Dyness 10year warranty anyone else had a legitimate warranty rejected?

[GoodweYES]

Hi,

 

I had a Dyness B3 4X battery stack installed by a supplier on 3 August 2020 . At that time the installer informed me that I had a 10 year warranty on the Dyness batteries.  The settings of the  Goodwe 5048 inverter was set on 50% DOD on grid and 80% of grid. One of the batteries failed and I requested my installer to assist. He informed me That CNBMSOLAR the Dyness service company refused as they said the battery was given over-voltage. Now I do not understand the logic as there were 4 Dyness B3 batteries in the stack with this being the second one in the stack and wired as Dyness prescribed by the installer. All the batteries have their own BMS and as well only one battery were set as the primary which was the top one.

 

Could you please advise me if I am correct in assuming that Dyness is shirking their responsibility as:

1) What is their basis or ground  to say there were over-voltage and should the batteries Dyness BMS not protect it?  I understand the swollen cells indicates overvoltage but their BMS and circuitry is to blame and should protect the cell  ? 

2) If the BMS failed is this not still/also the battery manufacturer issue?

3) How come all the other batteries in the stack are fine? Did their BMS work correctly and this batteries not? Is it still the manufacturer's issue? .

4) Anyone that has followed a legal resolution and what were the costs of this?

5) Do I have any recourse ie asking Goodwe why their inverter supplied overvoltage or will this just start a ping pong game in China with not respnsibility taken by anyone?

6) Any other recourse?

I would appreciate any advice as it would seem the battery manufacturer intends to not wanting to honor their warranty when there is cells that are swollen regardless if the failure is caused by the BMS or the poor quality selection of the wet cells that were used. If someone had a similar experience and got it resolved I would also appreciate some advice.

My advice in the mean time is to think carefully when buying Dyness batteries and you want to assume the 10 year battery warranty is valid when comparing to other brands. This one B3 battery failed after 2 year and 2 months and it was not really worked hard with  the full stack only going about 12 times to 80%dod and the rest of the time to 50%.  So the battery could have given me 1400 kWh out if the possible guaranteed 16800kWh ( 3.5 @80% dod x 6000 cycles ).  

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by GoodweYES

[Nexuss]

They should definitely replace it or repair it at least ,give them hell. 

[Tinbum]

Surly your installer is also responsible if the battery has gone over voltage.

[FixAMess]

21 minutes ago, Tinbum said:

Surly your installer is also responsible if the battery has gone over voltage.

Good question. I'm not sure if the Goodwe has a setting for Dyness like it does for pylontechs, but I think the bms should do its job and prevent over voltage.

Even on.pylontechs, when I added a new battery it also had over voltage warnings, but after a few days it was ok..

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by FixAMess

[Nexuss]

59 minutes ago, Tinbum said:

Surly your installer is also responsible if the battery has gone over voltage.

How? if there was a true overvoltage event surely all the batteries would be fried ? Even then i dont see how it would be the installers fault as it has been working for over 2 years.

[Modina]

Point -4- legal resolution.  Forget it.  The legal system only protects the ultra rich and the ultra poor.  You would be wasting your time and money.  Rather contact the local agent and make it quite clear that if the warranty is not upheld, you intend dragging the company name through the deepest mud you can find.  Especially on a forum like this, a reputation can suffer badly... 

You make some very valid points with 1, 2 & 3.

Slightly off point, but worth mentioning, is a story a friend recently told.  She has a 10+ year Victron inverter that stopped working.  The inverter went to a repair centre in Kuilsriver (not sure if these are the formal repair agents).  Anyway, the inverter was declared unserviceable.  She phoned, wanting to know exactly what the fault was.  They explained that the inverter had 3 PCBs.  First they would exchange the control PCB.  If that wouldn't fix things, they would replace the power PCB.  And if the fault would still persist, they would then replace the inter-connect/back-panel PCB.  However, the inverter being more than 10 years old is no longer supported and no spares are available.  She then contacted friends in the Netherlands who got confirmation from the Victron head office that this indeed is correct.

