7 hours ago, Anarchy05 said:

one of THOSE municipalities

Just watching the news here about a protest in Secunda, 500 million in debt, cut off by Eskom, and now protestors are burning down vehicles and looting shops. I know one cannot generalise, make blanket statements, and that the ones doing the looting are likely just opportunistic criminals who now have a handy excuse... but goodness gracious, seriously, how on earth does it help to plunder the local shop? Aaag lekker man, now you can walk much further next time you need bread or milk, but not only you, many other old people, single mothers and others already struggling to look after their families. Mooi man!

15 hours ago, Anarchy05 said:

Oh sorry, didnt think that will make a very big impact

Reason I see this as important, Eg. I would be willing to assist, but it would not be feasable if assistance is required for eg in Capetown and the assistant is based in Limpopo.

Good luck there in Witbank, You are mostly "closest" to the Electricity Generation, yet you guys have scheduled shedding due to mismanagement of funds

A bit far for me to assist physically.

21 hours ago, Anarchy05 said:

Oh and also where and how to connect the HA02

The HA-02 is a small black box with 4 pairs of wires (red+black), you simply connect one pair of wires to each battery. One HA-02 will do up to 4 batteries, so if you add 4 more batteries then get a 2nd HA-02 to go with them.

There are other methods of connecting a single HA-02 to 8/12/16 batts etc, but the most effective and safest system is 1 HA per 4 batteries - they are cheap enough in comparison to the battery cost so I suggest that you stick to that formula.

22 hours ago, Anarchy05 said:

I am not too clued up on the install, would ask if somebody has extra time if they could provide me with a drawing of what a proper install would look like as I still need to get some extra stuff. Not sure what I need. 

If I have forgotten something please add.

A BMV 702 or similar battery monitor is all I would add...

22 hours ago, Anarchy05 said:

I am not too clued up on the install

If you would like to view an installed system, have a valid passport and are prepared to travel to Randburg then I am more than happy to walk you through my install. PM me if interested (just not this weekend, I will be away).

13 minutes ago, pilotfish said:

have a valid passport

LOL! I thought you only needed that to come to The Republic of Cape Town? :-P

I heard Cape Town will let anyone in so long as you bring a 5L water.

Thank you very much for all the valid input, I just seem to struggle sending ChrisR a pm about the HA02,any assistance would be appreciated. I can import it but the cost of fast shipping would probably be more than the item itself. 

I would say figuring out what is required for grounding is important. We've had these discussions before, but if you have a TN-S or TN-C-S earthing at your place (I doubt you'd have anything else in the city), your earth/neutral bond is either at the transformer or at the point of entry. The inverter disconnects the live and neutral when it runs in inverter mode and with that it also disconnects the earth-neutral bond. Without the bond, the earth leakage doesn't work and your installation is unsafe. So it is essential to check whether your inverter provides a means to bond neutral and earth.

18 minutes ago, plonkster said:

I would say figuring out what is required for grounding is important.

I have seen this coming up a number of times and so decided to settle this (for myself) right now.

I have just carried out a PSC (prospective short circuit) test on my Axpert MKS5 while in Battery Mode (all loads supplied by inverter) with the following result;

     PSC at Grid Input - 500amps (L-N and L-E)

     PSC at INV Output - 129 amps (L-N)

     PSC at INV Output - 205 amps (L-E)

So a L-N short circuit at the output of the inverter will result in a current of 129amps and L-E will result in 205amps, which allows for an MCB rating of up to 63amps (PSC must be more than double your MCB rating). I am happy with that result and am satisfied that in my situation no additional earthing is required.

