20 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Now just the 5kva GoodWE's and the 3.5kw limit ... 😉 

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Just now, Niel said:

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Unless GoodWe, like Victron can already, adds a software limit, then the problem could be sorted.

8 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Unless GoodWe, like Victron can already, adds a software limit, then the problem could be sorted.

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath on that one either. 

 

2 minutes ago, Niel said:

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath on that one either. 

Apparently there are some challenges. 

Vs on the 5kva Multiplus II, which is max 4kw grid tied, all one needs to do is drop 500w - and you can do that as it is already in ESS.

So in chatting to Victron about it, they COULD MAYBE IF IT IS a NEED (!) one day maybe look at to password protect the setting tp drop that 500w by default for SA NRS because that would make the engineer signing the install off, calmer ... as the owner cannot, after he signed it all off, change it back again. (cwl) 

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

So in chatting to Victron about it, they COULD MAYBE IF IT IS a NEED (!) one day maybe look at to password protect the setting tp drop that 500w by default for SA NRS because that would make the engineer signing the install off, calmer ... as the owner cannot, after he signed it all off, change it back again. (cwl) 

Dude.... you talked to one busy R& D guy who said MAYBE if there is enough demand for it... 🙂

1 hour ago, plonkster said:

Dude.... you talked to one busy R& D guy who said MAYBE if there is enough demand for it... 🙂

No idea what you are talking about! 🙂 

I quote myself ...

2 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

... COULD MAYBE IF IT IS a NEED (!) one day maybe look at to password protect the setting to drop 500w ...

And I have damn good reasons too: 
1) I believe that when the suggestion is posted on the right Victron site that it would get the attention it requires IF it becomes a need ... IF ... 
2) The point of my post being that it is so much "easier" with Victron than most others, it can be done, and the update would be free IF their is a need and a benefit to Victron, or more sales.
3) More sales ... IF / when the 5kva MP II hits SA market, the same problem is facing Victron as what 5kva GoodWE's are facing today, so maybe there are more 5kva sales ... 

And THAT is something to share, even with maybe some sort of "authors freedom". Toughen up buttercup! 😋

Edited June 20, 20197 yr by Guest

54 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

2) The point of my post being that it is so much "easier" with Victron than most others, it can be done, and the update would be free IF their is a need and a benefit to Victron, or more sales.

Fair enough 🙂 The point is there is already an inverter power limit in the ESS implementation, so limiting a 5kva (4kw grid-tied) in software can already be done. The issue is that the limit can easily be removed with no password or anything, and I suspect that might not fly. But if software limits are acceptable, then it should be possible to make the 5kva CoCT-ready with just a few lines of high-level code. Of course, first the 5kva needs to get NRS097... and that is going to take a while.

(technically, since we allow people to root their CCGXes, it can be lifted by any suitably skilled person anyway... but then at least it is no longer the fault of the installer).

2 minutes ago, plonkster said:

... since we allow people to root their CCGXes ...

Ideally it must be done on the inverter, where you set it for SA's NRS setting. 😉

Lets see what GoodWE / owners / engineers decided to agree on ito SANS NRS regulations.

22 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Ideally it must be done on the inverter, where you set it for SA's NRS setting. 😉

If that is what you want, prepare to wait a long long time 🙂

Edit: And I don't think it really helps. You can still lift it if you are sufficiently skilled with VeConfigure. The idea is not to police it, just to lock it down suitably that responsibility passes to someone else if it is messed with. Akin to meter tampering in other words.

Edited June 21, 20197 yr by plonkster

34 minutes ago, plonkster said:

The idea is not to police it, just to lock it down suitably that responsibility passes to someone else if it is messed with.

That is very true!

But I'm thinking now (can be very bad) if the inverters are limited to 2.4kw when grid tied, why not limit the 5kva to 3.5kw when grid tied instead of 4kw?

Edited June 21, 20197 yr by Guest

20 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

But I'm thinking now (can be very bad) if the inverters are limited to 2.4kw when grid tied, why not limit the 5kva to 3.5kw when grid tied instead of 4kw?

Technically.... yeah why not. But then it would go into the ESS assistant, not into the main firmware. The Multi has an 8-bit MCU programmed in a low-level language, and the assistant stack is there precisely to separate concerns. The off-grid market is many times larger than the grid-tied market, so you really want this feature to be "elsewhere". But then, since you must use a Venus device to run ESS anyway (it won't work without it)... why not do it that side?

Edited June 21, 20197 yr by plonkster

34 minutes ago, plonkster said:

... why not do it that side?

The ONLY reason is to keep make it more "secure" that it does not leave doubts in the officials minds. 

Other than that, none whatsoever.

I always try to remove doubt, it simplifies things when there are questions.

