I got tired of watering the cells so I got a watering kit ... and that's with 4 Trojans. Cannot imagine what it is like with 8 or 16 ... 

Plug in the pipe, put other end in the 5l distilled water bottle,and squeeze the rubber ball. Minute or two later, done.

13 hours ago, gabriel said:

 also with agms, they must be nursed and looked after - temperature, ventilation, bmv702, balancer etc.... or pay the extra for lions with bms... what if you are out of circulation, health-wise or death, will your team be able to sort out the energy stuff... questions and questions... 

This seems to be the only real argument for LiON batteries, besides the small space it takes

15 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I recon about R5300 incl per batt.

AGM's, also now out in 12v 200ah at 1700 cycles at 50% are about R6400.

Deepbass'es 6V AGM batteries 375Ah makes a lot more sense though.

The cheapest price I can find for J200re's is R6400. The AGM 375's I am getting for R5800. The price is roughly equivalent for the capacity.

Edited December 16, 20187 yr by DeepBass9

2 minutes ago, DeepBass9 said:

The AGM 375's I am getting for R5800. 

VAT Inclusive?

1 minute ago, Antony said:

VAT Inclusive?

Ex VAT, so actually the exact same price that I  found. What is the best price available on J200s?

I must admit though I am tired of topping up cells with battery water all the time, so Maintenance free is quite appealing.

As an update on the situation though, this morning the inverter started switching off as soon as any load was applied. I checked all of the batteries and found one with a voltage of 8V, obviously the culprit so I have now made up a single string of the best of the rest, and am going to have to nurse that through until the suppliers open again on Tuesday.  Sometimes decisions are made for you.

On 2018/12/11 at 8:13 AM, DeepBass9 said:

My current thinking is to get 3 Pylontechs or BYDs now, and then another 1 or 2 closer to winter to spread the cost a bit.

A small detail would be what sort of connections do you use to the inverter? Normal battery lugs or something else?

Pylontech comes with its own cables.

So here's what happened. I have each string of batteries fused. The fuse popped on the one string (which I never noticed), and so the other string was now carrying all the load and getting overcharged as well in the process, eventually leading to the failure of one battery in the string, and the extreme overuse of the other batteries in that string. Lesson learned, check your fuses! (or only have one string of batteries, not 2 in parallel). 

@DeepBass9,

Try these, cheap a chips, pop them in a bit of clear heat shrink. Permanent mount them between the poles of each battery.

You could deploy them across your fuses as well.

Them you can see at a glance if there is something amiss.

4 hours ago, Antony said:

VAT Inclusive?

Jip.

4 hours ago, DeepBass9 said:

The cheapest price I can find for J200re's is R6400. The AGM 375's I am getting for R5800. The price is roughly equivalent for the capacity.

I shop harder than most. Am going to find out what the SAGM 06 375 go for on Tuesday, as they are now of interest to me too.

Can never understand why one must pay so much for batteries when one has no shop, staff nor stock to keep when with a email, emailed invoice and EFT, one can get the batts delivered (within certain T&C's) near anywhere in SA, free of charge, at a home or the closest local supplier.

And the more I read here, the more I think I would stick with Trojan's for a while longer. Simply because a) they are super tested and reliable and b) the can handle a lot of abuse.

AGM's have never been my favourites but now 12v 1700 cycles and these one Deepbass has found, the SAGM 06 375 with 2000 cycles ... my interest is seriously piqued.

4 hours ago, Antony said:

VAT Inclusive?

Sorry, I meant the J200's I found where Vat incl ... apologies.

54 minutes ago, phil.g00 said:

@DeepBass9,

Try these, cheap a chips, pop them in a bit of clear heat shrink. Permanent mount them between the poles of each battery.

You could deploy them across your fuses as well.

Them you can see at a glance if there is something amiss.

a b

Good idea, I had thought about that, one for each battery which would have revealed the problem as well.

