Looking at pricing in the UK I got these figures. 

2021 18.9p/kWh  R4. 38

2023 34p/kWh  R7. 87

Based on the current exchange rate. 

Increase thus 80% in UK currency in 2 years due to the energy squeeze. 

Do we have reason to complain about the price-NO.

LS - yes yes yes

29 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

Do we have reason to complain about the price-NO.

"The average salary in South Africa is 31,100 ZAR (South African Rand) per month(R372,000 p.a.) This amounts to USD 1,599 as per the latest exchange rates in May 2023. South Africa has significantly lower average salaries than the United States or the United Kingdom, making it an attractive outsourcing destination."

"As of November 2022 (the latest full Government data) the current average salary in the UK is £27,756 (R640 952,37), which is a 6.8% increase from 2021. In 2023, average regular pay (excluding bonuses) has grown by an average of 6.6% from January to April 2023."

If you consider they earn almost 2x what we do on avg the price is not that much different.

 

Edited July 24, 20233 yr by Nexuss

36 minutes ago, Nexuss said:

"The average salary in South Africa is 31,100 ZAR (South African Rand) per month(R372,000 p.a.) This amounts to USD 1,599 as per the latest exchange rates in May 2023. South Africa has significantly lower average salaries than the United States or the United Kingdom, making it an attractive outsourcing destination."

"As of November 2022 (the latest full Government data) the current average salary in the UK is £27,756 (R640 952,37), which is a 6.8% increase from 2021. In 2023, average regular pay (excluding bonuses) has grown by an average of 6.6% from January to April 2023."

If you consider they earn almost 2x what we do on avg the price is not that much different.

 

It is a bit more complicated than that. In the UK people heat their water and houses using natural gas. Around 40% of a typical South Africans electricity budget goes toward heating the geyser.

49 minutes ago, Nexuss said:

"The average salary in South Africa is 31,100 ZAR (South African Rand) per month(R372,000 p.a.) This amounts to USD 1,599 as per the latest exchange rates in May 2023. South Africa has significantly lower average salaries than the United States or the United Kingdom, making it an attractive outsourcing destination."

"As of November 2022 (the latest full Government data) the current average salary in the UK is £27,756 (R640 952,37), which is a 6.8% increase from 2021. In 2023, average regular pay (excluding bonuses) has grown by an average of 6.6% from January to April 2023."

If you consider they earn almost 2x what we do on avg the price is not that much different.

 

I totally accept the affordability based on income. I just think 80% in 2 years is a very high increase. It was not meant as a affordable debate. 

So we all feel the increases and a lot of times we think it's only in our country. 

My BIL is in Florida and he asks about prices on a regular basis. He says things have gone sky high there as well. Yes they can afford to pay more. 

10 minutes ago, HendrikBigChief said:

It is a bit more complicated than that. In the UK people heat their water and houses using natural gas. Around 40% of a typical South Africans electricity budget goes toward heating the geyser.

Not just in the UK, most European countries have natural gas piped to the houses for cooking and heating. 

3 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

I totally accept the affordability based on income. I just think 80% in 2 years is a very high increase. It was not meant as a affordable debate. 

So we all feel the increases and a lot of times we think it's only in our country. 

My BIL is in Florida and he asks about prices on a regular basis. He says things have gone sky high there as well. Yes they can afford to pay more. 

Certainly not just in our country, I think what makes things worse is our load shedding - not only do we now need to pay a lot more for electricity but we cannot use it when we would like to. We're forced to follow the load shedding schedule or cough up even more money for backup power solutions.

 

On the plus side, solar offers far better ROI compared to solar in the UK. It is more "justified" here in SA.

2 minutes ago, PsyCLown said:

Certainly not just in our country, I think what makes things worse is our load shedding - not only do we now need to pay a lot more for electricity but we cannot use it when we would like to. We're forced to follow the load shedding schedule or cough up even more money for backup power solutions.

