2 hours ago, The Bulldog said:

It allows you to run your loads on the generator while at the same time giving your batteries a boost - combined it means you can aim to run your generator at its designed maximum efficiency load so you get the most bang for the fuel spend. 

Just bear in mind that your charging amps must be less than the gennie output. My charging setup is for 49 amps. With my 6kW generator this leaves no amps for additional work. What is nice is the generator doing 100% reloading batteries - high efficiency at a price. Lol

10 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

If you don't use AC_out2, then you must have a Carlo.

Was thinking along those lines, for loads which you don't have connected. 

Thanks

4 hours ago, plonkster said:

Otherwise, the most cost effective thing to do is to run your loads from the generator and to use all surplus to recharge the batteries. Typically one would at least complete the Bulk phase of charging on the generator, and then finish with solar (if possible).

Thanks, I was lean towards this. So effectively the generator replaces Eskom in this regard and is part of the Grid-Tie side. This would only be needed if the load-shedding time exceeds the system design backup, which then would allow me to run off the generator and charge the batteries again. Once charged I can switch the generator off again. 

@The Terrible Triplett

Just for my sanity sizing the battery backup, currently my power usage is running at a constant 0.5KW between 7pm and 5am which I am rather proud of. (This to be considered my essential loads, lots of LED lights, alarm, electric fence, tv, decoder, broadband, fridge).

This would mean (not taking losses into account) on FreedomWon Home 5/4 Lithium battery running at 70% DoD (3.5 KWH) I should be able to run for (3.5 / 0.5) for 7 hours or 9 hours @ 90% DoD (4.5 KWH).

Is this right? What other real-world losses am I missing out on? Inverter Loss, Cable Impedance??

Edited March 25, 20197 yr by d3nominat0r

1 hour ago, Johandup said:

Just bear in mind that your charging amps must be less than the gennie output. My charging setup is for 49 amps. With my 6kW generator this leaves no amps for additional work. What is nice is the generator doing 100% reloading batteries - high efficiency at a price. Lol

On the Victron inverters you can set the AC input limit. Then it holds the input at that limit and charges the battery with whatever remains after you subtract the loads. Same effect, generator runs at close to 100%, but it doesn't trip if you turn on a load.

45 minutes ago, d3nominat0r said:

Inverter Loss, Cable Impedance??

Inverter is about wot +-10-20w worst case - I guess. Axpert are wot 50w?

Cable, naaa, not an issue.

25 minutes ago, plonkster said:

On the Victron inverters you can set the AC input limit. Then it holds the input at that limit and charges the battery with whatever remains after you subtract the loads. Same effect, generator runs at close to 100%, but it doesn't trip if you turn on a load.

Is there any trickery you know of to get the "AC in"  to recognise its on generator vrs grid where one could set in a lower charge rate at all? Like a current sensor in the changeover box?

 

6 hours ago, 2una said:

Is there any trickery you know of to get the "AC in"  to recognise its on generator vrs grid where one could set in a lower charge rate at all? Like a current sensor in the changeover box?

Well, ideally you'd use a Quattro and not a Multi. The Quattro has two inputs (one for grid and one for generator/shore/whatever) and you can set the limits for the inputs individually.

You can also set it via modbus-tcp, register 22 on whatever the slaveid is for the Multi (246 when using a CCGX, 242 when using a Venus-GX). There is a document on the Victron website that explains the modbus-tcp assignments. So you can use some sort of software and/or PLC goodness to get it done.

3 hours ago, plonkster said:

Well, ideally you'd use a Quattro and not a Multi. The Quattro has two inputs (one for grid and one for generator/shore/whatever) and you can set the limits for the inputs individually.

You can also set it via modbus-tcp, register 22 on whatever the slaveid is for the Multi (246 when using a CCGX, 242 when using a Venus-GX). There is a document on the Victron website that explains the modbus-tcp assignments. So you can use some sort of software and/or PLC goodness to get it done.

Ok thanks will look into that one, was also looking last night & maybe it can be done via the "charge current control" assistant ...guessing maybe a relay signal to the "Aux in" when the generator line is live......stuff for my installer anyway but looks like its maybe possible to get a workaround happening 

Edited March 26, 20197 yr by 2una

9 minutes ago, 2una said:

... maybe possible to get a workaround happening 

Just spit balling. Maybe a relay on the input from the gennie, or use the one of the built in relays on the VenusGX?

If it is energized, alter the charge current on the VenusGX. Would need a teeny bit of programming on the VenusGX side.

19 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I would start off with a MPPT 150/100 grid tied setup - to have lots of maneuvering space ito more panels:
Victron MultiPlus II Inverter 48/3000 with MK3-USB to do firmware updates
Victron BlueSolar MPPT regulator max 150/100 with VE.Direct to USB cable for MPPT (1.8m)
VenusGX 
Carlo Gavazzi with RS485 to USB - 5m - you can extend it with a UTP cable.

