It is not ESS. it is the NRS setting on the inverter itself.

26 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

It is not ESS. it is the NRS setting on the inverter itself.

This setting is only relevant for a grid parallel system (the various HUBS and ESS).

Any other mode of operation has the inverter switched off if the transfer relay is closed.

Is there any reason why we cannot use Victron's new Quattro range of inverters? On the list of approved inverters for the City of Cape Town the new Quattro inverter range is again not listed. 

It is not a new inverter. The Quattro has been around for a long time. It is almost identical to the Multiplus but has an additional A/C input.

If it is not on the list you cannot use it. No exceptions and no discussion on how to use it legally will be entered into by COCT at this point in time.

This is not a technical matter - rather it is not certified as component to NRS-097 and probably will never be (hope I am wrong here). It does comply technically but as long as you do not have the South African certification for it you are out of luck. COCT does not accept VDE or any of the many other certifications this inverter has under its belt. It's Boeries en Fleis or nothing...

The Cape Town List is really just a compilation of inverters with NRS097-2-1 papers. Larger Victron inverters (5kva, 10kva) with certification will follow in good time. I've seen some early examples already but unfortunately can't say what the time to market is like.

 This system is of a very unhappy farmer and he want answers after 3 years 350 K for a 10 kva system 10 kva panels 4 series Two Schneider Inverters One Victron 48 v Quantum grid tie system. Two Schneider was in Grid tie but Victron not helping charging when grid went of 180 Ah batteries x 8 did not stay charged. Two companies was involved and their service was poor. No MPPT to charge batteries no coular code to watch system. 

Power Generation:

10kW single Phase Grid Tied Inverter System (2 x Schneider Electric RL5000s)

10kWp Solar Array (40Panels, Sloped-roof Mounting Structure)

Back-up Power:

10kW Single Phase Inverter (1 x Victron Quattro 48V)

8.8kWh Battery Kit (8 x 180Ah Batteries, Cabinets & Monitor)

 

The 40 panels are connected together 10 at a time to form 4 incoming lines. I have the following concerns that I would like addressed:

 

1.                    The system is configured so that the batteries are charged from Eskom power. When the Eskom power goes off the panels do not charge the batteries at all. This is a major problem for me as my backup hours could be greatly extended if the panels were charging the batteries when Eskom is down. There is currently no charge controller for the batteries.

2.                    There is no monitoring system of any sort. I have no idea of generation VS consumption. I need to have some form of monitoring system installed on the Schneider as well as on the Victron.

3.                    The system is grid tied and I sell back to the Municipality. The rates that they buy from me is very low compared to the rates that I buy from them. I would like a solution where at night when the sun goes down that I use my batteries as opposed to paying for peak period rates. When the batteries go lower than a certain % then the system should switch back to Eskom power and also charge the batteries.

 In a nutshell that is what I am looking for plus any other advice that will give me better performance from the investment.

What was supposed to be done why  two Schneider inverter first place with 10 Kva Victron 48? Is this not over kill and batteries is not charging when grid go off. 

Lets not mess up this thread - it is not yet a pure Victron setup.

1 hour ago, Johan Helberg said:

 This system is of a very unhappy farmer and he want answers after 3 years 350 K for a 10 kva system 10 kva panels 4 series Two Schneider Inverters One Victron 48 v Quantum grid tie system. Two Schneider was in Grid tie but Victron not helping charging when grid went of 180 Ah batteries x 8 did not stay charged. Two companies was involved and their service was poor. No MPPT to charge batteries no coular code to watch system. 

Lets chat here: https://powerforum.co.za/topic/3312-grid-tie-problems-batteries-not-charging-3-inverters/#comment-50282

The best news EVER for solar hybrid grid tied connections! 

My install is legal and meets all the requirements ... because CoCT has at last clarified the situation with the schematic below!!! 
 

The bad news: They are not budging, at this point in time, on the main breaker and max inverter kw allowed i.e. 63amp breaker, 3.5kw max.

Seems to me (as a non-technical oak) the core issue they want to avert: Connecting the “Backup DB: Plugs and Light” back onto the main breaker after the inverter.
In doing that, not only is there the potential of it creating havoc on the inverter, it also bypasses ALL the safety measures built into the “NRS Approved Hybrid inverters” during a power failure, if done without a “Suitably Interlocked Changeover Switch for all phases and Neutral”.