EDIT: Remember, this is to secure more SALES for the 5kva ... that it is out of the box legal to grid tie in SA.

Edited June 21, 20197 yr by Guest

On 2019/05/29 at 9:58 PM, Rautenk said:

What engineer? You not using me how dare you?!

 

But jokes aside. Meeting with CoCT went well and I will get the minutes of meeting sorted when I get some time. They clarified quite a lot of things. And yes, not all of it is nice to hear, but damn sensible so you can't stay angry! 

Some interesting facts:

1. No budging on the >3.5kW on 60A breaker

2. No installing 80A for SSEGs only (network issues)

 

This is the cliff hanger notes, the details will be provided (hopefully by end of the weekend)

 

And @The Terrible Triplett, as a guy that built one of the first Solar Farms in SA and one of the first wind farms, I can gaurentee you the tariffs quoted is incorrect. The averaged 0.86 is more truthful. AND Eskom DOES NOT PAY FOR THE IPP ENERGY. (Mind blown, I know)... Its a Pass through charge, YOU and I have been paying for them for 2 to 3 years BEFORE the first IPP actually came on line. The IPP costs are directly built into the tariffs we pay. The now new ex-CEO made a statement some time back that the noise created around the IPPs was a false narrative and CSIR was actually not influenced by WMC and was telling the truth. Yes Rd1 Tariffs was expensive, however at about 1400MW installed it is not even a drop in the total energy bucket, CSP (Concentrated Solar Power) was around R4.50 per kWh, but they provided storage as well... (an that was again just a small fraction of the 1400MW).

 

Wait until weekend for the full notes

 

Got some headscratching to do mysel, as did not do the homework upfrontf - got the same response. A gridtied system 5kwp of panels on a 5KVA solaredge inverter is not going to fly on 60A connection. And if i read it correctly, they won't allow an upgrade to 80A? When they say reduce generation, do they mean take panels off roof, or limit in software being allowed (clip it at peak production time)

A limit of 3.5kW seems to me really low, and will be a huge stumbling block to more embedded customers installing systems.

 

{on the IPP pricing - was also involved for a few years from 2011 - what is not said is how government stuffed around from a 2003 whitepaper for 8 years, and then when push came to shove (agreed to sign up IPPs to get COP17 in Durban) they gave the industry 3 months to submit projects. It became hugely overpriced in RD1 (and a bit less in RD2 just 3 months later) as it was still incredibly risky. I'm not blaming any of it on greedy capitalists (for every one who built a lucrative RD1 project, four+ more walked away with nothing) but policy uncertainty increasing risk (and therefore costs) of projects.}

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Steven Burnett said:

And if i read it correctly, they won't allow an upgrade to 80A?
When they say reduce generation, do they mean take panels off roof, or limit in software being allowed (clip it at peak production time)

An idea is to "upgrade" the breaker before you even hint to them of your intention of going grid tied solar ... if you do it the other way around i.e. you registered, they turn it down, now you ask for a 80amp breaker, as @Fuenkli tried, they also block you as "that is now how we do it". 

They mean the software must clip it at 3.5kw, allegedly they will accept software "clipping" when grid tied.

15 minutes ago, Steven Burnett said:

A limit of 3.5kW seems to me really low, and will be a huge stumbling block to more embedded customers installing systems.

We have discussed this extensively. The core principal: The grid is not designed for decentralized generation. 

On 2019/04/29 at 9:19 AM, plonkster said:

My take on this is that CoCT wants a piece of paper for the device (or combination of devices) that you have installed. This piece of paper has to come from a testing house.

The older Victron units don't comply with NRS097-2-1. They can't because they don't have the required two-series disconnect that is required. For reference, this is the same requirement as in the German VDE AR N 4105.

You can however install a Ziehl UFR-1001e anti-islanding switch. This makes the older units fully compliant with NRS097-2-1 (edit: In fact it makes it BETTER than NRS097-2-1 compliant). The Ziehl has a piece of paper and it is on the CoCT list (it is unclear why, more about it below). Ziehl also provides instructions on how to configure this device for the parameters of NRS097. This combination has not been tested for NRS097-2-1 though, and I think that is why Cape Town is rejecting it. They want the inverter itself to be tested (or in this case, the combo).

I am not sure if the Victron situation is useful in a case for the Axpert. The Victron unit is a Hybrid that can tie with the grid. Hence it falls under paragraph 4.4.1.3 of NRS097-2-1, which requires the whole anti-islanding thing. The Axpert falls under 4.4.1.2 (units that can't feed back into the grid) and technically requires only compliance with SANS  10142-2-1, which in turn requires SANS 60947-6-1 (or the IEC equivalent) compliance... which I believe the Axpert doesn't have. In other words, there is a fork in the road and these two inverters are on opposite sides of it.