With Pylontech batteries.
And say a 2,8kw array max.

Then with data over time I'll decide if I need more batts and / or panels.

And keep about R60k in the bank. 🙂 

On 2019/02/22 at 9:58 AM, The Terrible Triplett said:

For optimal savings: (One can do a Excel spreadhseet, or one can do it like this:)
Reduce the evening loads when everyone is asleep to as low as possible.
2kw 200l geyser is on a timer from 9h00 - 11h00
1.1kw pool pump on a timer from 11h00 - 17h00 - IF one has a poolpump, most don't.

It has been mentioned to me that by using NodeRed installed on a VenusGX and Sonof switches that one can add the functionality to start / stop loads based on selected parameters.

I..e when the pump / geyser comes on and the panels cannot produce sufficient power, inverter is drawing say i.e. >300w from Eskom, switch off that circuit and every 30min try again, between the hours as stipulated above. Simple and low tech. (We will get to this. 😉 )

I recon there are more of me out there than not.

Budgetary prices are (seeing as I shop hard):
Equipment:
Victron MultiPlus II Inverter 48/3000 with MK3-USB  
Victron BlueSolar MPPT 150/100 with VE.Direct cable (1.8m) 
VenusGX 
Carlo Gavazzi with RS485 to USB (5m)
BMV712 Smart (has Bluetooth but one can save +-R1k and use a 700)
Budget: +-R 36 000.00

Solar Panels - Annual average of 5.5 hours per day of max use:
350w Canadian Kumax solar panels: (using 350w as a baseline) as they are all over, at a good price and good warranties as each panels has a serial number
And putting 2 in series and 5 in parallel one stays well within the volts with a lot of potential to add more panels. See below
The larger the panel the cheaper the mounting costs.
Labour rate of a professional installer R 1 800 per day
Budget: R 1 950.00 x 10 = R 19 500 + R 3 600 = +-R 23 100

Batteries (+-8-10 year life at SOC of 80%)
8 x J200RE 12v 200ah with 48v watering kit
Budget: R 45 300

Total: R 104 400.00

@The Terrible Triplett
Based on your two posts, I think it clearly aligns with my expectations. I would just swap out the J200RE Batteries for either a FreedomWon or Pylontech Lithuim solution at the same price point. Is the SmartSolar preferred above the BlueSolar?

What additional sundries should be budgeted for? Panel mounts/brackets, wiring, fuses, breakers, trunking, etc? I know this is dependent on meters to be run, but we can work on averages for the point of the exercise. Thanks

Duplicate post

Edited March 26, 20197 yr by d3nominat0r
Duplicate post

15 minutes ago, d3nominat0r said:

@The Terrible Triplett
Based on your two posts, I think it clearly aligns with my expectations. I would just swap out the J200RE Batteries for either a FreedomWon or Pylontech Lithuim solution at the same price point. Is the SmartSolar preferred above the BlueSolar?

What additional sundries should be budgeted for? Panel mounts/brackets, wiring, fuses, breakers, trunking, etc? I know this is dependent on meters to be run, but we can work on averages for the point of the exercise. Thanks

Yes, I used the J200RE's on purpose as they are a wee bit more complicated. Lithiums are the way to go. Me, I'm waiting on Trojan Lithiums to hit SA market.

Now I shopped hard! 🙂 

To give you an idea: (This part is how long is the string question, for you can do it NEED vs WANT levels)
1) Mounting panels - you have the panels in hand: 6 panels costed me about R8000 of which R1750 was 1 days labour. Rest was frames and 6mm2 wire.
2) Breakers and fuses: Build a one string combiner box with 2 x fuses and double pole breaker in a IP65 DB board box for about R1200.
3) 300amp battery fuse and holder about R500
4) Cabling: 50mm2 battery + 25mm2 MPPT to inverter + 16mm2 Combiner to MPPT and lugs about wot, R500 I guess.

The trunking and all that is really how long is that string for that is where it gets complicated to cost per person.

This is what I ended up with in case you missed previous pics. Costed a wee bit more than I thought it would, the "cupboard" doors, open top and bottom. 🙂 
Batts and Combiner box are in the braai room, behind the wall where all is mounted.
Kept the Combiner box "outside" because if ever there is a lightning strike, that there is a cavity wall between Combiner and equipment, as I can manually unplug the MPPT.

27 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

1) Mounting panels - you have the panels in hand: 6 panels costed me about R8000 of which R1750 was 1 days labour. Rest was frames and 6mm2 wire.

Thanks, just a question on this. I a reading it right is saying it costs R 1333 on average per panel for fitment, brackets and wiring. Thus, a panel costs around R 2000 plus R 1333 for frames, fitment and wiring???? Does not sound right for me.

