1 hour ago, PJJ said:

the 5Kva unit is apparently already released

Correct. A small number of units have been sold already, but it's very early in the product cycle.

They started with the 3KVA model because that is by far the most popular model. They sell that one like Plascon sells Micatex... (they have more interesting products higher up, but that is the one the ordinary guy buys 🙂 ).

2 minutes ago, plonkster said:

... ordinary guy ...

So now you call me ordinary guy ... now that is a first. 😉

( YOU did see that one coming? )

48 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

 - send me a PM with the names of whom you dealt with? Reason I ask is that maybe I have some more names for you to chat to, you and your engineer. 

 

Thanks for the offer - I first want to discuss the way forward with my tame Engineer. He was very upbeat about this when he took on the job - says he knows all the guys at COCT as well as the prof that wrote the NRS doc. So let me give him a chance to pull his strings. If they hold and he manages we will have a good reference case that other Victron users may use pretty much verbatim. I am not too optimistic and kind of understand were COCT is coming from. It is the traditional case of don't rock the boat - i.e. do not make a decision that could count against you. The safe decision for any bureaucrat is  the one where the decision is not his. In this case if he lives by the list he cannot get into trouble. It means he cannot make a mistake and bureaucrats that don't make mistakes, as we all know, get promoted. 

1 minute ago, The Bulldog said:

I first want to discuss the way forward ...

Now THAT is encouraging. We need cool and calm minds.

Respect.

2 hours ago, plonkster said:

It comes down to this. That NRS097-2-1 (and VDE-AR-N-4105, the German one) requires a two-series relay disconnect which the standard Multiplus doesn't have (that's fine for a UPS, but not for a hybrid). But the standard Multiplus has active anti-islanding, so combining it with a Ziehl UFR-1001e ticks all the boxes, and complies with NRS097-2-1.

There is however no test certificate for this combination. There is one for the Ziehl only.

From the email above it is clear that a higher-up instructed an employee to do things a certain way, that is to say, I get the feeling Cape Town is not presently equipped to deal with the more difficult cases. Don't have the capacity or something.

If I can ask Cape Town just one question, it would be to explain the presence of the Ziehl device on the list. It is a Passive anti-islanding switch. It can only be used with another device that implements at least one active measure. Its very existence on the list hints towards the existence of such devices... 🙂

Of course, if one were to ask, it might just get the Ziehl dropped.

I suspect they don't really know what the Ziehl is or how it operates?

 

Or, as you say, since it doesn't have certification, they probably don't want to go down that road?

20 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

On another note, If the entire setup is registered as off-grid, with all the grid tied safeties in place, who is to stop anyone to run it either way. Like a knock on the door from a official, flick that switch, disconnect that wire, and system is as registered. 🤔

It starts small like this, and before you know it ,you're not paying your TV licence.

 

2 minutes ago, phil.g00 said:

It starts small like this, and before you know it ,you're not paying your TV licence.

 

What do you mean, "before you know it" ... ? 🤔 
P.S. What is a TV license?

2 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

P.S. What is a TV license?

The other reason there is a knock at the door.

I wonder if @The Terrible Triplett can do the whole Che Guevara profile thing for the T-shirts?

Just now, phil.g00 said:

The other reason there is a knock at the door.

I wonder if @The Terrible Triplett can do the whole Che Guevara profile thing for the T-shirts?

I normally call security if there's unexpected knocks at the door  They just escort anyone without my consent away 

11 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

I normally call security if there's unexpected knocks at the door  They just escort anyone without my consent away 

You gotta have henchmen, it would be rude not to.

19 minutes ago, phil.g00 said:

The other reason there is a knock at the door.

I wonder if @The Terrible Triplett can do the whole Che Guevara profile thing for the T-shirts?

Can do anything. What do you need? 😀

36 minutes ago, phil.g00 said:

On another note, If the entire setup is registered as off-grid, with all the grid tied safeties in place, who is to stop anyone to run it either way. Like a knock on the door from a official, flick that switch, disconnect that wire, and system is as registered. 🤔

 

17 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Can do anything. What do you need? 😀

Don't start the revolution without me. 

2 hours ago, phil.g00 said:

It starts small like this, and before you know it ,you're not paying your TV licence.

