22 minutes ago, The Bulldog said:

"Inverter not on approved list" 

Did you specifically list the Ziehl on the application as the method for anti-islanding? Not that I think it would have helped... I just wonder about that.

Don't know - did not look at the application in any detail - left that to the Engineer.

We'll see what happens, he has not yet commented.

Attached pdf shows the system in graphical form for reference

 

solar2.pdf

Edited February 19, 20197 yr by The Bulldog

38 minutes ago, The Bulldog said:

Just got the answer:

"Inverter not on approved list" 

Denied.

So that answers the question if the Ziehl anti-islanding solution which is NRS-097 approved will make a Multi (or for that matter other inverters) legal in COCT's view.

So off-grid, here we come.

Which inverter did you list?

 

3 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

Which inverter did you list?

 

Blue ones. See graphic in my previous post.

12 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

Which inverter did you list?

Multiplus... the ones that comply with NRS097-2-1 if you add a Ziehl device.

Well blow me down ... one time and the Multigrid was allowed to continue. 

@The Bulldog - I think you need to get into character with your PF name and get into the fray of things. 🙂 

I'm going to then join you when the tell me I must add a Ziehl or some such.

PS. I was told to remove all nice pictures from the line diagram as the people who view them expect a consistent view to make things easier and faster. 

Edited February 19, 20197 yr by Guest

3 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Multiplus... the ones that comply with NRS097-2-1 if you add a Ziehl device.

Jup. We gave them all the supporting documents from Victron and a lot more. Looks like they did not even look at anything.

1 minute ago, The Bulldog said:

Looks like they did not even look at anything.

Yup. If it isn't on the list they reject it outright. I think that is wrong... but what do I know 🙂

57 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

 

@The Bulldog - I think you need to get into character with your PF name and get into the fray of things. 🙂 

Grrrr...

On it !
Got an e-mail back from COCT asking to explain the Ziehl after I asked if they took that into account. There is hope... (cue suitable music in the background)

Seriously - armed with a correctly installed and configured Ziehl with two series contactors PLUS the contactor in the Multi PLUS the inverter itself which is switched off in case of a system problem (like a stuck contactor in the Multi) - it really is difficult to imagine a more bullet proof approach to anti-islanding.

It can be argued (in my opinion) that the Ziehl should easily make most decent inverters that are not on COCT's list legal provided they can demonstrate active anti-islanding with at least one mechanical contactor to be within NRS-097 limits.

But then again - I'm not the one making the decisions...

 

3 minutes ago, The Bulldog said:

Got an e-mail back from COCT asking to explain the Ziehl after I asked if they took that into account.

From what I understood in chatting to them last year via email, it is all very new to them all, and they are short staffed to boot.

We keep our cool, the Engineers back our claims, after the first few went in and they get the "patterns"... then watch, next time they see the Ziehl with a Victron product, the rest of the guys with same will fly through.

My and Plonkster's, ours are on that list, we need to get it in without extra's, once ours are done, then even more Victron products can fly through the process.

Same with the rest.

We are not on the cutting edge ... we are still on the bleeding edge.

Here is the last reply. Off-grid it is.

-------------------------------------

We are only to accept inverters that are on the approve list of City of Cape Town.

 I don’t compile this list or have any decision what invertor should or should not be on the list but are on strict order by management not to approve any application if the invertor is not on this list

 The invertors model that is specify on the application is not on our approve inverter list therefore I cannot approve this application

Edited February 19, 20197 yr by The Bulldog

10 minutes ago, The Bulldog said:

Here is the last reply. Off-grid it is.

-------------------------------------

We are only to accept inverters that are on the approve list of City of Cape Town.

 I don’t compile this list or have any decision what invertor should or should not be on the list but are on strict order by management not to approve any application if the invertor is not on this list

 The invertors model that is specify on the application is not on our approve inverter list therefore I cannot approve this application

I take it you can't sell / swap / exchange those Victron Multiplus 5000 for MultiPlus - II 48/3000/35-32 models?

Is the battery bank sufficient for your needs if you have to go off-grid?

@plonkster do you perhaps have any idea why the Multiplus 5000 isn't on the list, but the MultiPlus - II 48/3000/35-32 is?

11 minutes ago, The Bulldog said:

Here is the last reply. Off-grid it is.

I suspect there will be a lot (especially those that have fatter wallets) of people going Off-grid just to escape what they might feel is the bureaucracy of the CoCT 

1 minute ago, SilverNodashi said:

@plonkster do you perhaps have any idea why the Multiplus 5000 isn't on the list, but the MultiPlus - II 48/3000/35-32 is?

I can answer that, NRS 097-2-1

The new Multiplus II 5Kva unit is around the corner though and that will have NRS 097-2-1 certification. 

Just now, PJJ said:

I suspect there will be a lot (especially those that have fatter wallets) of people going Off-grid just to escape what they might feel is the bureaucracy of the CoCT 

I guess so. We had a rainy and cloudy week, last week, so Eskom came in handy with washing and drying clothing last week. Sometimes I need it, but I guess I could use a generator (just need to dust if off and service it) in such case instead of trying to be fully eskom complaint. 

 

and this then raise the question: Since your inverter isn't on the list, and thus you aren't compliant, would one still need to bother registering said system?

4 minutes ago, PJJ said:

I can answer that, NRS 097-2-1

The new Multiplus II 5Kva unit is around the corner though and that will have NRS 097-2-1 certification. 

Please explain your statement. 

 

the PDF I found on the capetown.gov.za website has NRS 097-2-1 listed inverters. But I see they only have NRS 097-2-1: 2010 a and  NRS 097-2-1: 2017 Certification 

Was the Multiplus 5000 perhaps certified after 2017?