I think what happened in Australia is that the local distributor went to the trouble of getting paperwork for the thing.

* Why the Ziehl is on the list. Apparently it is there to be used with some Hoymiles devices. I have to assume those devices actually have paperwork to this extent.

The Tele Haase NA003 is also on the CoCT list. I think it may also be able to achieve this.

15 minutes ago, Zialmen said:

I think what happened in Australia is that the local distributor went to the trouble of getting paperwork for the thing.

the above is actually originally from @plonkster, so my newbie question is [i love the newbie status, can't be on any merit that the 'system' has promoted me] if the axpert is certified, used and trusted in a 1st world country like australia why on earth is there a problem with it in the junk status country we live in... or does electricity behave differently down under 🥴

1 hour ago, Gabriël said:

the above is actually originally from @plonkster, so my newbie question is [i love the newbie status, can't be on any merit that the 'system' has promoted me] if the axpert is certified, used and trusted in a 1st world country like australia why on earth is there a problem with it in the junk status country we live in... or does electricity behave differently down under 🥴

Thou shalt not use an inverter not created in the name of NRS-097 unless you be smitten by the fist of COCT.

Clear ?

And there we go!!! Signed sealed legal grid tied connection for a 3kva Victron Multigrid.

 

 

Edited July 12, 20196 yr by Guest

12 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

And there we go!!! Signed sealed legal grid tied connection for a 3kva Victron Multigrid.

Congratulations TTT, well done!!

2 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

And there we go!!! Signed sealed legal grid tied connection for a 3kva Victron Multigrid.

Congrats.  How long did that take, and did you have to chase?

5 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

And there we go!!! Signed sealed legal grid tied connection for a 3kva Victron Multigrid

well done. I hope I will also get there eventually 😀.

3 hours ago, IdlePhaedrus said:

How long did that take, and did you have to chase?

Oct 2018 - Sent in the bare bone completed form to ask if I may install grid tied. Still the original old forms, not the new snazzy ones.
But the from got lost in a mailing system malfunction, it all was new, the people I dealt with responded promptly to fix it.
28 Nov 2018 - Asked where my application is, the forms where found and I got a near instant reply that my application was in hand.
... Then we had the holidays ... 
15 Feb 2019 - Got the approval reference that I can now go ahead and do the install.
11 Apr 2019 - Final updated Engineers report completed and all paperwork was finally submitted.
20 Jun 2019 - I queried where is my final approval letter - prompt response back - turns out I missed a email where I was asked to initial some pages I missed. Fixed that.
8 Jul 2019 - Asked where we are standing - prompt response back - informing me that the application has been approved and is awaiting one officials final signature.
12 Jul 2019 - Got the approved signed docs.

I cannot complain. 

Sparkies to provide a CoC took the longest, we had issues. Engineering report was quick IF all is done as per requirements.
So I recon CoCT side could have been done in 2-4 weeks if all paperwork was done correctly, on time, and dead center ito the requirements.
 

a while ago we discussed if the CoCT is following the inverter maximum output limits as published in NRS097-2-1 2014. Unfortunately they are not (see correspondence with the CoCT below). The limit in CT for a 60A single phase supply is indeed only 3.5kVA and not 3.68kVA as in NRS. This is restricting suitable inverters even further. A lot of suppliers (like Goodwe) only have 3.6kW models ☹️.

 

 

Good day,

Our requirements is modified to that of NRS, thus 3.5 kVA will be the limit for SSEG installed for a 60A single-phase installation.

 

Regards

Shiraaz Swartland (Pr Tech Eng)
Principal Professional Officer: Service Connection Planning (SCP) – North

Tel: 021 444 2177 | Fax: 086 696 6068 | Cell: 083 324 2908 |  Email:      [email protected]  | Web: www.capetown.gov.za

 

 

 

 

Dear Mr. Swartland,

thank you for the reply. We will follow up with Goodwe in China to find a suitable solution for their Inverters > 3.5kVA connected to the grid in Cape Town. Another issue we would like to clarify to prevent any future registration problem is the exact maximum total generation capacity. According to NRS 097-2-3:2014 it is 3.68 kVA on a 60A single phase supply but your table refers to 3.5kVA. Is the CoCT prepared to accept inverters which a total maximum output capacity of 3.6kW?

Regards

 

 

 

Quick update my side.  Permission to install from CoCT came through at the end of last week, so about two and a bit months after the full set of paperwork was submitted.

When the install is done and the final wiring diagram is submitted, along with the final CoC from the installer, signoff by a "ECSA registered professional" and the (original, signed) supplemental agreement between myself and CoCT.  I will let you know...

Then we can count the days until full commissioning is approved.