Cape Town "Approved" list of Inverters Question

[AndrewRyan]

Hi

Looking for some advice, I am looking to do a solar install for my house and am looking at the Luxpower 5kw off grid inverter but I see this isn't on the approved list by City of Cape Town. I see the Hybrid version is on there, but before I spend the extra to get the hybrid version, is there any reason the CoC wouldnt be approved with the off-grid?

I am not looking to feed back power to grid. 

Thanks

[Kloon]

You basically answered your own question, off-grid vs hybrid. The list of approved inverters are only for when you connect to the grid, if you are not connecting to the grid then COCT does not have a say as it does not affect them.

The list only applies to NRS 097-2-1 which is for grid interconnection.

[AndrewRyan]

Thanks, have decided to go proper hybrid that is NRS approved as want to be able to top up from grid as needed. 

[Redge]

Ok, I dont understand, if you are able to pop up from the grid with your hybrid, then you are connected to the grid?

[Redge]

The way I see it, any inverter that cannot feed back into the grid should be on the approved list.

Does anybody know what exactely NRS 097-2-1 requieres?

It would help if we could see the exact specifications

Does any body know when this list was created?

Please help

[BTTB]

I'm also confused with the COCT. 

Just got a message from the Solar Panel Installer that my Off Grid Inverter is not on the COCT approved list.
When you check the COCT approved list of Inverters recently updated on the 22nd of February 2023, there isn't any Off Grid Inverters listed there.

By Off Grid Inverter, I don't mean Off the Grid. I mean an inverter that is not grid tied but requires either line, battery, solar or a combination to be able to work. The Inverter itself is unable to feed back into the grid. 

So, correct me, do I need to buy a grid-tied inverter to be able to install solar panels and that no off-grid inverters are allowed with a solar installation. 

This would entail me having to buy another inverter, when I already have a perfectly good working one, just be satisfy some weird requirement. 
I'm not interested in feeding power back into the grid, besides electricity can only flow one way and with an off-grid inverter even more so. 

Unless everyone is reading the whole thing wrong.
I've phoned the COCT number and left a message on their number, nobody answers either.

Edited March 9, 2023 by BTTB

[Scorp007]

6 minutes ago, BTTB said:

I'm also confused with the COCT. 

Just got a message from the Solar Panel Installer that my Off Grid Inverter is not on the COCT approved list.
When you check the COCT approved list of Inverters recently updated on the 22nd of February 2023, there isn't any Off Grid Inverters listed there.

By Off Grid Inverter, I don't mean Off the Grid, I mean exactly that, an inverter that is not grid tied but requires either line, battery, solar or a combination to be able to work. The Inverter itself does not feed back into the grid. 

So, correct me, I need to buy a grid-tied inverter to be able to install solar panels. 
Not one off-grid inverter listed.

This would entail me having to buy another inverter, just be satisfy some weird requirement. 
I'm not interested in feeding power back into the grid, besides electricity can only flow one way and with an off-grid inverter even more so. 

Unless everyone is reading the whole thing wrong.
I've phoned the COCT number and left a message on their number, nobody answers either.

My way of looking at it and guys like Steve87 can give the correct status 

Only grid tied are on the COCT list as the need to be approved as they CAN feed back. Off grid inverters need not be on the list as they are grid connected but cannot feed back. 

[Steve87]

@BTTByour Installer is spot on. The approval is based on the NRS 097-2-1. These requirements are for grid interactive inverters. Ie. Grid tied inverters interacts with the grid. The Kodak off grid inverter cannot grid feed. It's termed Off grid because it can only supply loads on the Essential side only. 

Grid tieing technology needs to be approved in different parts of the world. Main reason is that the Grid codes differ ever so slightly etc. The main reason for the Lab testing is to prove no defects when the machine synchronises with the grid & also to test it's Islanding ability when the grid is lost. In other words the Grid goes down & it must stop the grid interaction. 

You will not find any off grid inverters on that list. They are termed "non grid interactive".

 

[Scorp007]

On 2022/04/25 at 5:45 PM, AndrewRyan said:

Thanks, have decided to go proper hybrid that is NRS approved as want to be able to top up from grid as needed. 

