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2 Options for a 3 Phase Installation


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Howzit guys

 

I need assistance and advice as I've searched as well as talked to multiple suppliers.

 

I have an option of 2 different installations.

The one is using a 15kw 3 phase inverter sofar solar or 3 X single phase 5kw victron (dc coupled ess storage)

The solar input is around a 12.6kw array and for the 3phase inverter it will be pylontech power cube h2 batteries and for the victron it would be Freedom Won.

 

From what I've researched the 3 phase will only supply max 5kw per phase.

The victron I was told it can dynamically supply as required and as available from solar and battery (acc to setup) (but haven't been able to find info conclusively either way), is this correct?

 

So my main aim is being able to cut down electricity bill (and this will involve playing around with what % of battery I'd like to use during the day once charged (for example 50%)) and more importantly having backup during load shedding (with some heating appliances in peak winter)

What I've found is the freedomwon is more expensive but has a 1C rating while the pylontech is 0.5C.

My question is which of the 2 system would see a better roi and month to month saving if the battery system /solar input is comparable.

Has anyone installed either a 3 phase or 3 X single phase in parallel for a 3 phase house?

 

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56 minutes ago, Sayf123 said:

Howzit guys

 

I need assistance and advice as I've searched as well as talked to multiple suppliers.

 

I have an option of 2 different installations.

The one is using a 15kw 3 phase inverter sofar solar or 3 X single phase 5kw victron (dc coupled ess storage)

The solar input is around a 12.6kw array and for the 3phase inverter it will be pylontech power cube h2 batteries and for the victron it would be Freedom Won.

 

From what I've researched the 3 phase will only supply max 5kw per phase.

The victron I was told it can dynamically supply as required and as available from solar and battery (acc to setup) (but haven't been able to find info conclusively either way), is this correct?

 

So my main aim is being able to cut down electricity bill (and this will involve playing around with what % of battery I'd like to use during the day once charged (for example 50%)) and more importantly having backup during load shedding (with some heating appliances in peak winter)

What I've found is the freedomwon is more expensive but has a 1C rating while the pylontech is 0.5C.

My question is which of the 2 system would see a better roi and month to month saving if the battery system /solar input is comparable.

Has anyone installed either a 3 phase or 3 X single phase in parallel for a 3 phase house?

 

Hi Sayf

Regarding the Victron, you don’t get a 5kw unit, that would be 5kva with a power factor of 0.8 making it 4kw. Victron is a good product but the downside is that it’s pricy vs other brands. It’s possible that with the Victron setup that it would deliver more than 4kw on an phase by taking power from the other inverter due to the Victron passthrough function. Sofar solar is a good brand but you would need a high voltage battery. 

If you don’t have any 3 phase equipment then the best would be to convert the DB to single phase depending on your peak power consumption and then have 2 or 3 inverters in parallel on that phase. 
 

I have installed a 3 phase system but it was 3 x 5kw Sunsynk units with 4 x Hubble AM2 batteries. Depending on your needs, I would convert to single phase and do 2 x 8kw Sunsynks in parallel. 
 

 

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@Leshen, your input would be appreciated, I have 3 phase supply ( 50 amp main breakers )I have my 5kW Sunsynk on one phase, the other two phases hardly have any continuous load on them, not worth having them on an inverter. My question is do the unbalanced loads on the three phases create an an issue 

ps no three phase equipment 

Edited by Tariq
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3 minutes ago, Leshen said:

Hi Sayf

Regarding the Victron, you don’t get a 5kw unit, that would be 5kva with a power factor of 0.8 making it 4kw. Victron is a good product but the downside is that it’s pricy vs other brands. It’s possible that with the Victron setup that it would deliver more than 4kw on an phase by taking power from the other inverter due to the Victron passthrough function. Sofar solar is a good brand but you would need a high voltage battery. 

If you don’t have any 3 phase equipment then the best would be to convert the DB to single phase depending on your peak power consumption and then have 2 or 3 inverters in parallel on that phase. 
 

