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Victron behaviour


PaBz0r

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  • 2 weeks later...
9 hours ago, Ironman said:

It seems my MP II 5000 has the same problem. Exactly the same symptoms. Any update on this?

My installer is busy doing a RMA on the Inverter. The installer gave me his loan unit to use in the meantime. I suggest getting into contact with your supplier/installer and mention your symptoms, I also proved that the ambient wasn't to blame etc. and mentioned the threads on others failing from victron community with similar behaviour.

Can you confirm if yours is also on loads smaller than 3kW? Your hardware revision number of the Unit? Mine was HW3, the current loan unit is HW4. 

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Is the HW4 unit better at delivering 4kw outputs?

27 minutes ago, PaBz0r said:

 

Can you confirm if yours is also on loads smaller than 3kW? 


My unit acts like it is a MPII 3000. Works perfectly under 2400watt loads.  As the loads increase above that level, it only pushes out 2400w.

In terms of the ambient temperature: I see the same thing happen at 4am, when the air temp is about 12C. 

Where do you see the hw version?C02A27F8-050B-4F03-8DE4-AB34C6E1CC0B.thumb.jpeg.3585ca22a4bf248aef193c86e017456e.jpeg

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6 minutes ago, Ironman said:


Is the HW4 unit better at delivering 4kw outputs?

 

Not sure what the difference is, the HW3 was the first of the 5010 Units, where they changed the wiring of the Non-Essential internally.

8 minutes ago, Ironman said:


My unit acts like it is a MPII 3000. Works perfectly under 2400watt loads.  As the loads increase above that level, it only pushes out 2400w.

In terms of the ambient temperature: I see the same thing happen at 4am, when the air temp is about 12C. 

Sounds the same as mine, can you confirm that you are getting VE.Bus Warnings / Errors from the Widget?

9 minutes ago, Ironman said:

Where do you see the hw version?

Check the serial number sticker on the box or inside the unit, right bottom by the cover.  

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2 hours ago, Ironman said:

Confirmed: I have HW3.  Lots of temperature alarms yesterday:

4B0D285F-EAA2-4D42-987C-31E5B08EA3AA.thumb.jpeg.f35156cd25b4929d889632f7e08d8038.jpeg

@phil.g00 also mentioned to check DC side that everything is tight and up to spec.

Get in contact with the supplier if you can't find further fault. My friend had his installed two weeks after mine and did this a few times but not in the last month or so. So it is luck of the draw how they react and if it is genuinely related to temperature or a false positive.

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Feedback -  I have been told that the unit will be replaced by Victron.  Still to be approved by distributors.  In the mean time, it seems to be getting worse:

1992121460_Annotation2019-10-27132106.png.aff0293cce2f9c521fb25cdd498787e6.png

At this point in time, the MP II 5000 is generating only about 800 Watt.  I have seen the system switch off the inverter completely too.  All due to false overheating reading internal to the MP II.

These two graphs show that the system draws way too much energy from the grid.  All of the consumption is under 4000W.  All of it should be carried by the inverter.  In stead, the inverter is (falsely) temperature-limiting, and draws energy from the grid.

429972894_Annotation2019-10-27133715.thumb.png.f3d172f287170ef91afe4b9212441f06.png

I am planning to give feedback as to how the new unit performs, but this could take about two weeks.

Edited by Ironman
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On 2019/10/27 at 1:29 PM, Ironman said:

I am planning to give feedback as to how the new unit performs, but this could take about two weeks.

Please let me know and also which HW version you do get. The loan unit I have at the moment seems fine, have chucked the normal and abnormal at it without any issues. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Disclaimer - I switched on the Multiplus while its case was opened.  This is dangerous since there are high voltages and currents all over the place. On this forum, we are all interested in power, but power can be dangerous.  Do not do this unless you know what you are doing.  If you open the box - at your own risk - do not touch anything inside.  The unit could be receiving AC power even when switched off.


This is the problem with the Hardware Revision 3 unit:  The one screw that has to transfer all the current to the low voltage side of the transformer is not capable of carrying the current.  It glows red hot when drawing about 2000 Watt:

You can also see the glowing screw through the air vents at the bottom of the unit:

3c786627-4ae3-4be2-9d7f-8513a6d47df1.thumb.jpg.dda2697bd0ed2feca8657523f39d6b02.jpg

 

According to the incandescence page of wikipedia, that screw is at about 900C. It is not transferring the current or the heat properly to the heatsink like it should.

After a few weeks of operating like this, the screw looks very rusted - and it even seems to start damaging the aluminium heatsink.  If you leave a unit like this in the field, it could fail catastrophically when the screw burns through.

b3fea526-a041-4c40-8cf7-c7ebfbf7d336.thumb.jpg.c1c0c4232c0aec8539e7a7ff946b28e5.jpg

 

Roughly speaking, that screw could be transferring all the current on the low voltage side of the transformer - and at 4000W that would be 4000W / 50V = 80 Amp.