Oh... two videos for you guys, on the topic of slippery slopes!

This one shows your age... who remembers Kazaa?

And this one...

 

12 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Oh... two videos for you guys, on the topic of slippery slopes!

This one shows your age... who remembers Kazaa?

And this one...

 

Kazaa.... Need I say more? Though I prefer Vuze 

2 hours ago, phil.g00 said:

Don't start the revolution without me. 

It has already started. 😀

OK, it's official. My tame Electrical Engineer went as far as he could taking it to the top.

COCT will not accept any inverter connected to the grid if it is not on their list. It does not matter if you have external anti-islanding or not.
It does not matter what certifications your inverter complies with - if it is not on the list your application is rejected outright and immediately.

You have to use these off grid (which is a bit of an issue with a grid-tie inverter) and the installation must comply with SANS. SANS is a bit limited as it does not take all possible scenarios into account so be aware of this before you apply for an off-grid solution.

It seems by far most solar installations in COCT do not comply and cannot comply easily and the city is expecting these to be removed. Also, according to some reports only 2% of off-grid applications are accepted. Make sure if you go off-grid everything is off-grid and there is a complete disconnection (including neutrals). The same goes for a split system if you leave some non-essential loads connected to grid. You have to split the neutrals - there must not be any connection whatsoever. Depending on your properties wiring, this can prove a challenge.

I see that CoCT have published a revised list of approved Inverters - dated 27 Feb 2019.

See http://resource.capetown.gov.za/documentcentre/Documents/Forms, notices, tariffs and lists/Approved Photovoltaic (PV) Inverter List.pdf

2 hours ago, The Bulldog said:

COCT will not accept any inverter connected to the grid if it is not on their list. It does not matter if you have external anti-islanding or not.
It does not matter what certifications your inverter complies with - if it is not on the list your application is rejected outright and immediately. 

I'm actually okay with that, with two additional caveats:

1. How do you get your inverter onto the list? We already know that one way is to get it tested by a testing house. Are there other ways?

2. What about the small print at the bottom: "This list is for information purposes only and the use thereof as a guideline for the selection of a device is at the sole risk of the user. " I thought the implication of that is that the list is a guideline, while NRS097-2-1 compliance was the rule (ie, if you could demonstrate compliance you could get it passed)... it now seems the list is the rule.

I hope that in time Cape Town will sort this out. Truth be told... since about December I really feel like moving. My property tax is getting insane...

1 hour ago, plonkster said:

since about December I really feel like moving

me too!!! very disappointed how the CoCT (and SA) is handling this. I thought that they were actually serious about the "green city" idea and I told all my friends in Europe how proud I am to live here. Not anymore. Compared to the process to connect a GTI in Switzerland (based on my sisters recent installation of a 6kW system) our red tapes are a joke 😞.  

I get the impression that they don't have the capacity to deal with the magnitude of "the problem". Because of energy costs and load shedding and no real national regulations (Nersa etc), installations probably exploded with no oversight. Now there are numerous products out there, some good, some bad, and one can almost have sympathy for the small band of people who now have to make sense of it. No wonder the due date was extended. I suspect this is why they are only approving the "easy" cases right now, those systems that definitely have the paperwork.

I kinda understand how the Axpert owners feel now. Well, it is worse actually: You have people who spent money on quality systems precisely to avoid this situation, only to find themselves in the same place.

And then there is still the note under the list about hybrid battery inverters requiring some kind of external changeover. And if you ask them what it is about they send you a picture of the regulations (the ones you didn't understand in the first place)...

What a mess...

2 hours ago, plonkster said:

What a mess...

Yeah - it's frustrating.

I think most here are responsible and willing to follow a reasonable process to ensure our installs are safe for ourselves, our neighbours and city staff.

But the process has just ended up SO confusing and complicated.  The documents are not clear in my opinion.

I wrote up what I didn't understand and sent it to Karel and it seems what I don't understand are exactly the points that aren't clear to him.

And I don't think they are clear to the administrators of this process either.

So my inverter is "on the list".  It also (supposedly) supports a Modbus card so I can use an energy meter at the main feed from the grid to ensure no nett outflow to the grid and avoid having to pay for the 2 way meter which doesn't really make sense for me.