I have installed a 3 phase system but it was 3 x 5kw Sunsynk units with 4 x Hubble AM2 batteries. Depending on your needs, I would convert to single phase and do 2 x 8kw Sunsynks in parallel. 
 

 

Hey Leshen 

 

Thank you for that, we generally use abit of underfloor (underactive thyroid necessitates this) as well as a pool heat pump (not used right now obv) and on a single phase we've experienced a lot of tripping of the DB. 

While we don't plan for any 3 phase appliances, it seems we rather have a 3 phase system.

I see the pylontech h2 is 48v for the sofar and the freedomwon (for the victron) is 52v to suit 48v inverters.

Would 2 8kw Sunsynks in parallel be a better option on two of the more used 3 phases then a sofar 15kw?

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7 minutes ago, 87 Dream said:

Hi Sayf123

Have to agree totally with Leshen on this. Three phase can be a bit of a nightmare when trying to install solar because each phase needing its own power. Yes some people opt to convert to single phase which involves a great deal of reworking the main DB box. 

One more option which can be visited is to keep the house 3 phase but reorder one of the phases as a backup or essential load phase. You get all the niceness of when it loadsheds your important stuff stays working & of course during the day or not loadshedding your system is being powered by solar etc. 

Did this type of install for a guy with 3 phase & hooked up 2 X Axpert Max in single phase parallel to feed his important essential phase on his DB box. 

So your options are more broader than you think ☺️ 

It's about exploring them all & then deciding what best fits your needs & budget.

87

Hey 87

Yes I'm leaning towards reordering maybe 2 phases for more essential items instead of only 1 of the 3, do you forsee this being a problem?

Over 2 and not 1 is just for better load balancing the 3 phase system or would unbalanced loads (as per Tariqs question) not be an issue?

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3 minutes ago, 87 Dream said:

The main issues that arise with the 3 phase setup I mentioned above is the wiring of the inverter. Make sure that the input of the said phase you need to power is the only Live connected to the inverter & most importantly the main DB box must have no faults. So many a 3 phase DB box & I have seen, even in a brand new house in one of the biggest established estates in Gauteng been delivered to a customer with active neutral faults on the main DB box. The quality of the wiring on the main DB needs to be 100% otherwise you run into lots of head scratching. 

87

Thank you for this, the new house electrical set up and solar installation is potentially the same company hence this can be brought up. 

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14 minutes ago, Tariq said:

@Leshen, your input would be appreciated, I have 3 phase supply ( 50 amp main breakers )I have my 5kW Sunsynk on one phase, the other two phases hardly have any continuous load on them, not worth having them on an inverter. My question is do the unbalanced loads on the three phases create an an issue 

ps no three phase equipment 

Hi Tariq. 
 

Unbalanced loads don’t create an issue per se. What you have is perfectly fine. The issue comes in when Eskom is billing you. 
 

Between 0-600kwh Eskom charges around R2 per kWh and over 600kwh it’s around R3 per kWh. If your load is unbalanced, and you for example use 700kwh on phase 1, 200kwh on phase 2 and 150kwh on phase 3, Eskom would charge you the rate based on the over 600kwh tariff. However if your load was balanced, say 350kwh per phase then you would be charged on the 0-600kwh tariff. 

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24 minutes ago, Sayf123 said:

Hey Leshen 

 

Thank you for that, we generally use abit of underfloor (underactive thyroid necessitates this) as well as a pool heat pump (not used right now obv) and on a single phase we've experienced a lot of tripping of the DB. 

While we don't plan for any 3 phase appliances, it seems we rather have a 3 phase system.

I see the pylontech h2 is 48v for the sofar and the freedomwon (for the victron) is 52v to suit 48v inverters.

Would 2 8kw Sunsynks in parallel be a better option on two of the more used 3 phases then a sofar 15kw?

With the Sofar, you would be limited to 5kw per phase. However with the Sunsynk, you would have 8kw per phase. As 87 Dream mentions, there are many options however it just needs a bit of management from your side. 
 

My home had a 3 phase supply, we applied with Eskom to downgrade to single phase and I have 1 x 8kw Sunsynk with 9360w of panels. I generate 1500kwh a month which is a lot. We manage it as we don’t turn everything on at once. But with an Eskom bill of around R600pm, the management is definitely worth it. 
 

