patched firmware. One problem is, some of the clones, especially the ones that came with patched firmware, aren't capable of being updated at all.

You think it's hardware?

Ah geeze. I was really hoping it'll be a config problem.

What is U13? I can easily get the parts. We order from DIgikey almost every week.

 

I'm not sure what it's running. How do I check? It definitely doesn't have a LiFePo4 profile. I had to do a manual profile.

Also learned last night that it determines battery percentage with the cutoff voltage that I made too high when it wouldn't stop beeping.

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1 hour ago, Adagio said:

What is U13?

Cosmo 1010 B optocoupler.

1 hour ago, Adagio said:

I'm not sure what it's running. How do I check?

Just press up or down buttons under the LC Display until you get to a page with something like "LF1 72 70C".

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