Lets say there is a 2V voltage drop over the screw - that would mean 2V * 80A = 160 Watt in heat.  That would heat up the small heatsink very quickly.

That explains why the HWR 3 Multiplus II gave so many over temperature warnings - and also decreased the output power - down to about 800W at worst. It also wasted a lot of the battery energy in heat, in stead of output electrical power.

The Hardware Revision 4 unit has new larger bolts, with copper washers, in place of all the current carrying screws.  This bolt is in the place of the glowing screw:

d82155a1-9964-48f7-86a4-bf41ba4a861c.thumb.jpg.7f62f478a0c36a30312d528c1e10fcaf.jpg

And here you can see the new unit delivering about 4500W: ( switched on all the lights in and outside my house, and the 1500W borehole pump, and the 1600W double toaster!)

163353296_Annotation2019-11-10204909.png.bb83c72f7c654a688f937701e751ec3e.png

---Please note - the inverter is drawing 102 Amp continuously from the Pylontech batteries---

 

Bonus:  The inverter is installed on the outside of our main bedroom wall - and the HWR 4 is much quieter that the HWR 3 unit was!  The transformer hum is much less pronounced, and obviously the fan kicks in much less frequently since the new unit is generating much less heat.

 

Victron authorised a n RMA without receiving the faulty unit first, after inspecting the operating conditions over the internet. This allowed me to change over at a convenient time. 

Thanks @Jaco de Jongh for re - programming the new unit, and setting up ESS again.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Ironman said:

and at 4000W that would be 4000W / 50V = 80 Amp.

If that is supplying all the current to the LV side of the transformer then it is more likely about 28Vac on a 48V inverter, so the current is much higher (more than 140A at 4kW).

Even the new larger screw with brass washers looks a little inadequate to me. I would use a brass bolt with brass flat washer and a bronze spring washer to make sure it stays tight. 

 

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14 hours ago, Ironman said:

is not capable of carrying the current

Right... since the cat is out of the bag now... 🙂

The problem is not the size. The size is fine. The problem is that the bolt/screw was of the wrong material. This was a manufacturing fault, not a design fault. A relatively small number of units were affected, and as you noted, the manufacturer stepped up and took care of it 🙂

 

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15 hours ago, Ironman said:

That explains why the HWR 3 Multiplus II gave so many over temperature warnings - and also decreased the output power - down to about 800W at worst. It also wasted a lot of the battery energy in heat, in stead of output electrical power.

I also felt my battery was draining "more" than normal during that period. Glad you have a new unit, I am still waiting for mine to be sorted, loan unit still powering on happily, so definitely seems sorted in HW4.

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1 minute ago, PaBz0r said:

Seems he has 4 of them, idling :P 

hahahahahaha!!! looks like that!!! And i'm busy shopping around for Lithium and checking what my option will be for my MLT. Pylonteh or Revov or what i can find for a good price. 

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2 minutes ago, PaBz0r said:

Pylons seem to be living up to claims so far: http://batterytestcentre.com.au/reports/

 

 

 

I spotted the review the other day and the one in June. What i like about the Pylon's is that you can buy and add more later on and they will not cost you arm every time but it's going to take you longer to get to a bigger set to Kw specs. Where with the 4.8kw and 5.12kw batteries and like the revov that is 10.2kw a set, in one buy  you get some good kw's but it will cost you a arm and a leg and a kidney to upgrade to more Kw's  later on. 

Still split between what to go for. It's allot of money. 

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18 minutes ago, Gerlach said:

I spotted the review the other day and the one in June. What i like about the Pylon's is that you can buy and add more later on and they will not cost you arm every time but it's going to take you longer to get to a bigger set to Kw specs. Where with the 4.8kw and 5.12kw batteries and like the revov that is 10.2kw a set, in one buy  you get some good kw's but it will cost you a arm and a leg and a kidney to upgrade to more Kw's  later on. 

Still split between what to go for. It's allot of money. 

Prices are coming down, so maybe going a bit smaller and adding as you can is not a bad idea. REVOV is very tempting, I would feel more comfortable if they had been around a few more years. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Stanley said:

so the current is much higher (more than 140A at 4kW)

🙂 I don't know the details of the design - just trying to show that there would be a lot of heat generated if there is a voltage drop across the screw.

I also know that - with HW Rev 4, when delivering 4500 Watt, the average current draw for the batteries are 102 Amp, at 4950 Watt. So there are about 450 Watt lost due to the inversion inefficiency. 

And thus, that at 4000W, the current drawn from the battery is likely to be about 102*4000/4500 = 90 Amp.

Rough figures.  None of these measurements are very accurate - but I think it is would be less than 140 Amp.

 

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