And it has anti-islanding.

So am I done?  Is that acceptable to grid-tie it? I'm really not sure.  If I might need other devices then I'm really not sure how to find out what I might need.

At the moment my inverter has no panels so its a UPS.  So it just needs a CoC and otherwise no need to register it and more than I would register a APC under my desk.

This might be where I should stop - I've got load shedding protection for my computer stuff and could keep the lights and some basic stuff going.

If I add panels - which I want to do, in order to improve my return on investment, then what?

Maybe I should just make it off-grid.  But the regs hobble it.  They say it may not be connected to the grid and _cannot_ be connected to the grid.  I suppose that means I must disconnect the mains input completely: like remove the wires, the input breaker etc.  That's what @The Bulldog wrote above and I think that is the way the wording goes.

Which means I must limit the loads to what I am confident can be reliably supplied by the panels even when the weather is crap.

That of course is a shame since on most days a lot of energy will go to waste.

My inverter can easily be configured to never push back on the input side but it seems that isn't good enough?

On the other hand if I apply for grid-tie on some basis it seems it will be many many months before I can actually commission it.  And very unclear what design is acceptable.  It feels like it could cost 10s of 1000s of rands to get it all done and that really kills the cost-benefit.

So I'm willing but feel unable and actually absolutely unclear as to what I should do.

 

 

Edited March 1, 20197 yr by Elbow

Eish folks, let's all enjoy the weekend first!

All of this is certainly quite frustrating, but we do seem to find ourselves on the cutting edge of the regulatory side of these developments. CoCT is moving, just extremely slowly, and they're unfortunately not doing the best job of communicating.

Let's see what happens the coming weeks, especially with the new German regulations expert they have contracted for the coming two years. I'll try and get more info the coming week on the where and the when and the how.

 

 

what I do not get is why South Africa with limited resources wants to have more restrictive costly regulations than most of the developed world.

Why is it perfectly ok and safe to connect Axperts in Australia? Why can inverters like the old Victron's be grid tied without an expensive second anti islanding device? Why can an electrician in Switzerland connect a GTI without an engineer and a 20 page document?

The more I learn about our situation the more I come to the conclusion that it has nothing to do with safety.

Yes Fuenklie, that is my feeling as well. The safety aspect does not appear to come into it even though this is quoted as the main reason behind all this.

And BTW, the Victrons you mention are not even accepted with external anti-islanding. Despite a document from Victron quoting this as NRS-097 compliant. There is seemingly no provision on Cape Towns list for split systems. Nevermind parallel grid operation with hybrid systems. Just has not been considered.

Interestingly there are inverters on Cape Towns list that are in fact not certified to NRS-097. The manufacturer simply issues a statement of conformance for example based on an existing VDE certification. NRS-097 is largely based on VDE but with larger tolerances (except for low voltage limits on the codes).

No reason I can see why Victron and others could not do the same quoting external anti-islanding.

 

1 hour ago, The Bulldog said:

The manufacturer simply issues a statement of conformance for example based on an existing VDE certification

I believe there are only two manufacturers who did that. The one was MLT, and you will note they are no longer on the list. The other one that tried was a local battery maker who uses the Voltronic inverter, I don't know what happened but I am pretty sure CoCT is not going to accept their report or already rejected it. I didn't follow up on the endeavour.

1 hour ago, The Bulldog said:

Despite a document from Victron quoting this as NRS-097 compliant

I think the trouble is that the document merely states that such compliance is reached, it is not an official test certificate. There is however a test certificate for the Ziehl anti-islanding device, which I believe ticks all the boxes EXCEPT the requirement of one ACTIVE anti-islanding (something that has to be inplemented by the inverter). Now if you look down the long string of certificates the Multi (and all Quattros) have, it includes one for IEC62116, that is: We have active measures.

And as pointed out, NS097 is largely based on VDE AR N 4105, and as pointed out as well, the Multis and Quattros do have VDE compliance...

In other words, if someone was willing to go to the effort, it should be no problem... hence my suspicion that they simply don't have the resources. They probably have a few qualified electrical engineers who cannot possibly know all the systems out there... and then they have a couple of guys handling the paperwork, essentially rejecting anything that is not on the list.