Off grid can still top up from the grid. I do agree a true hybrid is a better choice for our LS with us for 5+ years to come. 

Refer to the reply from Steve87. 

[BTTB]

16 hours ago, Steve87 said:

@BTTByour Installer is spot on. The approval is based on the NRS 097-2-1. These requirements are for grid interactive inverters. Ie. Grid tied inverters interacts with the grid. The Kodak off grid inverter cannot grid feed. It's termed Off grid because it can only supply loads on the Essential side only. 

Grid tieing technology needs to be approved in different parts of the world. Main reason is that the Grid codes differ ever so slightly etc. The main reason for the Lab testing is to prove no defects when the machine synchronises with the grid & also to test it's Islanding ability when the grid is lost. In other words the Grid goes down & it must stop the grid interaction. 

You will not find any off grid inverters on that list. They are termed "non grid interactive".

 

Hi Steve

Thanks for your input.

I'm still a little confused here with COCT requirements. 

I understand that if your inverter is grid-tied you need to comply to certain codes and tests in order to be sure that the inverter knows when to stop grid interaction.

What I am reading, the COCT will not accept any off-grid or non-interactive inverters with a solar panel installation, is this correct. 
You can have an Off Grid Inverter supplying power to a battery and a separate DB with critical loads, but if want to add solar panels, you are not allowed, even if the installation was done according to the rules and regulations and has a COC. 

[WannabeSolarSparky]

20 minutes ago, BTTB said:

What I am reading, the COCT will not accept any off-grid or non-interactive inverters with a solar panel installation, is this correct. 
You can have an Off Grid Inverter supplying power to a battery and a separate DB with critical loads, but if want to add solar panels, you are not allowed, even if the installation was done according to the rules and regulations and has a COC.

My opinion only,

If you are off-grid (NOT Feeding back to the providers grid) then you do not need approval if you add panels. It's then the same as a ups IMHO.
Also, everything that happens after the meter is your own personal business as long as it is safe (C.o.C, electrical and structural requirements etc especially for insurance purposes)
Your off-grid setup will/should have a Transfer switch which isolates it from your providers supply if your installation was done correctly.

Maybe some of the more legalese inclined minds can better shed some light on this

[BTTB]

23 minutes ago, WannabeSolarSparky said:

My opinion only,

If you are off-grid (NOT Feeding back to the providers grid) then you do not need approval if you add panels. It's then the same as a ups IMHO.
Also, everything that happens after the meter is your own personal business as long as it is safe (C.o.C, electrical and structural requirements etc especially for insurance purposes)
Your off-grid setup will/should have a Transfer switch which isolates it from your providers supply if your installation was done correctly.

Maybe some of the more legalese inclined minds can better shed some light on this

I'm so confused, plus the COCT don't answer phones or emails.

I've attached a pic for easy reference.
11Kw Off-grid Axpert Inverter
My original flush DB Board with non-critical loads (Stove, Geyser, Jacuzzi, Urn etc)
Secondary DB Board with critical loads, Earth Leakage and Main Switch
Small box is the Generator Input 32A with 60A Changeover.
PB-11 AC Input and Output Distribution Board 
3 x AM2 with 160A fuse

All this installation needs is the PV input and its done. 
But I must chuck out a perfectly good inverter and buy something else, apparently?
 

Edited March 9, 2023 by BTTB

[BTTB]

Well, Snap, here I am typing about all this stuff and the COCT calls me. 
Explained to them the system, said they'll email me with line drawings etc. 
Seems the door is open. 

[WannabeSolarSparky]

40 minutes ago, BTTB said:

I'm so confused, plus the COCT don't answer phones or emails.

I've attached a pic for easy reference.
11Kw Off-grid Axpert Inverter
My original flush DB Board with non-critical loads (Stove, Geyser, Jacuzzi, Urn etc)
Secondary DB Board with critical loads, Earth Leakage and Main Switch
Small box is the Generator Input 32A with 60A Changeover.
PB-11 AC Input and Output Distribution Board 
3 x AM2 with 160A fuse

All this installation needs is the PV input and its done. 
But I must chuck out a perfectly good inverter and buy something else, apparently?
 

