On 4/14/2017 at 7:03 PM, Don said:

... equalize ... for about 12 hours ...

You will NEVER EVER equalise for 12 hours. Maybe an hour or so every month, maybe once every 6 months DEPENDING ON USE.

And there is not much wrong to take a day or more to charge a battery to full, as long as it gets to float and can sit there as per manufacturers specs.

And Trojan's are rated at 1600 cycles to 50% DOD "guaranteed", after that point they are something like 80%. So they can still go a while after that. DEPENDING ON USE.

 

On 4/16/2017 at 9:42 AM, Don said:

... making life a lot easier for all its customers.

They do. Most charge controllers can be set to what the batteries need. Outback, Victron, Morningstar, all of the name brand know that battery manufacturers have reasons for different settings. So it is not the battery manufacturers that must adjust, the MPPT manufacturer must adjust their software and caps to accommodate.

 

On 4/15/2017 at 9:15 PM, Chris Hobson said:

... which can only do 90k ...

WRONG!!!  it is 110km/h!

If you want speed, don't get an Isuzu, we get there, eventually, but we get there ... and we don't mind rough terrain either, nor potholes and no, we do not do have kidney stones either.

Nothing like an Isuzu engine starting in the early crisp cool morning air, when they are at their optimal performance. And at 2100rpm (60km/h in 4th gear), you can pull anything and drive anywhere where conditions are less than ideal - LEKKER!. But high speeds, over 3100 rpm (110km/h), forget that, you just make a lot more noise and cannot overtake for shitte, unless it is on a downhill or going down a mine shaft ... but then the wind becomes a bother.

So max 110km/h - going up the hill, down the hill, on the straights - 110km/h day in and day out, year after year, decade after decade for 500 000+ km is ok for them ... but only at MAX 110km/h. 

Ps. Yes they can go 140km/h if really pushed ... but then they just do not last.

2 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

You will NEVER EVER equalise for 12 hours. Maybe an hour or so every month, maybe once every 6 months DEPENDING ON USE.

No, the correct answer is you equalize and take specific gravity readings EVERY HOUR until the specific gravity no longer increases and then charge it for another 3 hours. You can Google it. Here are some examples: 

What does "DEPENDING ON USE" mean? If you use them on a solar system with solar panels and an inverter, you use them every day, 24/7.

How often to equalize? That  ranges quite a bit.

I would say that your specific gravity tells you when have low or wide ranging specific gravity (>0.030) between cells after fully charging a battery.

2 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

So it is not the battery manufacturers that must adjust, the MPPT manufacturer must adjust their software and caps to accommodate.

I don't agree. Now the manufacturer tells the clients what he wants and what he needs? The manufacturer must supply what the customer requires. I for one don't want batteries that need to be charged at 59.28 V. 

3 hours ago, Don said:

Now the manufacturer tells the clients what he wants and what he needs?

Let my put it like this. In Software development we say: Mr Client, you can have anything you want, as long as you can pay for it. Want to go to the moon?

Take that back to batteries. If manufacturer pays their scientist money to make a battery last X kwh, and they say it needs Y volts, then you Mr Client, will have to accept that and adjust or buy another type of battery. There is no ways a manufacturer can honour their warranty bending their rules to accommodate clients using the cheapest MPPT controller they can afford. 

Come on Don, you know where this is going to end. Axpert users use the cheapest inverter and MPPT controller on the market, having no supplier supported firmware, low specs parts with aftermarket firmware to improve the unit. Seriously, that it is not an argument to a huge battery manufacturer. It is like I want 280TD Isuzu and it must be able to do 240km/h ... ain't gonna happen.

 

3 hours ago, Don said:

DEPENDING ON USE

It means that my usage dictates I must equalize my Trojans every 6 months if I want. I know this not because Google says so, but because I asked the supplier for MY usage.

Google has a LOT of good answers, but like a Dr will say, Google is not there to replace a Dr. You need to speak to the manufacturer of said batteries, they are the experts on their products for they give you the warranty, not Google.

So spot on, what you quoted above, was from overused batteries trying to get them back into shape = "DEPENDING on USE" - for yes, it can lead to dry-out conditions. 

EDIT: Victron and Morningstar come standard with Auto or Manual equalization. My setups are set (2 of them), just because, once every 4 weeks to equalise automatically. I suggest you ask Voltronic to adjust, for it is all software driven.

EDIT 2: And I can adjust my controllers to most type of batteries to most voltages, as per battery manufacturers specifications.

I can counter argue most of the points and prove you wrong, but I am not going to do that. Going off topic here very fast. I am not in a fighting mood and nothing constructive going to come out of it. I have had enough of batteries to last me a month. So let's just leave it at that. We are beating a dead horse here. 

6 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Ps. Yes they can go 140km/h if really pushed ... but then they just do not last.

I pushed a KB to 130km/h once. RPMs right in the red...

The old-tech Hilux with the 2.4liter indirect injection engine would to 140km/h easy and 160km/h with a bit of patience, no red-lining.