 

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13 minutes ago, Tariq said:

Thanks Leshen, even in winter, I am hitting maybe 200 kWh a month from Eskom, rest from pv/batteries 

200kwh is great. I use about 150kwh a month from Eskom which I don’t mind 

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So first thing I'll discuss with my electrician is if we can convert to a single phase and have no tripping issues.

If that's a go, like mentioned I would ask for a quote on 2 inverters in parallel and a nicely sized array and battery bank. 

 

Otherwise if 3 phase needs to be kept, I'd maybe have a solar backup on 1 or 2 of the 3 phases instead of using a 3 phase inverter.

 

Last option would be to stick with a 3 phase inverter?

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7 minutes ago, Sayf123 said:

So first thing I'll discuss with my electrician is if we can convert to a single phase and have no tripping issues.

If that's a go, like mentioned I would ask for a quote on 2 inverters in parallel and a nicely sized array and battery bank. 

 

Otherwise if 3 phase needs to be kept, I'd maybe have a solar backup on 1 or 2 of the 3 phases instead of using a 3 phase inverter.

 

Last option would be to stick with a 3 phase inverter?

If single phase isn’t enough then another option would be to downgrade to a 2 phase supply from Eskom and install 1 inverter per phase. 

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I'm facing a similar scenario for my installation tomorrow. 

Also have a 3 phase, from city power and wondering what the best set up would be. 

My thinking is to have the following :

1 phase for my underfloor heating which will be completely seperate from the inverter (never use it) 

1 phase for essential 

1 phase for non essential. 

 

I am installing an 8kw sunsynk with 2 x 3.5kw pylontech batteries. 

 

Would this setup be possible or is there a better solution. 

 

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58 minutes ago, Mark M said:

I'm facing a similar scenario for my installation tomorrow. 

Also have a 3 phase, from city power and wondering what the best set up would be. 

My thinking is to have the following :

1 phase for my underfloor heating which will be completely seperate from the inverter (never use it) 

1 phase for essential 

1 phase for non essential. 

 

I am installing an 8kw sunsynk with 2 x 3.5kw pylontech batteries. 

 

Would this setup be possible or is there a better solution. 

 

 

Hi Mark. 
 

With 1 x Sunsynk, 2 phases will be powered directly from the Grid. The 3rd phase will be powered from your inverter. Try and get most every day items onto the phase powered by the inverter like geysers etc so as to reduce your energy consumption.  

With 2 x US3000C the BMS will have a 74A limitation however on the battery charge page, set the discharge and charge amps to 70A just so that the inverter does the protecting which is better for the battery. 

 

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Hi Mark,

   I have three phase supply , on one phase I have the inverter, which has geyser, tumble dryer,washing machine, dishwasher, pool pump, kettle, microwave, one aircon and all plug/lights. On the second phase, I have the electric oven and two seldom used air cons and the third phase is for a cottage.

  

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5 hours ago, 87 Dream said:

Great ways to start👍👍

Off topic: if any guys in the Sunsynk world care to share their knowledge. The new 12kW three phase machine spreads the power distribution over the 3 phases equally or does it have some dark magic trick of going over capacity with solar?? 

The reason I ask is because from a costing & available energy perspective looking at what are better options in this regard???

Anyone who has this machine installed & running yet?

Ok sorry topic hijack over 🥺

87

Hi 87

With the 3 phase Sunsynk, you can get an extra 2kw on a phase if needs be so up to 6kw. 

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44 minutes ago, Electronmonkey said:

Would 3x the new Growatt SPF5000 ES 5 kw inverter at around R12000 each be a good alternative? 

The growatt are axpert type so the grid tied features are not as good as the newer parity inverters. 

If you do go with the growatt you will need 15kw of pv panels and 30kwh of lithium batteries. This will take you offgrid with some adjustment in your usage patterns. 12k x3 = R36k + R150k batteries + R90k for pv panels + installation. That's +- R300k which means you are only saving R21k by going with the growatts instead of the deye/sunsynk. 