My batteries were on their way out in any case, the exact mode of failure is perhaps moot.

What I discovered when I looked at a all the batteries was this:

String one (actually the slightly older string but this is the one with the popped fuse)  : 12.9V : 12.9V  : 11.8V  : 12.9V

String 2 : 8.0V :  9.3V  : 12.2V : 12.2V

So now I have swapped the last battery from string 2 with the low one on string 1 and for the time being things seem OK. It just needs to last until next week when I can replace the whole lot.

Looks to me like the low battery in string 1 popped the fuse, and then string 2 did all the work. For how long? No idea actually. So if I had a few cheap voltmeters at various strategic places, it would have revealed the problem before it got to the current messy state.

 

Edited December 16, 20187 yr by DeepBass9

@DeepBass9,

An anecdotal story, but take from it what you will.

I know this would not be considered best choice or practice, but these batteries were already there when I became involved.

Originally, starting life as a 24V bank, 48  100AH 12V sealed silver calcium torque batteries (24 strings).

 The original 24V 6kW inverter packed up and I was asked to get involved, so I reconfigured them as a 48V bank. (12 strings).

They were already 2 years old.

I also discovered the MPPTs' charging cycles had been set normal lead acid's (the default), (S-C batteries need a higher voltage) at that point.

That was adjusted.

There was no individual voltmeters, no battery balancers and no BMV and zero knowledge or concern for DoD. 

So, in short this is the the wrong type of batteries that are now nearly 3 years old, in multiple strings, and they have been undercharged for two of them.

They have been used everyday, except when they sat for a month or two in-between inverters.

I performed a similar voltage test to yourself, and to my surprise only found two duds, and 1 healthy string with a blown fuse.

So, now there are 11 strings. (With two batteries spare ready for the next two duds)

All these bad practices will no doubt have taken their toll, this bank's treatment and makeup goes against what considered best practice.

I am going to install the voltmeters and the HA02's on my next visit,  I'll cut out anymore duds out the pack, but in some shape or form I think another 2-3 years is on the cards for this bank.

By no means do I recommend this bank composition, but I think if I'd of asked about it on this forum, I'd have got odds it wouldn't have survived as long as it has already.

I think that the sheer size of a battery bank contributes to its longevity.

The attached picture is an indication of the molly-coddling these batteries have received, if I am not mistaken the stamp indicates they were made in June 2015. 

 

 

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, phil.g00 said:

@DeepBass9The attached picture is an indication of the molly-coddling these batteries have received, if I am not mistaken the stamp indicates they were made in June 2015. 

Heh, total cotton wool babies 

I believe that the 3615 stamp implies manufacture in the 36th week of 2015. So about September 2015, I think. 

@Coulomb, Yes, you're right, still over 3 years old though.

What is also interesting is the wording "maintenance free" on the battery label.

I can vouch that this practice has always been meticulously followed, almost to the point of negligent sabotage.

When reading / following all of this I come to realise that solar batteries are an art - as opposed to science.

I’ve written a post before of how we managed battery loaders in a colliery. And much of what we learned is forgotten today.

For example, when charging is taking place and when the battery is hot, it is not available for use. And in our case it was normally 16 hours out of 24 hours not available as that was the time taken up for maintenance, charging and watering and cooling down.

The above I cannot help but notice is nowhere mentioned in the posts. But it is applicable to all trojans and similiar batteries with acid levels to be maintained. So some batteries are not available 24/7 for discharge. And the charging time from their prescribed dod is not quantified in hours. 

I find that my pylontech batteries charge quickly from the municipal supply, but I have not timed it yet. And I trust the bms to manage it perfectly (lol). And all of this happen without me spending my valuable (retired) time on it.

I would find a fact sheet (in excel format?) on batteries to be of great help in assisting making a better choice on batteries. I am quite sure that all the battery facts can be captured this way, calculations on kwhrs and costs can be done as well as charging cycles, before the knowledge is forgotten.