I can understand the 10-year limit on spares support.  What I can't understand, is why the local guys seem to only be PCB/module replacers just like BMW or Merc mechanics.  It sounds that no attempt is made in actual repair, i.e. fault tracing and replacing down to component level.

Some of the Victron MPPT chargers are completely potted.  On youtube people show how they cut the box open with angle grinder or hacksaw, just to replace a fuse.

You expect a 10 year guarantee.  Other companies can't even keep the spares for that period.  Granted, batteries and solar panels are somewhat different to a box of silicon.

Many good reputations are build on rubble.  I have forever ignored guarantees and am willing to break the tamper sticker on the first day.

[Scorp007]

3 hours ago, Nexuss said:

How? if there was a true overvoltage event surely all the batteries would be fried ? Even then i dont see how it would be the installers fault as it has been working for over 2 years.

At times easier to find the installer as someone must take the blame. Things do not just happen. Did the installer not adjust it to fail to get a call out

[Nicholas Strachan]

I had a 6 month old hubble am2 bms burn out through no fault of my own.They tossed me under the bus and i had to pay for a new bms. So warranties on batteries are so iffy

[Nexuss]

2 hours ago, Nicholas Strachan said:

I had a 6 month old hubble am2 bms burn out through no fault of my own.They tossed me under the bus and i had to pay for a new bms. So warranties on batteries are so iffy

Just out of curiosity did you know the AM2 is not lifepo4 before you bought them and that they count 2 cycles for every 1 cycle ? I am convinced most people have no idea. You still see threads here daily with people still buying them.

[WildM]

38 minutes ago, Nexuss said:

Just out of curiosity did you know the AM2 is not lifepo4 before you bought them and that they count 2 cycles for every 1 cycle ? I am convinced most people have no idea. You still see threads here daily with people still buying them.

Hi @Nexuss please elaborate on the counting of cycles? And what are they if not lifepo4? 

[Nexuss]

8 minutes ago, Reet said:

Hi @Nexuss please elaborate on the counting of cycles? And what are they if not lifepo4? 

The topic has been covered quite extensively on this forum so search around if you are interested in more details but its just as i say the bms counts 2 cycles for every cycle you do.  The chemistry is NMC and its popular in electric vehicles for its higher energy density.  .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_nickel_manganese_cobalt_oxides

Edited March 25, 2023 by Nexuss

[zsde]

40 minutes ago, Nexuss said:

the bms counts 2 cycles for every cycle

That is a matter of the programming of the BMS. And Hubble seems to do it no matter if it's a LiNMC or their latest LiFePO4. 
LBSA with their LiFePO4 do this double cycle count as well, @Antonio de Sa has commented on that a couple of times.

[Antonio de Sa]

AS @zsde mentioned above the issue of the cycle count has been debated in the forum quite extensionally. It's a question of how the BMS is programed. In the case of the LBSA LiFePO4 battery the Seplos BMS comes with a default DOD of 80%. There are a few members of the forum that have resolved it by using the Seplos software 

program and changed that specific parameter setting. In my case I had days of 3 cycles, once the battery goes over 80% SOC and for some reason if it drops bellow that figure and charge again over 80% SOC it counts one cycle. 

[Nexuss]

20 minutes ago, zsde said:

That is a matter of the programming of the BMS. And Hubble seems to do it no matter if it's a LiNMC or their latest LiFePO4. 
LBSA with their LiFePO4 do this double cycle count as well, @Antonio de Sa has commented on that a couple of times.

Thats crazy , i really hoped they stopped the scam with the AM2 but if they do the same with the AM5 theres no hope at all for people buying these batteries.

[PowerUser]

34 minutes ago, Nexuss said:

Thats crazy , i really hoped they stopped the scam with the AM2 but if they do the same with the AM5 theres no hope at all for people buying these batteries.

For the AM-5:

Hubble Lithium warrants that the Battery cells will achieve at least 10 years’ service life and deliver unlimited charge-discharge cycles within the warranty period. 