If you underspec your system won't work as you expect it.

That's why the sunsynk is so popular because it makes the best of what is available. 

Edited by Buyeye
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14 minutes ago, 87 Dream said:

Thanks Leshen, I know that they are pretty new kit on the block so to speak, the 12kw 3phase product. Do you know as a rough guide what pricing level these units will be coming in at? 

My thoughts on 3 phase Electricity is to have some redundancy. I don't like the idea of having one machine powering everything, because when the thing goes Haikona you a little bit stuck. With 3 inverters feeding each phase at least at a pinch you can do a phase shuffle & feed one if one runs into a problem of sorts. Then Grid power the rest. I'm really not into brand bashing or anything of the sort, I drink Windhoek, the next man enjoys a Hansa but in my opinion Solar has to be affordable otherwise what is the point of it all. 

China is making remarkable inverters & the EV market is just on the horizon but having all my eggs in one more expensive device that is also a product of China doesn't make me feel all that comfortable.

Then there is the Grid tied features which I honestly don't care to pay for because in our country & others has just never taken off. I have had romantic ideas of selling to the utility company but unless some drastic plan of action changes the minds of Eskom it's just not a reality. Therefore fancy kit which you will never use this side of the next 5yrs or decade.

Then there is also pushing equipment to its design limits. I wouldn't ever stress a machine to the limit. The manual says XYZ so therefore I push it to that limit & operate normally there: I honestly don't think it will last long in such an environment. Same as the 1C rating banter on the batteries doing the rounds. 1C is a nice to have, do I want to take her there to test it rather not. These batteries are not cheap why would you try to test it on your own model. Leave that for the manufacturer to specify & try out.

Seems that these conversations are cranking up more & more as loadshedding is becoming real reality to us all. The solar Revolution is upon us 👍👍👍

87

 

Hi 87

We are all waiting for the 3 phase Sunsynk to arrive however the price would have to be reasonable or else we could easily do 3 x 5kw Sunsynks and have a more versatile system. 

Sunsynk is busy developing a 12kw single phase inverter with a 15kw MPPT so if money is no option then one of those per phase would be ideal :) 

Regarding EV, I’m looking forward to that as then my next project, if I do decide to build again, would be 3 x 12kw Sunsynk single phase inverters with 84 x 540w panels and possible 6 Hubble AM2s. Then Eskom can take a hike and I would easily be able to charge my EV. But yeah nice to dream.

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  • 8 months later...

We have three phase which are not balanced with Eskom…..nothing new……we have the solis three phase inverter tie in grid system and I am yet to see a huge saving.  My solar installer just continuously changes settings…it’s a year now, paid a fortune for this set up and feel like we have been ripped. Any recommend some company that come come check this entire system out?

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19 hours ago, MarcT said:

We have three phase which are not balanced with Eskom…..nothing new……we have the solis three phase inverter tie in grid system and I am yet to see a huge saving.  My solar installer just continuously changes settings…it’s a year now, paid a fortune for this set up and feel like we have been ripped. Any recommend some company that come come check this entire system out?

Hi Marc.

What is your monthly consumption and of that, what is the inverter producing and how much is coming from the grid?

Also what size inverter and how many panels?

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  • 1 month later...
On 2021/06/06 at 5:49 PM, Leshen said:

we could easily do 3 x 5kw Sunsynks and have a more versatile system. 

Sunsynk is busy developing a 12kw single phase inverter with a 15kw MPPT so if money is no option then one of those per phase would be ideal :) 

 would be 3 x 12kw Sunsynk single phase inverters with 84 x 540w panels and possible 6 Hubble AM2s.

This is interesting. Why is it better to have 3 x single phase to make a 3 Ph system then say, 2 x 12Kw 3 Ph ?

What are the in's and out's of the system being more versatile by using 3 single Ph inverters to make 3 Ph Vs a 3 Ph inverter ?

Hope someone could explain this.

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Personally 3 x single phase would mean if 1 fail - lightning or other 2phases with single phase loads can still be used via PV instead of having the whole system down awaiting return of repaired unit.

The negative is higher cost.

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