Did you get a C.o.C for that nice neat install??

[Steve87]

The COCT are very reasonable, all they are striving for is safe compliant installations. It's a pain yes. But how important is safety & regulation. Ask a oke who's home has burnt down if it was important. 

There is so many crazy installs & fully fledged corner cutting. I have just returned from a 2 week project trip to Durban. What I saw was harrowing. Non compliance, crazy at times supply chain shortages in some very weird stuff like PVC conduit & Sprague. 

Mix that together with almost a hand full of master electricians I requested for installation compliance inspections that had no concept of why a Neutral Earth relay is required. 

I don't live in Cape Town nor do I like lots of red tape but at least they try to make legit of a very specialised field that needs regulation. 

I think we need to find a balance between red tape & some very good sound education especially amongst the master electricians. 2 weeks course of the P4 AREP course or PV Green card does offer very little. Don't get me wrong it helps & it's a good initiative. However, we need the master electricians on board quickly. 

[BTTB]

1 hour ago, WannabeSolarSparky said:

Did you get a C.o.C for that nice neat install??

Thank you.

When the Solar is done, I'll get the COC from him or if required beforehand, that too. Solar guy has quoted for COC and the COCT Reg. We spoke at length about it being a prerequisite for this install.

I'm also paranoid about the panels been earthed at both the DB and separately into the ground.
We had lightning here last year at the Telkom Tower next to our property, it tripped the board, a surge of electricity flowed down the Telkom lines and fried the ISDN Box, the PABX, two Monitors and even a CCTV Camera. It was a massive strike. A roof with panels would present a nice target for an electric storm, althought the Telkom Tower should theoretically get the brunt of such a strike.
Yep, Cape Town, lighting strikes do happen. 

I watched the Electrician do the work; he doesn't touch anything that isn't right. Had to wait a week for a 60A Changeover as he refused to install a 40A Changeover for the Generator and those 60A Changeovers were in quite short supply about a month ago.

I'm confident my electrician did his work properly.

  

47 minutes ago, Steve87 said:

The COCT are very reasonable, all they are striving for is safe compliant installations. It's a pain yes. But how important is safety & regulation. Ask a oke who's home has burnt down if it was important. 

 

A chap called Morgan called me today from the COCT, sounded like a pretty reasonable chap after I explained to him what I had done, see pics above. Said he would send line drawings, basically they didn't close the door on me is what made me feel a whole lot better.
After spending between about R135 and R150K you seriously don't want to fork out another 50 to 60K for a 12 or 14KW Sunsynk or Dye.
Notwithstanding the cost of 20 x 540W Solar Panels, cabling, labour, COC etc.

Edited March 9, 2023 by BTTB

[sgs]

Grid tied = can feed back and blend power from grid with PV and battery.  These inverters need to be on the COCT's list, and requires a long approval process, engineer's sign-off, possibly 'reverse flow blocking' etc.  Inverters like e.g. Sunsynk fall in this category.

Off-grid = cannot feed back, only consume grid power to charge batteries or drive the load.  e.g. a glorified UPS - it will use either battery and solar to feed the load or grid - but will never "bridge" the loads with the grid input directly, therefore canot feed back.  This inverter does not need to be on COCT's list, and does not need an engineer's sign-off - only a COC from an electrician.  If it is linked to solar panels, it needs to be registered, but not "approved" as such, by submitting a line drawing and COC to the city.  (They claim this is purely so that they don't hassle you if they see you have panels on your roof.)  Typically Axpert type off-grid inverters fall into this category.

I've been through both approval processes with two properties and the off-grid registration was really just a rubber-stamp exercise - as long as your COC is valid and you haven't done something stupid, they will send you an approval letter.