51 minutes ago, plonkster said:

The inverter disconnects the live and neutral when it runs in inverter mode

The difference in the results indicates that this is correct, but that the Axpert inverter then creates its own E/N bond at the inverter. Also if no E/N bond exists then you would normally find E/N = 1/2 L/N voltage (so about 115V). The E/N voltages measured now are as follows;

     V(EN) at Grid Input - 20mV

     V(EN) at INV output - 200mV

A V(EN) result in excess of 50V is regarded as unsafe,

53 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Without the bond, the earth leakage doesn't work and your installation is unsafe

An earth leakage measures current difference between L/N and trips if this exceeds the rating (most EL are rated at 32mA but will trip between 20-25mA on test). This will work irrespective of the quality of your earth connection - that is why it is such a great safety device and should be tested regularly in your home. 

Despite the above please note that not all equipment is required to be on earth leakage, and as such a working earth leakage is no guarantee of complete safety within the home. A good quality earth (correctly installed and connected) is critical to the safety of any electrical installation.

 

1 hour ago, pilotfish said:

Axpert inverter then creates its own E/N bond at the inverter

Earlier models didn't do that. It is good to know they fixed it :-)

1 hour ago, pilotfish said:

earth leakage measures current difference between L/N and trips if this exceeds the rating

If earth is left floating, a ground fault might not cause a sufficiently large fault current and it might not trip. I'm not an expert at all, just speaking from my own understanding that the point of TN-S grounding is that a fault causes a large fault current, so RCDs (aka earth leakages) work really well and can detect even small faults. Without the bond, you don't have the advantage of a large fault current.

But if the problem's been fixed in the inverter, then none of this matters anymore :-)

That is not to detract from your excellent argument for RCDs. They are used even in TT earthing setups :-)

4 minutes ago, plonkster said:

If earth is left floating, a ground fault might not cause a sufficiently large fault current and it might not trip

That is exactly correct, and is the reason for doing the PSC test above. A CB should trip immediately at double the rated current, below that it will have a time component - so a 10A CB might take 1 hour to trip at 11A, but trip immediately at 20A. It is for this reason that the PSC should be at least double the MCB rating so that in the event of a LN or LE fault the MCB will trip immediately.

As an example if your Earth Loop Impedance is say 10ohms (very poor earth!) this would result in a PSC of about 22amps in a LE short scenario - your 63A MCB would then never trip and allow your exposed earth components (oven, geyser, white appliances etc) to sit happily at the Live voltage!

If you touch an "earthed" component in the above scenario you would be in direct contact with Live voltage, if you then touched another item that was correctly earthed you would become the conductor and a shock current will pass through you.

If you have a functioning Earth Leakage as part of your MCB it would trip as soon as the fault current exceeds 32mA, because the current exiting the Live cable is not in balance with the current returning on the Neutral cable.

My understanding of the bonding is this, that it maximises the voltage between live and earth, and therefore even small faults of a couple kilo-ohm allows sufficient current to flow to imbalance an RCD.

Consider this hypothetical situation where there is no bond. The neutral to earth voltage now sits at a cool 90V or so (I've personally seen that). Now lets say a cord is damaged somewhere, and a neutral conductor is exposed, and there is also water in the area so some there is a high resistance path from that 90V down to zero. Let's say this is around 10mA. That won't trip the RCD, but is potentially dangerous to someone coming in contact with that wire. Similarly, if the live wire is exposed and leaks to ground, there will be a potential difference of 140V to earth and it might only leak only 15mA, again not enough to trip it.

Now even without the bond, the things are still safer than without the RCD, because they are generally rated to trip at currents that are low enough that you should survive, that is to say, the 10mA or 15mA in my example might scare you a little but probably won't kill you. BUT... with the bond in place you maximise the safety, now there is the highest and lowest possible difference between earth and the two conductors, and bad events has the highest possible fault current.

All that you say above is correct, hence my comment that the quality of earth is critical to safety of an electrical installation.

But an Earth Leakage measures imbalance and doesn't care where that imbalance is going, it may be going to earth (the normal case) or to another circuit in a case of incorrect wiring. The moment the imbalance exceeds the rated tripping current it will trip.