Link: https://www.hubblelithium.co.za/warranties

[PowerUser]

1 hour ago, Nexuss said:

The topic has been covered quite extensively on this forum so search around if you are interested in more details but its just as i say the bms counts 2 cycles for every cycle you do.  The chemistry is NMC and its popular in electric vehicles for its higher energy density.  .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_nickel_manganese_cobalt_oxides

Have you ever heard of Hubble AM-2 causing problem purely because if it's chemistry? Not because of any other issues, they had, with the older firmware?

Edited March 25, 2023 by PowerUser

[Bobster.]

My Goodwe es 4600 has presets for some Dyness models, but not for the model you mention. 

So do you have comms between batteries & inverter, and what settings are you using on the Goodwe?

[I84RiS]

On 2023/03/24 at 4:04 PM, GoodweYES said:

Hi,

 

I had a Dyness B3 4X battery stack installed by a supplier on 3 August 2020 . At that time the installer informed me that I had a 10 year warranty on the Dyness batteries.  The settings of the  Goodwe 5048 inverter was set on 50% DOD on grid and 80% of grid. One of the batteries failed and I requested my installer to assist. He informed me That CNBMSOLAR the Dyness service company refused as they said the battery was given over-voltage. Now I do not understand the logic as there were 4 Dyness B3 batteries in the stack with this being the second one in the stack and wired as Dyness prescribed by the installer. All the batteries have their own BMS and as well only one battery were set as the primary which was the top one.

 

Could you please advise me if I am correct in assuming that Dyness is shirking their responsibility as:

1) What is their basis or ground  to say there were over-voltage and should the batteries Dyness BMS not protect it?  I understand the swollen cells indicates overvoltage but their BMS and circuitry is to blame and should protect the cell  ? 

2) If the BMS failed is this not still/also the battery manufacturer issue?

3) How come all the other batteries in the stack are fine? Did their BMS work correctly and this batteries not? Is it still the manufacturer's issue? .

4) Anyone that has followed a legal resolution and what were the costs of this?

5) Do I have any recourse ie asking Goodwe why their inverter supplied overvoltage or will this just start a ping pong game in China with not respnsibility taken by anyone?

6) Any other recourse?

I would appreciate any advice as it would seem the battery manufacturer intends to not wanting to honor their warranty when there is cells that are swollen regardless if the failure is caused by the BMS or the poor quality selection of the wet cells that were used. If someone had a similar experience and got it resolved I would also appreciate some advice.

My advice in the mean time is to think carefully when buying Dyness batteries and you want to assume the 10 year battery warranty is valid when comparing to other brands. This one B3 battery failed after 2 year and 2 months and it was not really worked hard with  the full stack only going about 12 times to 80%dod and the rest of the time to 50%.  So the battery could have given me 1400 kWh out if the possible guaranteed 16800kWh ( 3.5 @80% dod x 6000 cycles ).  

 

Did you ask for the BMS data that they pulled from the battery? You should

Did they supply the details of the overvoltage event or events. Again you want then to supply this information to you.

Generally an overvoltage alarm will be triggered at 3.6v for a LFP cells. The cell will still continue to charge up to 3.65v when an overvoltage protect will be triggered and the battery (all cells) will stop charging. Both 3.6v and 3.65v is easily manageable for LFP cells ,and it should not cause cell failure.

You need to check the data for

1. Frequency of the overvoltage events (does it occur daily or is it random).

2. Look at the timestamp of the events. Did they at least occur after the batteries were installed at your premises.

3. Do the overvoltage events occur on all cells or just the one cell with the issue. If it is only occurring on the one cell with the issue then this is a dead giveaway that the cell was likely of poor quality from the start. By example if the swollen cel was at 3.65v while the others cells were still at 3.35v then it is clear that the overvoltage alarm was caused by a poor cell and not actually by an incorrect charge voltage.

4. Are there over voltage events for the battery as a whole or just at cell level. If the overvoltage is for the battery as a whole then the issue was likely caused by an incorrect charge voltage being supplied as opposed to an issue at cell level. Even using BMS communication is no guarantee of the correct charge voltage being applied.

Also ask for the BMS data of the other batteries in the bank to compare the data. If it is only one battery with this issue then this again points to poor quality cells that caused the issue ( or some installation issue).