 

@The Bulldog it might be worth-it to find out if you can simply resubmit your application once the Multiplus 5000 is on the list? Or would they not reconsider it?

Edited February 19, 20197 yr by SilverNodashi

2 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

Was the Multiplus 5000 perhaps certified after 2017?

It has to do with Anti islanding protection IIRC, and the new 2017 requirements requires additional anti islanding protection that the old 5000VA multi didn't have, Victron then gave us the MultiGrid inverter (Just a 3Kva Multi with the required protection) and then decided to rename it to the Multiplus II, and thus far they have only released the 3Kva unit, the 5Kva unit is apparently already released but I haven't seen one pop up yet on any price lists.

8 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

@The Bulldog it might be worth-it to find out if you can simply resubmit your application once the Multiplus 5000 is on the list? Or would they not reconsider it?

They will reject it, because on the list it will be called a Multiplus II, and he only has a Multiplus, or atleast that's what I think they will say.

Well I am unlikely to buy three new Victrons to replace three perfectly good ones.

If I'm going to spend more money on my system it will be to improve its off-grid capability - definitely not to appease COCT without a good technical reason.

Right now it is effectively off-grid capable as it has a big 55KVA generator with a pretty much state of the art control system. So this connected to the three Multies can charge the batteries at a rate of about 10Kw/h (actual power after losses). The BMS can take care of automatically starting and stopping the generator in those cases where solar radiation is not sufficient.
I have 15KVA worth of inverters but cannot really use them at full capacity due to the high DC current needed - My batteries are 900AH flooded lead acid types and one problem with those is the internal resistance increases as they discharge so that limits maximum amps I can draw unless the batteries are nearly full.

I'll probably do a minor rewire in the house to take the aircons and gysers (they are solar anyway) onto grid permanently and everything else including stove can run off the solar/battery just fine. I already have the interlocking changeover switch COCT requires for off-grid so the rewiring is relatively minor.

Before ESS came along (which is a great system) I was effectively using the Victrons off-grid anyway - I set it up if battery levels dropped below 60% it would then switch to grid (they rarely go that far down - normally I cycle about 20% DOD). So the only real change on that side is to take the input of the Victrons to the generator directly.

Not the way I wanted it but hey, can you argue with stupid bureaucracy ? 

12 minutes ago, PJJ said:

It has to do with Anti islanding protection IIRC, and the new 2017 requirements requires additional anti islanding protection that the old 5000VA multi didn't have, Victron then gave us the MultiGrid inverter (Just a 3Kva Multi with the required protection) and then decided to rename it to the Multiplus II, and thus far they have only released the 3Kva unit, the 5Kva unit is apparently already released but I haven't seen one pop up yet on any price lists.

I have the variants with the 100A transfer switch - unlikely the Multiplus II will have that - there is not really enough space in there as they now need two of them.

The Multiplus II is effectively a Multiplus plus half a Ziehl in one housing. This is why it is so maddening to get COCT response like this. Complete inflexibility.

So why not get all team Blue's devices on there and be done with it? There is a comments section in the file where 'natively' unsupported devices, the ones with half-a Ziehl 😆 device can be paired with an already approved Ziehl device. Boom, done!

Edited February 19, 20197 yr by Ingo

Still thinking that if the engineers we contract with solar installers we employ, if the all band together and take the matter en-mass to the top oaks at CoCT, that their will be a revisit of logic.

I myself will not bow, but I must also add that I don't intend cutting of my nose to spite CoCT.

@The Bulldog - send me a PM with the names of whom you dealt with? Reason I ask is that maybe I have some more names for you to chat to, you and your engineer. 

On another note, If the entire setup is registered as off-grid, with all the grid tied safeties in place, who is to stop anyone to run it either way. Like a knock on the door from a official, flick that switch, disconnect that wire, and system is as registered. 🤔

@Ingo The cost to get inverters on the list apparently is not cheap, and the SA market is too small to bother the big suppliers, and CoCT negligible. So it is a carefully crafted dance here.

41 minutes ago, Ingo said:

So why not get all team Blue's devices on there and be done with it?

It comes down to this. That NRS097-2-1 (and VDE-AR-N-4105, the German one) requires a two-series relay disconnect which the standard Multiplus doesn't have (that's fine for a UPS, but not for a hybrid). But the standard Multiplus has active anti-islanding, so combining it with a Ziehl UFR-1001e ticks all the boxes, and complies with NRS097-2-1.

There is however no test certificate for this combination. There is one for the Ziehl only.

From the email above it is clear that a higher-up instructed an employee to do things a certain way, that is to say, I get the feeling Cape Town is not presently equipped to deal with the more difficult cases. Don't have the capacity or something.

If I can ask Cape Town just one question, it would be to explain the presence of the Ziehl device on the list. It is a Passive anti-islanding switch. It can only be used with another device that implements at least one active measure. Its very existence on the list hints towards the existence of such devices... 🙂

Of course, if one were to ask, it might just get the Ziehl dropped.

1 hour ago, SilverNodashi said:

 do you perhaps have any idea why the Multiplus 5000 isn't on the list, but the MultiPlus - II 48/3000/35-32 is?

Multiplus 5000 has only one pair of disconnects in its transfer switch. NRS097-2-1 requires two. The Multiplus-II has two series switches and a test certificate from Primara. Hence the former is not on the list and the latter is. But as you might have seen from another thread... there are some concerns about SANS and islanding. I didn't think I would say it, but I get the feeling Cape Town is about to mess this up good.