 

On the plus side, solar offers far better ROI compared to solar in the UK. It is more "justified" here in SA.

Sunny ZA has a plus as well. 😀😀😀

For interest sake, what is the price difference with the natural gas in the UK vs what we pay for LPG?

The next question would be, how much cheaper (if at all) would it be to heat ones water via gas as opposed to an electric geyser? Hard to say as everyone's situation differs in terms of geyser size, location, set temperature and how much and how often they use hot water although on average.

4 hours ago, PsyCLown said:

For interest sake, what is the price difference with the natural gas in the UK vs what we pay for LPG?

The next question would be, how much cheaper (if at all) would it be to heat ones water via gas as opposed to an electric geyser? Hard to say as everyone's situation differs in terms of geyser size, location, set temperature and how much and how often they use hot water although on average.

Gas is priced about 32% per kWh of the price of electricity. Actually strange to see it priced per kWh and not per kg like here. 

It is much cheaper for Europe to use & gas for heating and cooking. 

I'm using gas for the gas hub and gas heater (gyser) but we only 2 in the house and 3 when my youngest daughter comes visit every 2 month we 3 but all shower and we use a 9kg bottle every 7 to 8  weeks in summer and every 6 weeks in winter. 

9 kg bottle cost R280  to exchange so you guys can do your calculations but about R160 a month to shower and cook so  for me electric geyser can't beat gas even running the electric geyser  on a timer and added advantage is there's always hot water . 

10 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

Looking at pricing in the UK I got these figures. 

2021 18.9p/kWh  R4. 38

2023 34p/kWh  R7. 87

Based on the current exchange rate. 

Increase thus 80% in UK currency in 2 years due to the energy squeeze. 

Do we have reason to complain about the price-NO.

LS - yes yes yes

It would also help if the Europeans and "friends" didn't blow up gas pipelines supplying cheap abundant gas. A problem of there own making. 😲

Fortunately we are disconnected from that problem, but we have our own cANCer with a load of local energy problems.

Either way I would never move elsewhere, but make the best of it here. Besides useless politicians, we have a lovely country and most people are great.

 

Solar power in the UK is a problem compared to SA, as there weather and sun hours per day is terrible.

Most on the forum have solar, so LS doesn't really bother us.

Got a gas stove as a last resort, but haven't used it in 2+ months, as we use electric stove, and induction for cooking. Solar has been good enough for now.

Feel sorry for those poor UK souls...

18 hours ago, Scorp007 said:

My BIL is in Florida and he asks about prices on a regular basis. He says things have gone sky high there as well. Yes they can afford to pay more.

Because the price isn't fixed. Just like it isn't in the UK and in most EU countries. The price fluctuates all the time.

In many cases there are multiple providers on the grid, and you sign up with one of those. They compete with each other which should control prices, but when demand is high or supply constrained then the unit price will go up. 

This was a big news item during the most recent British winter. Energy prices soared, and households were put under a lot of pressure. There were reports of families faced with a choice between cooking or heating, of people taking long bus rides there and back to stay warm for a while. 

Eskom is now being split in two: generation and transmission. This should allow other generators to feed into the grid & start selling what they produce. 

I wonder if we'd pay double the price for double the reliability? 

NERSA, of course & rightly, will be concerned about the poor, but can they find a way to allow IPPs providing at a different tariff to those who will voluntarily pay? 

9 hours ago, Superfly said:

That's cheap I pay R340 (gas seems scarce here) - anyway you are using R2.28/kwH .. not bad COCT cost is R3.50.

Shop around for gas, the price isn't fixed. I pay 280 for a 9kg cylinder delivered to my door (they take an empty away). Amazingly it was 305 about 6 weeks ago, but since then the company has found some saving & passed it on to their customers. I have heard other folks talking about north of R300, which makes the point that you should shop around. 

Currently I buy from The Gas Company . Note I use the free delivery option, which is within 5 days. As long as you have another bottle, this works very well. 