Thanks @Fuenkli for contacting YOUR DA member, she is in my mind instrumental in getting to this result.
Thanks @Rautenk for you persistence and in not giving up, for asking repeatedly for this clarification without which we all would have been stumped.

The rest of you guys with NRS Approved Hybrid Inverters ... you can thank me later ... for all the pushing and shoving to get to this point. 😜 

 

For your perusal and enjoyment, I present the graph we all just received!!!
This is what you MUST do - and we don't connect the Backup DB back onto the main DB without a interlocked changeover switch for all phases, incl Neutral.

well done to you and your persistence and naturally those that assisted

If this what they'll sign-off, give it to them.

But there is more questions than answers in this design.

So get it signed off quick, this design will be revisited.

 

 

3 hours ago, phil.g00 said:

But there is more questions than answers in this design.

I think I opened that can of worms when I pointed out that the input and the output are latched together. So you may have a changeover on the output... whoop whoop... but the input is still tied to the grid and to the battery. Buuuut... if they aren't concerned about that... then neither am I 🙂

I don't think the picture is anything but an ILLUSTRATION of where the Change over switch must go.

You still need the sparkies CoC with the actual diagram submitted, and it looks nothing like Ryno's illustration. 

Here is what we submitted:

Someone will need to explain this to me using pictures and maybe even photos of a system... Maybe the two scenarios next to each other, the correct and the incorrect one so that I can understand what their original issue is? Whatever the case may be, congrats to all involved with the progress made.

3 minutes ago, Corné said:

Someone will need to explain this to me using pictures and maybe even photos of a system.

There never was a correct / incorrect issue, just one massive "lost in translation". 🙂 

Ah, this is a good result.

Will file this in my notes for when I am actually able to start my blue grid-tied install!

Edited April 12, 20197 yr by Minerva10210

On 2019/04/11 at 5:40 PM, The Terrible Triplett said:

The best news EVER for solar hybrid grid tied connections! 

My install is legal and meets all the requirements ... because CoCT has at last clarified the situation with the schematic below!!! 
 

The bad news: They are not budging, at this point in time, on the main breaker and max inverter kw allowed i.e. 63amp breaker, 3.5kw max.

Seems to me (as a non-technical oak) the core issue they want to avert: Connecting the “Backup DB: Plugs and Light” back onto the main breaker after the inverter.
In doing that, not only is there the potential of it creating havoc on the inverter, it also bypasses ALL the safety measures built into the “NRS Approved Hybrid inverters” during a power failure, if done without a “Suitably Interlocked Changeover Switch for all phases and Neutral”.

Thanks @Fuenkli for contacting YOUR DA member, she is in my mind instrumental in getting to this result.
Thanks @Rautenk for you persistence and in not giving up, for asking repeatedly for this clarification without which we all would have been stumped.

The rest of you guys with NRS Approved Hybrid Inverters ... you can thank me later ... for all the pushing and shoving to get to this point. 😜 

 

For your perusal and enjoyment, I present the graph we all just received!!!
This is what you MUST do - and we don't connect the Backup DB back onto the main DB without a interlocked changeover switch for all phases, incl Neutral.

I'm not sure I understand this diagram, please amuse my ignorance.

Case 1: grid is on, changeover connecting grid to backup DB. Inverter doenst then feed anything. 

Case 2: grid is on, changeover connecting inverter to backup DB. Inverter feeds backup db. Then if grid goes down, anti-islanding kicks in and inverter shuts down. So sub-db without supply.

I fail to see how the changeover in that location, with anti-islanding enabled, allows for the sub-db to be fed with the grid down?

Wouldnt this be the case for a grid tied non hybrid inverter? A hybrid inverter is allowed to island itself?

22 hours ago, MuKi said:

I'm not sure I understand this diagram, please amuse my ignorance.

I'm steering clear of this ... as it is the issue that bothers CoCT immensely.

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

I'm steering clear of this ... as it is the issue that bothers CoCT immensely.

I don't understand why it has to be controlled by the inverter. If it isn't... then you simply have a power failure if the inverter goes out. As long as it is suitably interlocking the output of the inverter won't be connected to the grid.

You can also leave the switch out completely. Problem solved.

It seems there is still some legacy confusion here. For inverters that work that way (the grid has to be isolated and then connected to the backup source), of course it has to be done in a safe way. With Victron inverters, the "island" is already connected to the inverter's output, no additional switching happens (other than the NRS097 stuff on the input side)... and since there is no additional switching going on, there is no possibility of feeding into the grid. Again, problem solved.