[JohanG]

What about blue nova, mine ran flat and I returned it they fixed an issue and recharged it no cost 10year warranty.... only cost me transport.

[Nicholas Strachan]

On 2023/03/25 at 10:53 AM, Nexuss said:

Just out of curiosity did you know the AM2 is not lifepo4 before you bought them and that they count 2 cycles for every 1 cycle ? I am convinced most people have no idea. You still see threads here daily with people still buying them.

To be honest when I had my installation done I didnt know.One learns as you go along.

[GoodweYES]

On 2023/03/26 at 12:49 AM, Bobster. said:

My Goodwe es 4600 has presets for some Dyness models, but not for the model you mention. 

So do you have comms between batteries & inverter, and what settings are you using on the Goodwe?

The installer used the  Dyness-LV*4. This has a more conservative amp charge and discharge for the 4 x 50AH battery while the ones installed were 4 x 75AH . The voltage max and min are the same that is why they have a Dyness-LV*1 - 4 for both the 2.4kWh and 3.5 kWh.

The inverter indicates that the max voltage that it had ever supplied were 53.69.  The inverter max charge voltage setting was 53.5. (Dyness B3 has a max of 54v and min of 42V)

[GoodweYES]

On 2023/03/26 at 8:33 AM, I84RiS said:

Did you ask for the BMS data that they pulled from the battery? You should

Did they supply the details of the overvoltage event or events. Again you want then to supply this information to you.

Generally an overvoltage alarm will be triggered at 3.6v for a LFP cells. The cell will still continue to charge up to 3.65v when an overvoltage protect will be triggered and the battery (all cells) will stop charging. Both 3.6v and 3.65v is easily manageable for LFP cells ,and it should not cause cell failure.

You need to check the data for

1. Frequency of the overvoltage events (does it occur daily or is it random).

2. Look at the timestamp of the events. Did they at least occur after the batteries were installed at your premises.

3. Do the overvoltage events occur on all cells or just the one cell with the issue. If it is only occurring on the one cell with the issue then this is a dead giveaway that the cell was likely of poor quality from the start. By example if the swollen cel was at 3.65v while the others cells were still at 3.35v then it is clear that the overvoltage alarm was caused by a poor cell and not actually by an incorrect charge voltage.

4. Are there over voltage events for the battery as a whole or just at cell level. If the overvoltage is for the battery as a whole then the issue was likely caused by an incorrect charge voltage being supplied as opposed to an issue at cell level. Even using BMS communication is no guarantee of the correct charge voltage being applied.

Also ask for the BMS data of the other batteries in the bank to compare the data. If it is only one battery with this issue then this again points to poor quality cells that caused the issue ( or some installation issue).

Thanks for the advice I will ask the installer Reviron to obtain the BMS Data for me.

[GoodweYES]

Hi ,

For the interested ,Photos of the interior cell of the failed  Dyness battery. For the technical savvy out there this question. Is it probable that if over-voltage occurred not more the one cell would have failed ? The temperature the inverter reporter from the BMS where 30.2 .My suspiscion is that the fifth cell being in the middle were of inferior quality and the additional bit of heat it would experience being in the centre caused it to fail, Not over-voltage as alleged. BMS report were not able to be extracted by CNBMSOLAR.

 

Strange that Dyness still says overvoltage.

[Scorp007]

On 2023/03/27 at 8:36 AM, GoodweYES said:

Thanks for the advice I will ask the installer Reviron to obtain the BMS Data for me.

I am sure a lot of us would like to see if the installer Reviron or Dyness are prepared to share the data to verify what the voltage was with date stamps.

We would like to be part of the bottom of this failure. 

[Antonio de Sa]

9 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

I am sure a lot of us would like to see if the installer Reviron or Dyness are prepared to share the data to verify what the voltage was with date stamps.

We would like to be part of the bottom of this failure. 

@Scorp007 Nothing like archiving all your parameters data for future reference in case of a guaranty dispute of the OEM. 

I do it, herewith last 30 days of my pack individual cell voltage. Max voltage 3.55 V anything above and the BMS takes action and starts to equalize.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Antonio de Sa