Came back from Gordons bay with my 2.8td rodeo today. Same thing. Overtake at 140kmh and it feels like your raping it. Speed was 100 to 110kmh over the 1480km i did since Friday and i averaged 9.97km/litre. And guess what? The guy that overtook me with his ML500 (at at least 180kmh) just past Worcester was 2 cars in front of me when we came into beaufort west. Traffic was hectic on the N1 today.

Sort of tortoise and the hare story.
Damn! Off topic now

Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk

12 hours ago, Czauto said:

Came back from Gordons bay with my 2.8td rodeo today. Same thing. Overtake at 140kmh and it feels like your raping it. Speed was 100 to 110kmh over the 1480km i did since Friday and i averaged 9.97km/litre. And guess what? The guy that overtook me with his ML500 (at at least 180kmh) just past Worcester was 2 cars in front of me when we came into beaufort west. Traffic was hectic on the N1 today.

Sort of tortoise and the hare story.
Damn! Off topic now

Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk
 

So let me make you jealous. With the average speed cameras, I aim to hit the average (car has a nice feature on the instrument panel for that), so I average 120km/h which means I do long stretches of 130km/h to 140km/h. I do 17km/liter at these speeds. Overtaking... she spins up to 160 without too much compliant, but there is rather little steam above 3500rpm... but... same thing really: The guys who came flying past, by the time we hit the tunnel at Worcester they were maybe 5 cars ahead.

Traffic was okay in the Cape Town direction, but definitely less than ideal in the other direction.

Broke one of the heat plate things above the muffler at some point, so now the old girl rattles a bit. But... first breakage in 7 years of absolutely reliable motoring having only a battery fail (And so minor!). That's Toyota for you!

So let me make you jealous. With the average speed cameras, I aim to hit the average (car has a nice feature on the instrument panel for that), so I average 120km/h which means I do long stretches of 130km/h to 140km/h. I do 17km/liter at these speeds. Overtaking... she spins up to 160 without too much compliant, but there is rather little steam above 3500rpm... but... same thing really: The guys who came flying past, by the time we hit the tunnel at Worcester they were maybe 5 cars ahead.
Traffic was okay in the Cape Town direction, but definitely less than ideal in the other direction.
Broke one of the heat plate things above the muffler at some point, so now the old girl rattles a bit. But... first breakage in 7 years of absolutely reliable motoring having only a battery fail (And so minor!). That's Toyota for you!

I get that with the 330d also (and then mostly i'm one of those flying past) but this weekend we were 7 people with A LOT of luggage so i decided to take the colt. It handles the potholes much better[emoji4]

Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk

6 minutes ago, Czauto said:

I get that with the 330d also

When I still had the 320d, I got even better mileage long distance (18 to 20), but something would break on just about every trip. Usually not bad enough to leave you stranded, just somewhat irritating... like when the driver side window regulator broke. I managed to manually wangle it close, and then the lady at the toll gate thought it was weird that I opened the door instead of winding down the window.

The Corolla does worse long distance, but about the same in town where it spends most of its time. It's down 13kw on power (compared to the 320d) and 20Nm on torque, weighs about the same... BUT... in 7 years only one thing broke! :-)

Lol. Guess you just have bad BMW luck. Mine gives me zero problems whatsoever. I worked for Toyota for quite a while and i must tell you, i'm not a post 2001 toyota fan. IMHO that's where their product deteriorated in quality and reliability. Some have good luck with them but when you work on the things you start seeing thing others don't.
But that's the same as with batteries, inverters and pv panels. Everyone has got the right to an opinion but in the end it stays your choice.

Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk

43 minutes ago, Czauto said:

i'm not a post 2001 toyota fan. IMHO that's where their product deteriorated in quality and reliability.

Oh I agree! 2002, I would say. That's when they stopped making the AE110. The AE120 was a sideways move. There was nothing really exciting about it, made about the same power, it was heavier due to the safety equipment, unless you got the high-end GLS or GSX models there was nothing really attractive about them (which is why I ended up with a BMW). In my opinion (and I'm a big Toyota fan, so that negative review counts for something!). The AE140 was better. The engines made more power and the trim looks better, but I must also admit that initially I felt that they have too much body roll (especially compared to the 320d, but to be fair, the wife complained that the BMW was too stiff, so it's probably a preference thing too). Has to be said that this was the model that tried to kill it's American owner, of which Toyota themselves said that they lost focus on quality. So yes, I tend to agree, it's been downhill since 2002, but I still feel safer with the AE140 in terms of cost of ownership :-)

Edit: At least it is not a Ford FireStarter aka Kuga.

10 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Edit: At least it is not a Ford FireStarter aka Kuga.

I hear it was supposed to be a Ford Cooka but someone misspelled it on the registration forms........

Just now, Czauto said:

I hear it was supposed to be a Ford Cooka but someone misspelled it on the registration forms........

At least in America it was properly named as the "Escape", which is what you have to do sometimes...

