Chris Louw Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 I have 3 220v 4Watt Led lights in line. Each Led has a switch and use the same neutral.They all worked fine until I replaced 1 of the Led with a 1.06 Watt Led. Now if I switch on one of the 4Watt Led lights the 1.06Watt wil glow. I get a 3.22 volt L-N with the multimeter.Should I worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaliaB Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chris Louw said: I have 3 220v 4Watt Led lights in line. Each Led has a switch and use the same neutral.They all worked fine until I replaced 1 of the Led with a 1.06 Watt Led. Now if I switch on one of the 4Watt Led lights the 1.06Watt wil glow. I get a 3.22 volt L-N with the multimeter.Should I worry. Maybe a typo L-N should be 220-240v N-E should be 0v Edited February 18, 2023 by TaliaB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Louw Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 4 hours ago, TaliaB said: Maybe a typo L-N should be 220-240v N-E should be 0v @TaliaBNo the 3.22v is when it is switch off and one of the other LED lights is switched on. When switched on L-N 231v. When al the LED lights is switched off it is L-N 0v. Thanks for the reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P1000 Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 That's capacitive coupling between the wires in the same conduit. It's not really something to worry about. Chris Louw 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frivan Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 Should have used Surfix cable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubertus Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 I had a Sunsynk 5kW installed recently by a company listed as a Master Intaller . However, I too have a similar issue with glowing LED lights throughout the house. In my case however they glow all the time, load shedding or not. There is no Earth-Neutral bond relay even though I did request it. The backup circuit is on a split neutral. Any ideas on this? The installer seems too busy to resolve this so I am still withholding the final payment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonb Posted March 2, 2023 Author Share Posted March 2, 2023 On 2023/02/17 at 4:01 PM, Modina said: However, I am at the moment at a loss of words to try and explain massive differences on a AC meter reading by flipping the two meter probes. Something is ammiss. I would need to think about this. Have you maybe got another meter you can try? Sometimes the meter leads can break without you realizing it. DC would then measure zero, but not AC. A broken cable will have capacitive leakage across the break. This capacitance will be enough to give you AC readings, even at low utility frequencies, i.e. nominal 50Hz. But these readings will obviously be way out. Cables always break where they flex the most, at the connector or probe junctions. In a case like yours, one needs to check everything. Hi. SoI bought a new multimeter (still cheapie, not Fluke) nd get the similar readings as before. Also the values change significantly when I switch around teh pos en neg leads. For example, with black lead on N and red lead on E, I get 0 V. When I switch the leads around, I get 90 V? This is during loadshedding. During normal operation when Eskom is online, all reading are as expect, and even with leads switched around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modina Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 @Leonb that is crazy. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Do you have a ghost looking over your shoulder? LOL. The only way that I could explain it is if your wiring system that you measure is very high impedance, i.e. not really connected but picking up AC through stray capacitance and that that would create a voltage divider with the body-to-meter resistance. When changing the probes, the capacitive coupling will likely change. No, I don't know what is happening in your measuring setup. If you would tell me 1, 2 or 3 volts difference, maybe. But 90V?? It's the weirdest thing I have heard in a long time. Ghosts in the machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaliaB Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Hubertus said: I had a Sunsynk 5kW installed recently by a company listed as a Master Intaller . However, I too have a similar issue with glowing LED lights throughout the house. In my case however they glow all the time, load shedding or not. There is no Earth-Neutral bond relay even though I did request it. The backup circuit is on a split neutral. Any ideas on this? The installer seems too busy to resolve this so I am still withholding the final payment. 1.LED bulbs vary a lot in quality. A low-quality LED may glow, buzz, or flicker even when switched off 2.The earth wire is at an extremely high resistance or the neutral wire is not bonded properly to the earth. 3.An electromagnetic induction may be causing a small pick-up of electricity from cables running along each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubertus Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 27 minutes ago, TaliaB said: 1.LED bulbs vary a lot in quality. A low-quality LED may glow, buzz, or flicker even when switched off 2.The earth wire is at an extremely high resistance or the neutral wire is not bonded properly to the earth. 3.An electromagnetic induction may be causing a small pick-up of electricity from cables running along each other. That may be so, but none of them had that problem before the installation, and now they suddenly all glow. I think I may have discovered the issue however. My plug points on the backup circuit are reading 240V Neutral to Earth. and 2V Live to Earth. !?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaliaB Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Hubertus said: That may be so, but none of them had that problem before the installation, and now they suddenly all glow. I think I may have discovered the issue however. My plug points on the backup circuit are reading 240V Neutral to Earth. and 2V Live to Earth. !?! Definetly a problem with the earth either non existing or at very high resistance very dangerous situation need to get it fixed asap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaliaB Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 What is is the reading L-N L-N 230v L-E 230v N-E 0v or not above 20v 0v is ideal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonb Posted March 12, 2023 Author Share Posted March 12, 2023 Hi Cab someone that understands this contactor please check if mine is wred properly? Blue/yellow is from inverter and red/black from grid. I'm trying to follow the wring diagram, but not sure. And installer isnt pitching. Many thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritishRacingGreen Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 10 minutes ago, Leonb said: Hi Cab