[Dieter]

There are a few application types

• GRID-TIED SSEG
• GRID-TIED HYBRID SSEG
• STANDBY SSEG
• OFF-GRID

https://www.capetown.gov.za/City-Connect/Apply/Municipal-services/Electricity/apply-for-authorisation-to-install-a-small-scale-embedded-generation-system

The 2 x Grid Tied applications must have one of the City of Cape Town approved inverters

The Standby and Off-Grid applications you cannot use any inverter on the City of Cape Town list (I know , why not, that is the process)

If you still need some power from Grid you will be Standby Segg application

If you totally off-grid and not not need any power from grid then you will be Off-grid application

 

 

 

[Steve87]

Gents very glad that some clarity is finally being made on this matter...Too many misconceptions on what is & not allowed. My personal opinion is that the Off grid inverter offers heaps of value for self consumption purposes. The 8kW Sunsynk is a Boss of a machine but when you see a 7.2kW Kodak at half the money it makes you think which offers the best value. 

By the way the Kodak can blend power sources very effectively with Grid, solar & battery. It actually also uses Grid tied technology, it just does not offer Bi-directional AC input. It was also never invented to do so, so hence not on their list. They not interested in it. 

So guys in Cape town if an installer is selling you the bull dust of it must be on the list tell him to fly a kite

[BTTB]

On 2023/03/09 at 5:12 PM, sgs said:

Off-grid = cannot feed back, only consume grid power to charge batteries or drive the load.  e.g. a glorified UPS - it will use either battery and solar to feed the load or grid - but will never "bridge" the loads with the grid input directly, therefore canot feed back.  This inverter does not need to be on COCT's list, and does not need an engineer's sign-off - only a COC from an electrician.  If it is linked to solar panels, it needs to be registered, but not "approved" as such, by submitting a line drawing and COC to the city.  (They claim this is purely so that they don't hassle you if they see you have panels on your roof.)  Typically Axpert type off-grid inverters fall into this category.

I've been through both approval processes with two properties and the off-grid registration was really just a rubber-stamp exercise - as long as your COC is valid and you haven't done something stupid, they will send you an approval letter.

Some assistance please.
So, my system is an Axpert Inverter with Batteries, a glorified UPS as you describe, see pics above.
A chap from the COCT contacted me 2 weeks ago and said he'd send me some "line drawings".
After another phone call and email I was emailed a link to a FAQ Brochure of irrelevant information, not helpful and he still didn't send the Line Drawings.
Can you help, post a link, image or attachemnt, or describe what this "line drawing" should look like so I can give it to the electrician who would also be doing the COC.

Got the quote for the panels and will hope to proceed once I have the approval. 
 

Edited March 18, 2023 by BTTB

[Dieter]

The line drawing guide/objects/components/glossary is on the City of Cape Town website

https://resource.capetown.gov.za/documentcentre/Documents/Procedures, guidelines and regulations/Embedded generation schematic drawings SK5276.pdf

Depending on your layout the line drawing is done using those components

 

 

[Redge]

Am I right if if say you can install the battery and a hybrid  inverter which is on the approval list, and thereafter apply for a approval to fit Panels on the roof.

Then at least if the approval process takes months the residents don't have to put up with loadshedding?

[Redge]

Also, if you already installed a off grid axpert inverter with battery and panels and you have a COC, can you still apply for the registration of an off grid installation afterwards?

[Dieter]

On 2023/03/20 at 8:41 AM, Redge said:

Am I right if if say you can install the battery and a hybrid  inverter which is on the approval list, and thereafter apply for a approval to fit Panels on the roof.

Then at least if the approval process takes months the residents don't have to put up with loadshedding?

Yes but if you install an inverter on the approved list you will need engineer sign-off , non-neg. on all approved list inverters

[Dieter]

On 2023/03/20 at 8:46 AM, Redge said:

Also, if you already installed a off grid axpert inverter with battery and panels and you have a COC, can you still apply for the registration of an off grid installation afterwards?

Yes/No ,this is the process, when you apply for registration , you apply for approval to install the pv panels

On approval , you get an official letter, you get 3 month to install the pv panels

Within the 3 months you submit the COC and line drawings  , then you wait for final approval letter of commission to switch on PV

Edited March 30, 2023 by Dieter