If you have no electrical earth at all to your house and something comes about that results you touching a live part and a tap or a window frame or anything that will cause you to become a conductor, then the earth leakage will trip if the current passing through you exceeds the tripping current (which is theoretically lower than death current). That is the value of a functioning earth leakage - it will protect you from death currents irrespective of any other factor in your installation.

Another (and final) illustration of this point;

Say you have a 3 phase installation and are using a 3 phase E/L, if you get a shock between 2 phases then the earth leakage wont trip because mathematically there is no imbalance, you are just a load connected between phases and you may well be toast.

If you have the same situation as above but are using 3x single phase E/L's then one or both will trip because an imbalance has been created.

There is no earth fault current involved in the above scenarios.

On 10/16/2017 at 9:29 AM, Anarchy05 said:

Thank you very much to all for the assistance, 

I am not too clued up on the install, would ask if somebody has extra time if they could provide me with a drawing of what a proper install would look like as I still need to get some extra stuff. Not sure what I need. The install will be

4x 105ah batteries in series for 48v

4kw inverter

6 x JA 260w panels 2 strings of 3x panels(in series + to - I would guess?)

and then I am not too sure as to should I fit some fuses and an extra db etc?

Thanks again

Hi Anarchy05,

I have just found this useful forum and am not surprised to find quite a few Witbankers here...

I installed my system last weekend 15/10/17 and it consists of 6 x 300W panels, 4 x 110AH batteries and a 5Kva Mecer inverter.

You are welcome to come have a look although I must point out that i am a total novice and am still learning as I go along.

 

 

 

@pilotfish, did I tell you about that time my dog tested the RCD? It was a wet rainy day in August 2013, some people were working at the house and an extension cord was plugged into an outside outlet, and our Jack Russell hadn't quite gotten rid of the habit of treating all new objects in his space as a chew toy. The next moment all hell broke loose as the lights went out and the most sorrowful yelping filled the air...

After that the chewing problem was solved. I imagine the dog must have almost died that day.

I have personally tested on a number of occasions (just being careless, not chewing any cables like Jack) - it brightens your day!

I had a nice big jolt the other day from my Multi! Everything was turned off properly, there was no power on the input and the inverter was off. I had the input and output cables unplugged at the bottom of the inverter. When plugging the input back in (still with no grid power) I suddenly got one of the biggest jolts of my life! My only guess is that I somehow managed to touch one of the adjacent pins on the other end, that there was a high-voltage charged capacitor there, and it gave me a nice big wake-up call!

I know the Multi has a small SMPS, so it can start up when the grid returns and the battery is dead... you know, the one they dropped in the latest Axperts, the missing TX6. If it has one, then it explains why there was a little charge waiting for me there!

6 hours ago, GVC said:

Hi Anarchy05,

I have just found this useful forum and am not surprised to find quite a few Witbankers here...

I installed my system last weekend 15/10/17 and it consists of 6 x 300W panels, 4 x 110AH batteries and a 5Kva Mecer inverter.

You are welcome to come have a look although I must point out that i am a total novice and am still learning as I go along.

 

 

 

Hi, please drop me a pm with your number if you are willing to let me come and have a look, thanks alot!

Just a wild left curve ball.

First just get an Axpert and some batteries only, seeing as a Axpert is a UPS first, and take it from there.

If Eksom is there, all is fine, Eskom goes, Axpert and batteries take over.

Then, if it is still viable, need is there, get solar panels to do it all.

Obviously if power is out for days on end, then panels are a must, but lifestyle changes are on the cards I tell you. 

Can someone please assist me? 

I got around to installing my system, 3 panels at 260w each in series. And the 5kva axpert and 4 batteries just for backup. 

Anyway, my pv charge isnt working. When I open the pv circuit I get 101vdc. But when closed its just not charging. And watchpower just says cpu2 fw is 0.00000

dont know what to check etc

Dont worry I came right with a clamp meter. Somehow from the disconnect got confused with positive and negative and swopped them. Stupid mistake

Hows the rest of your install going?