So leave this alone now. At least until something fails to sign off.

10 minutes ago, plonkster said:

You can also leave the switch out completely. Problem solved.

Hush, 

You've won a war, don't start another battle.

It seems to me the bureaucrats' interpretation of the regs say chop-over and chop-over you shall have, even if it's on the mantelpiece.

Let them keep face.

The price of a redundant chop-over is a small price to pay, rather than years of red tape entanglement.

At this stage, however benign, moot and nonsensical its placement is, get it signed off before they work it out for themselves how moot it is and put it where you don't want it.

Once there a few schemes signed off and this is common practice, then maybe is the time to use a common sense argument again.

 

13 minutes ago, plonkster said:

You can also leave the switch out completely. Problem solved.
So leave this alone now. At least until something fails to sign off.

Way mine is now is 100% according to CoCT / Engineer BECAUSE I do not have the "Always On" / Backup DB linked back to the main DB.

And I recall asking the Sparkie a long time ago how to do it / why not connect the Backup DB back to the main board ... Sparkie gave me "That Look".

Of course it can be done ... but Sparkies 1st reaction and now the CoCT graph that NOW makes it all clear, says a lot.

Because, as I also said, IF the inverter must come off the wall for whatever reason for a extended time, I'll just connect a plug to the "Always on" / Backup DB's input.

Bottom line:
Let sleeping dogs lie.
Get the papers.
Hope the inverters we use do not need to be replaced regularly.
What @phil.g00 said too.

Do not connect the secondary DB back to the main DB. We shall move on and not speak of this again. 🙂 

 

13 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Way mine is now is 100% according to CoCT / Engineer BECAUSE I do not have the "Always On" / Backup DB linked back to the main DB.

And I recall asking the Sparkie a long time ago how to do it / why not connect the Backup DB back to the main board ... Sparkie gave me "That Look".

Of course it can be done ... but Sparkies 1st reaction and now the CoCT graph that NOW makes it all clear, says a lot.

Because, as I also said, IF the inverter must come off the wall for whatever reason for a extended time, I'll just connect a plug to the "Always on" / Backup DB's input.

Bottom line:
Let sleeping dogs lie.
Get the papers.
Hope the inverters we use do not need to be replaced regularly.
What @phil.g00 said too.

Do not connect the secondary DB back to the main DB. We shall move on and not speak of this again. 🙂 

 

This isn't always possible, or desirable.

The way I see it, the interlocking manual change over should come in here on the highlighted part?

 

Can @Rautenk or @Fuenkli perhaps comment on this as well?

It would help a great deal, for many people, who haven't done installations yet to know what can be expected and not waste money unnecessarily.

 

 

10 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

Can @Rautenk or @Fuenkli perhaps comment on this as well?

as far as I know the CoCT has not officially disproved the change over switch for the back up (UPS) supply. But we will only know for sure once they sign off systems with this facility.  

Edited April 15, 20197 yr by Fuenkli

1 hour ago, SilverNodashi said:

@SilverNodashi - may I quickly sidetrack here...  I often see on electrical plans that the geyser / stove etc. are not behind the earth leakage, and on some other plans they are again.  I wonder what the reason for that is?

9 minutes ago, admiral said:

@SilverNodashi - may I quickly sidetrack here...  I often see on electrical plans that the geyser / stove etc. are not behind the earth leakage, and on some other plans they are again.  I wonder what the reason for that is?

Well, either the draftsmen left it out, accidently or on purpose, or the electrician didn't intend to install it? Some electricians simply don't add it

2 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

The way I see it, the interlocking manual change over should come in here on the highlighted part?

Maybe we should not confuse the bypass switch with this interlocking-switch-thing, even though functionally they could be the same thing.

My understanding currently is as follows. If you have two sources and a single distribution board, with all the loads, then switching over has to be done in an interlocking manner that ensures the grid and the battery-inverter never meets.

Most of us however have our DB split into two, we have grid-loads and backup-loads. You can almost say the backup loads are already islanded.

There must be no way for power to flow from the inverter output back into the "grid" distribution board.

For further understanding, perhaps consider this Schneider inverter + SolarEdge setup from someone in the states. With this setup, the requirement of an interlocking changeover makes complete sense. For our hybrids that has an output, I suspect (and this is my current understanding) that all of this might have been a red herring.