 

13 hours ago, Superfly said:

That actually is quite interesting, has anyone worked out how much kwH a 9Kg gas tank is equivalent to? It lasts ~3 months with the hob but very little on the heater (as expected) - just curious.

Edit: There I go jumpimg in the deep end again before Googling... LOL  1kg of propane = 14.019 kWh / 1 kg = 13.6 kWh of energy from LPG

The 13.6kWh is the theoretical amount, however cooking with gas is very inefficient, I would be surprised of half that energy is actually reaching the pan/pot.

5 hours ago, Bobster. said:

Because the price isn't fixed. Just like it isn't in the UK and in most EU countries. The price fluctuates all the time. 

The values from my 1st post mentioned the capped maximum charge as well as guaranteed maximum charge. 

No mention of peak and non peak and the difference is shown per area as listed below. 

From what I read the peak period is one indicated a few hours in advance and can last short periods. 

@Bobster. Quite a few years ago Eskom was split between Generation. Transmission and Distribution. 

Power stations were bidding at different prices to sell to Transmission. Some high cost power stations were ready to only sell power when there was a unit going off load. 

Yes it was funny money within Eskom but good KPIs were in place for performance. 

That was the time they wanted to merge the Metros with their Distribution side to create what was called the REDS. 

 

Edited July 25, 20233 yr by Scorp007

8 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

The values from my 1st post mentioned the capped maximum charge as well as guaranteed maximum charge. 

No mention of peak and non peak and the difference is shown per area as listed below. 

From what I read the peak period is one indicated a few hours in advance and can last short periods. 

 

I didn't mean time of day, I really meant day to day: Power is in short supply and the provider has to pay more therefore the provider charges more.

AIUI the caps you refer to were/are temporary and subsidised by Government.

To shift things away from the UK, family of mine in Spain saw their energy bill triple month to month without them doing anything they wouldn't usually do. Because Spain, like the UK, like most of the EU, doesn't have an equivalent of NERSA that says "this is the price for the next 12 months".

Though I wonder what happens to NERSA's power to do that once/if there are multiple entities generating power into the grid.

13 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

 Quite a few years ago Eskom was split between Generation. Transmission and Distribution. 

Power stations were bidding at different prices to sell to Transmission. Some high cost power stations were ready to only sell power when there was a unit going off load. 

Yes it was funny money within Eskom but good KPIs were in place for performance. 

That was the time they wanted to merge the Metros with their Distribution side to create what was called the REDS. 

That I did not know. I've seen reports recently that the Eskom split is going ahead, and that in fact transmission has been viable all along, it's the generation side that is going to find itself in trouble.

It reminds me of my days working for what was then The Department Of Posts and Telecommunications. Broadly speaking there were two arms: Telecommunications (what is now Telkom) and Posts (what is now SAPO). Everybody knew, but mostly didn't say out loud, that Telecommunications was subsidising Posts, and thus that if the two were split, Posts would find itself in real trouble. 

How did that work out again?

12 hours ago, Bobster. said:

How did that work out again?

Hard to find a Post Office now...🤔

19 minutes ago, Superfly said:

Why do we need a Post Office..? still sending Christmas cards? LOL .. 

I get snail mail but only my Utility bill.. 

 

 

I stopped using snail mail after not getting a single utility bill in 2 years. At home street delivery was good during this period for a tenant toll gate account. 

2 hours ago, Superfly said:

Why do we need a Post Office..? still sending Christmas cards? LOL .. 

I get snail mail but only my Utility bill.. 

 

 

I used to get a load of electronic goods from AliExpress via the Post Office. It took a couple of months, but arrived for almost no shipping cost. Now it's not worth getting stuff,  with the courier fees. 😢

I still get stuff through aliexpress delivered via post office but it's a gamble.  All packages delivered or refunded so far. Touch wood. Last package delivered June 2023.