Surely one of the members can compile such a sheet. And if everybody contributes it will become very valuable.

Sorry for the rambling - but I’ve been laying awake for a loong time now.

 

1 hour ago, Johandup said:

I find that my pylontech batteries charge quickly from the municipal supply, but I have not timed it yet. And I trust the bms to manage it perfectly (lol). And all of this happen without me spending my valuable (retired) time on it.

ditto ☺️

17 hours ago, DeepBass9 said:

The fuse popped on the one string (which I never noticed), and so the other string was now carrying all the load and getting overcharged as well in the process, eventually leading to the failure of one battery in the string, and the extreme overuse of the other batteries in that string. Lesson learned, check your fuses! (or only have one string of batteries, not 2 in parallel). 

"DELETE" all below

Dear PF gurus'

Is there any other way of being alerted to something like this? is there a way to monitor string performance and should 1 string "go down" then an alarm is raised?

This could very well save batteries...

Edited December 17, 20187 yr by Antony
I see it was answered by Phil already

17 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I shop harder than most. Am going to find out what the SAGM 06 375 go for on Tuesday, as they are now of interest to me too.

same here, please post us results of your "search"

27 minutes ago, Antony said:

Is there any other way of being alerted to something like this? is there a way to monitor string performance and should 1 string "go down" then an alarm is raised?

I see you're happy with my voltmeter suggestion, but for the benefit of members, there are many options out there.

There are fuses that with various colored tabs and fallout mechanisms give a visual indication.

There are also MCB's with auxiliary contacts that alarm when they trip.

Across a healthy fuse there in no voltage because it's a dead short, when it blows it becomes open-circuit and then full voltage will be across it.

Simple to make the appearance of voltage operate an alarm contact.I imagine that off-the-shelf products are available.

I just like the voltmeters as KISS solution, ( you can also put across fuses (0V =OK)), because a 10 sec check does it and you can see other things like dying cells and balance issues as well.

 

3 minutes ago, phil.g00 said:

Across a healthy fuse there in no voltage because it's a dead short, when it blows it becomes open-circuit and then full voltage will be across it.

Simple to make the appearance of voltage operate an alarm contact.I imagine that off-the-shelf products are available.

 

good idea

8 hours ago, phil.g00 said:

Originally, starting life as a 24V bank, 48  100AH 12V sealed silver calcium torque batteries (24 strings).

Kyrie Eleison!

 

8 hours ago, phil.g00 said:

I think that the sheer size of a battery bank contributes to its longevity.

That's for sure.

59 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Kyrie Eleison!

Lord, have mercy??? 

1 hour ago, gabriel said:

Lord, have mercy??? 

Yes... on the soul of the guy who has to live with 24 strings!

On 2018/12/16 at 3:25 PM, The Terrible Triplett said:

I shop harder than most. Am going to find out what the SAGM 06 375 go for on Tuesday, as they are now of interest to me too.

Can never understand why one must pay so much for batteries when one has no shop, staff nor stock to keep when with a email, emailed invoice and EFT, one can get the batts delivered (within certain T&C's) near anywhere in SA, free of charge, at a home or the closest local supplier.

And the more I read here, the more I think I would stick with Trojan's for a while longer. Simply because a) they are super tested and reliable and b) the can handle a lot of abuse.

AGM's have never been my favourites but now 12v 1700 cycles and these one Deepbass has found, the SAGM 06 375 with 2000 cycles ... my interest is seriously piqued.

@The Terrible Triplett and at @DeepBass9

Feel free to message me guys, we are backed and accredited resellers for Trojan Battery in SA and can assist with the lay of the land when it comes to info on the various Trojan product lines, available stock etc, and will match any authorized resellers price.

N.B - Also be aware of parallel imports on Trojan, there have been issues this year, and Trojan have made it clear that these batteries will NOT be supported or warrantied by them.

Save you guys a bit of missioning...