Maybe something to also consider in the calculations for Lead Acid vs LiFePo4 is charge efficiency.

Here is the conundrum - if you are able to feed back to grid you can basically pass everything you have back to the grid, i.e. 100% of solar production less internal conversion losses.

Now say you would like to limit the amount you feedback for whatever reason, i.e. you have a surplus you can throw at charging batteries and thus use the batteries at night.

With Lead Acid - the approximate charge efficiency is about 80-85% at best. With LiFePo4 it is around 95% from what I have read, plus it charges faster.

I.e. - with Lead Acid it makes more "sense" to rather push everything you have at the grid than to loose in charge inefficiencies, but it also does not really make sense for that investment to stand around and gather dust.

Thus: You have less energy losses with LiFePo4 in charging than with Lead Acid. And to me 10% is nothing to frown at.

Charge efficiency.... that's just one reason I badly want Lithium batteries! Look at this chart showing my PV power on the one MPPT over the weekend, as well as yesterday with the perfect bell curve (house cleaning day, all PV was used immediately). Around noon we hit absorption voltage and after that you can see the power loss:

But if you look at the SoC chart, you will see that on two days of the weekend I didn't manage to fully recharge the batteries (it stops just short of 100%).

I lowered my minimum SoC cut-off on the CCGX (to 60%) to allow for better self-consumption, but despite having oodles of spare PV I lost 30% of the available PV AND I still couldn't recharge the batteries fully.

Catching up on this thread -- when talking Trojan 105's must not confuse with the T 105-RE's which are not golf cart batteries but for static installation Renewable Energy use hence the RE.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Hi, so it is now decision time.  Omnipower OPS260 or Trojan T105RE?? What to do, please as much help as possible.  Would like to make the right decision this time.

@Leondk get prices also, for it does affect the decision.

I have made a "Boeresom" in the following way.

Trojan C10 A/h is 207 so that gives me R44,97 per 24volt amp hour

Omnipower C10 A/h is 200 so that gives me R49,86 per 24volt amp hour

 

So not much cost difference in price per amp hour.  question is if the Omnipower is going to give me a longer lifespan (will discharge quite deep when in use)

 

Spec sheet claims 1750 cycles to 50% for the Omnipower. The Trojan, as we know, is 1600 cycles to 50%. So it's still a toss-up, assuming both figures are trustworthy. I think the Trojan is more likely to live up to its spec, but the Omni (being sealed and all) is going to look so much neater and will likely be less messy, with much less of a gassing issue. AGM/GEL can also charge/discharge faster.

TTT will say different, but I'd go with the Omnis with the proviso that the cycle number I googled is correct. Doesn't @Chris Hobson have Omnipowers?

Thing with sealed maintenance free batts, bar the nice clean look and no effort, there is something to be said to be able to check each cell's gravity removing all doubts, adding water after a equalise for the batts are getting a bit older.

EDIT: Like in having to load test each batt when there is a problem vs measuring the gravity per cell.

Plus Trojans are tried and tested for many decades in SA.

Me, for my rands and cents, I prefer tried and tested Trojan's, with the mess and hydrogen and all that.

IMHO, sealed lead acid is fine for standby batteries but if you're going to use it full on for solar application and cycle it daily the Trojan's seems like the better option.

You know that one cell that screwed my whole bank (in a Energizer "deep cycle" sla battery)? I wanted to know what went wrong on a 6 month old battery so I broke the thing open only to find a dry cell. If I could check the levels I would've lasted much longer. Mine seldomly gets discharged below 90% SOC now and with the balancers i hope they last until my ship arrives

Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk

32 minutes ago, Leondk said:

question is if the Omnipower is going to give me a longer lifespan (will discharge quite deep when in use)

Hi @Leondk, if you have an Axpert inverter, get the Omnipower. Axpert inverters cannot charge Trojan batteries at the right Voltage, let alone do an equalization charge on them. You will constantly undercharge them and they won't last long. 

 

On 2017/04/13 at 0:30 PM, Don said:

That is the way to do it. My wife tried to start the dishwasher only once at 18h00, just as the sun set. I shouted from the study for her to switch it off. She asked me what about the dishes? I told her she can wash them by hand. The dishwasher has been standing idle the whole day while the sun was shining and I had a lot of spare capacity. Tough luck. She now runs the dishwasher early every morning. 

as i said, doing dishes [by hand] is therapeutic and keeps you earthed - any time of the day ;-)

16 hours ago, Czauto said:

broke the thing open

I've known people that drilled holes, obviously very carefully using a drill-stand, in order that they may check and fill so-called maintenance free bats.

Maintenance-free batteries came about -- so I am told -- because on average car-owners don't know what to do about them so they either fail to maintain them, or when they do attempt to maintain them they end up shortening their life (use the wrong water for example, overfill, etc). In the end, maintenance-free ends up lasting slightly longer -- on average -- because of this. The real losers: The guys who knew what they were doing and could stretch a car battery to 6+ years.