someone that understands this contactor please check if mine is wred properly? Blue/yellow is from inverter and red/black from grid. I'm trying to follow the wring diagram, but not sure. And installer isnt pitching. Many thanks. The yellow/green with blue lug and the black with blue lug looks like the bond contact. The coil wires, the red and black on the right hand side, where do they come from.? Also you will have to send a high resolution image of both the relay and its carrier board in order to figure out if the bond contact polarity is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GVC Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 (edited) Connected my grid as pic below and works perfectly. (Connected at the bottom and not from the top) The rest of your wiring is all good. Edited March 12, 2023 by GVC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonb Posted March 14, 2023 Author Share Posted March 14, 2023 Two more photos, one from the top, the other from the bottom. To me this wiring does not make any sense. I mean, when the relay/contactor closes, it needs to create a bond between the E and inverter N. From the bottom view there is no N connected to relay, so where/how is this bond made when the grid falls away? Does anyone maybe has a photo of how this box looks prewired, i.e. off the shelf. From the wiring diagram it states that grid L should be on no 4 and grid N on 5. This also doesn't make sense to me. How does 4 and 5 work together? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonb Posted March 14, 2023 Author Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) Ok. Reading up a bit on this relay, I'm now convinced this installation is a f up. Either: 1) the eskom grid L/N need to be connected to the relay (A1 and A2) with the black wire (blue lug) on connector 1, or 2) the relay is powered from the inverter ATS240 pins, with the the black wire (blue lug) on connector 5. On my installation nothing is connected to the relay to energize or de-energize it, so it cannot make a N/E bond when eskom drops. Why the installer connected the grid to 5 and 8, I have no idea. Edited March 14, 2023 by Leonb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritishRacingGreen Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 51 minutes ago, Leonb said: Ok. Reading up a bit on this relay, I'm now convinced this installation is a f up. Either: 1) the eskom grid L/N need to be connected to the relay (A1 and A2) with the black wire (blue lug) on connector 1, or 2) the relay is powered from the inverter ATS240 pins, with the the black wire (blue lug) on connector 5. On my installation nothing is connected to the relay to energize or de-energize it, so it cannot make a N/E bond when eskom drops. Why the installer connected the grid to 5 and 8, I have no idea. I can see youve done your homework. Note : when you using grid to power the relay you need a normally closed contact of the relay to bond neatral to earth. When you using ATS240, you need a normally open contact as the ATS240 function energizes the relay when you need to bond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritishRacingGreen Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, BritishRacingGreen said: I can see youve done your homework. Note : when you using grid to power the relay you need a normally closed contact of the relay to bond neatral to earth. When you using ATS240, you need a normally open contact as the ATS240 function energizes the relay when you need to bond. I have noticed that many installers qualified or unqualified, works with no specification at all, no schematic (not even a casual/informal one), no as-built drawings, no formal test and verification methods. Some cannot tell you gridtie basics, yet they install and commission a gridtie. Really. In afrikaans we have a saying : Ons weet nie wat ons doen nie, maar ons doen dit so lekker! Edited March 14, 2023 by BritishRacingGreen Yellow Measure and Kalahari Cruiser 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GVC Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Leonb said: On my installation nothing is connected to the relay to energize or de-energize it, so it cannot make a N/E bond when eskom drops. Have you checked out this thread with pictures on how to connect it using the ATS240. Edited March 14, 2023 by GVC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonb Posted March 14, 2023 Author Share Posted March 14, 2023 28 minutes ago, GVC said: Have you checked out this thread with pictures on how to connect it using the ATS240. Yes, thanks, I have. From these and other threads I now think I understand how this relay/contactor works. My installer obviously not. I dont really want to rewire the box myself, and rather let him do it. But will as last resort. Which of the two options is better: 1) using grid, or using ATS240 from inverter to operate the relay?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GVC Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) Mine is connected as per option 1. The problem with option 1 is that when the grid returns, the relay in the Neutral box immediately switches but the Sunsynk takes a full minute before it kicks over to grid...therefore you once again have a floating neutral for that minute. I suppose one can reduce the time to a couple of seconds, but I like this 1 minute feature cos as we all know of the problems with power surges when the grid comes back online. So, definitely option 2 is the better one. Edited March 14, 2023 by GVC Kalahari Cruiser 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritishRacingGreen Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 1 hour ago, Leonb said: Yes, thanks, I have. From these and other threads I now think I understand how this relay/contactor works. My installer obviously not. I dont really want to rewire the box myself, and rather let him do it. But will as last resort. Which of the two options is better: 1) using grid, or using ATS240 from inverter to operate the relay?. Both the methods will perform the bonding function. Method 1 is safer though, as the bond is established when the relay de energizes. Method 2 is less safe as the relay is required energized to bond, so if the wire breaks to the coil or the ATS drive output fail, the bond will never make. And its undetectable, you wont know about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonb Posted March 15, 2023 Author Share Posted March 15, 2023 Thanks I'm just wondering if a permanent bond is not the better route after all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritishRacingGreen Posted March 15, 2023 Share Posted March 15, 2023 3 minutes ago, Leonb said: Thanks I'm just wondering if a permanent bond is not the better route after all... Rather not, its not COC compliant and it may not be friendly to an upstream ELD on the grid side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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