1 minute ago, d3nominat0r said:

Thanks, just a question on this. I a reading it right is saying it costs R 1333 on average per panel for fitment, brackets and wiring. Thus, a panel costs around R 2000 plus R 1333 for frames, fitment and wiring???? Does not sound right for me.

O easy. And there where more expensive quotes.

The frames where the best the installer chose to work with and the wiring was about 10-15 meters plus earthing the panels.

I would assume he added a % on the parts, which I would guess I could have gotten cheaper, but then it would not be viable for them to install.

And there was NO WAY I was going on that roof at that height having to remove 5 other panels first. 🙂 

So ja, I paid a wee bit more than DIY but not that much as store bought frames + earthing + brackets +  clicps + roof clamps + what what adds up quickly to a couple to thousand.

2 minutes ago, d3nominat0r said:

Thanks, just a question on this. I a reading it right is saying it costs R 1333 on average per panel for fitment, brackets and wiring. Thus, a panel costs around R 2000 plus R 1333 for frames, fitment and wiring???? Does not sound right for me.

I recently put up a new frame (space for 4 x 350W modules). I also bought 3 x PV modules but let's assume it was 4. The PV modules would have been R7400, about 8k with delivery. The Frame was 3.5k with delivery. That was before labour (cause I mos werk verniet 😛 ). OK, so this was triangles for a flat roof... but  if I had to put brackets on a tile roof the time it takes to neatly move roof tiles and make a notch in them with an angle grinder where required will hit you again on the labour side.

So truth be told, 2k for the panel and 1k for the hardware to mount it... and some labour on top. 1.3k is probably not that far out. Will probably get better when you do larger arrays, I do believe the daily fee weighs heavy on TTT's number.

Just to give you an idea. Some years ago (about 5) I made a frame from steel. I had a welder, steel was cheap, and I knew it was a stop-gap thing at the time. You do what you have to. I threw that frame off the roof 3 weeks ago. This is what it looked like.

Now that frame took a few days to make! The steel was cheap, but it had to be cut to size, welded, and then painted more than one layer (that was the downfall of this one... wrong product!) and finally installed on the roof. I replaced it with this one (about halfway done on this picture):

The material was three times the price, but the labour was so much less!

(Yes, that is a level... cause apparently I have OCD... and yes that is an non-cordless drill... cause the cordless has a dead battery) 🙂

21 minutes ago, plonkster said:

I do believe the daily fee weighs heavy on TTT's number.

O, believe me, it did not!

Those two men that was here the whole day in the sun, I would have paid them more!!! They got my respect!

6 minutes ago, plonkster said:

... cause apparently I have OCD...

We both do. I just twitch my eye. 🙂 

2 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Those two men that was here the whole day in the sun, I would have paid them more!!! They got my respect!

Now in terms of time, I spent an hour or two spead over a few days. I estimate I had the job done in about 8 hours. That is man alone -- as in I have to get off the roof and fetch my own tools. So I guess a man with a team could probably do it in a bit less... but that man has overheads. It adds up, but for good reason.

Thanks, it these "hidden" costs that all add up at the end.  I will be installing on a 40m^2 area on my north facing double garage tiled mono pitched roof which has an pitch of 18.5 degrees. What would be your suggestions to install on this roof?  I will need to improve the angle.

Edited March 26, 20197 yr by d3nominat0r

47 minutes ago, d3nominat0r said:

Thanks, it these "hidden" costs that all add up at the end.  I will be installing on a 40m^2 area on my north facing double garage tiled mono pitched roof which has an pitch of 18.5 degrees. What would be your suggestions to install on this roof?  I will need to improve the angle.

I was thinking of actually building a support square tubing frame along the side and back walls with a support in the middle resting on the tile roof, therefor not messing with the existing tile roof but resting on the bring walls running along the sides and back. I can raise the frame with 80cm at the back by the necessary amount to obtain the 26 degree angle.  This frame can then easily accommodate the amount of panel required.  I can then do 5 per row, 2 rows to get me to the 10 panels.

I also have similar equal roof areas facing east and west as well. 😉

Edited March 26, 20197 yr by d3nominat0r

1 hour ago, d3nominat0r said:

Thanks, it these "hidden" costs that all add up at the end.

What made me pay an installer was the new panel mounts was right in the path of the North Western storms winds hitting us smack in the face.

So I'm wondering, if you talk frames and all that, maybe consult with a specialist on that, seeing as stronger winds all over, being the new norm.

You do get brackets for tile roofs, that slide under the tiles.

But your frame idea, the cooler the panels the better.

 

55 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

What made me pay an installer was the new panel mounts was right in the path of the North Western storms winds hitting us smack in the face.

Where would be best to start looking for a Johannesburg installer?

19 minutes ago, d3nominat0r said:

Where would be best to start looking for a Johannesburg installer?

Drop me a PM.