8 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

1) This isn't always possible, or desirable.
2) The way I see it, the interlocking manual change over should come in here on the highlighted part?
3) It would help a great deal, for many people, who haven't done installations yet to know what can be expected and not waste money unnecessarily.

1) So it is for convenience, I get that. Then do it safe as it can go horribly wrong. We have a 2nd DB, the lights on a changeover. Thing is when Eskom comes back on, that DB trips the always on DB and the inverter gets horribly upset - on / off /on / off ... I need my NBEEF to fix the previous sparkies mess.
2) Yes, as CoCT made the sample circuit drawing, or as Admiral pointed out above.
3.1) You are in the hands of the Electrician, one that can do AC / DC. Panel earthing is checked, safety of everything incl battery disconnects and the DB connections and testing of DB / DB's. No CoC if all is not on par. It is an hour of testing alone - costs come in when the DB is not on par.
3.2) Engineering fees should be around R2500 for straight forward testing job BECAUSE the electrician did a perfect job.

7 hours ago, admiral said:

I often see on electrical plans that the geyser / stove etc. are not behind the earth leakage

The Sub DB there is a entire DB with earth leakage all on its own.
In our house the geyser trips its own breaker, as does the stove, house does not go off when drama enters.

What is the limitations w.r.t. cable lengths that restrict installation distances. This is as I have to split my DB and may have to install the CC (EM112) around 9m from the inverter. Would this be an issue ?

2 hours ago, MorneDJ said:

CC (EM112)

I think you might be confusing CT (current transformer, one kind of energy metering device) with the ET112 (ET series has no LCD, EM does) which is a Carlo Gavazzi modbus energy meter. Which is fine... it is confusing enough as it is, just saying because interpreting what you mean is something I have to do to answer the question 🙂

Modbus cabling can go quite a distance. 9 meters should not be a problem. I know many people who extend their modbus cabling. Please please please just do it properly and don't email support if you mess it up 🙂

The other alternative is Zigbee. That makes the meter wireless. But that's a costly option compared to copper wire.

Thanks. I read somewhere here on the forum about some or other piece of equipment having a 1 m limitation. Thought it was the Carlo. What is that equipment?

PS: This thread is full of posts not relevant to the Vicron grid tied design and directly related questions. Going through it is quite an undertaking to look for that "something". Perhaps the rest can be moved to a different thread ?

8 hours ago, MorneDJ said:

PS: This thread is full of posts not relevant to the Victron grid tied design and directly related questions. Going through it is quite an undertaking to look for that "something". Perhaps the rest can be moved to a different thread ?

@Energy is that possible?

Hi Guys.

I can move topics but not individual posts. They can however be deleted. Staying on topic is always the best policy. Let me know what you have in mind.

Sincerely

Jason 

As the thread starter, I vote for removing post that do not tie in with the threads heading. Can do that by reporting posts to be deleted.

Some salient info will be lost, which is sad, but the core thread is being destroyed. But I can make the effort and copy / paste them to another thread, one by one.

Because the moment I lay my hands on lithiums, this thread will continue.

As the thread starter you have the call.

Stay on topic is one of our rules. Let me know if you want to proceed with the flagging.

Sincerely

Jay

On 2019/04/11 at 9:52 PM, The Terrible Triplett said:

I don't think the picture is anything but an ILLUSTRATION of where the Change over switch must go.

You still need the sparkies CoC with the actual diagram submitted, and it looks nothing like Ryno's illustration. 

Here is what we submitted:

Hi @The Terrible Triplett,

If I ask nicely would you send me this diagram in the editable format (is it Proficad?).  It looks like a good start to draw my setup.

Thanks!

1 hour ago, Elbow said:

Hi @The Terrible Triplett,

If I ask nicely would you send me this diagram in the editable format (is it Proficad?).  It looks like a good start to draw my setup.

Thanks!

That looks like QElectrotech.

1 hour ago, CarlT said:

That looks like QElectrotech.

Oooh yay!

$ apt-cache search electrotech
qelectrotech - Electric schematic editor
qelectrotech-data - symbols needed for qelectrotech
qelectrotech-examples - examples files for qelectrotech

It's packaged already!

On 2019/04/22 at 7:36 AM, Elbow said:

Hi @The Terrible Triplett,

If I ask nicely would you send me this diagram in the editable format (is it Proficad?).  It looks like a good start to draw my setup.

Thanks!

I don't have the file sorry. Sparkie did it quick for the forms.

On 2019/02/20 at 11:42 PM, The Terrible Triplett said:

As we build this list, we can add web links towards the end - easier to copy each time we update it.
 

Version 2: (versioning it will help to show which is the latest.)

Equipment:
Victron Multiplus II 48/3000 with MK3-USB cable (for firmware updates)
Victron BlueSolar 150/100MPPT with VE.Direct cable to VenusGX
VenusGX - ESS configured to grid tied
BMV-712 Smart with VE.Direct cable as well as cable for midpoint monitoring
VE.Direct to USB cable fir it one ever has to connect to the MPPT using VictronConnect

Optional:
Carlo Gavazzi with RS485 to USB cable 5m - nice to measure all the in / out of the main DB board.
Temp sense cable for VenusGX  to see the temp of the batts - nice to see the batt temps being recorded.
Battery balancers

Solar Panels - array optimally tilted due north:
Option 1: 8 x 350w Canadian Kumax panels - 2 series and 4 in parallel (To keep well within 150v limits)
Option 2: 10 x 350w Canadian Kumax panels - 2 series and 5 in parallel 
14 pairs of MC4 connectors
20m x 10mm2 Red & Black cable - can use 4 or 6mm, but 10mm is just the least amount of losses and the price difference is not that much
Additional 5m Red & Black cable for odds and sods connections
Panel frame mounts (IBR / Diamond Deck / Tile)

Batteries:
8 x Trojan J200RE's
Optional: Watering kit for the Trojan's. In their lifetime, the kit is a awesome time saver.

Wires needed - extra lugs as spares - assume 20m distance:
From inverter to batteries: 5m x 50mm2 red & black cable with 10 x 50mm/10mm lugs to crimp on
From MPPT to inverter: 2m x 25mm2 red & black with 8 x 25mm/10mm lugs to crimp on
Between batts: 30cm x 50mm2 black cable with 18 x 50mm/10mm lugs
22m Earthing wire: From panel frames to a earthing rod and inverter to DB board
Glands, Din Rail?

String Combiner Box:
1 x DB box
3 x NoArk 63A 1000VDC 6ka double pole breaker to break all 6 wires - or 2 x 4 pole NoArks.
6 x PV Fuse Holder with LED light - on all 6 wires
10 x 20amp fuses
1 x Citel Surge Protection DC/PV Type 2 1000VDC (DS50PVS-1000)

Fuse Box 1 - 25mm2 cable:
1 x 125amp fuse and fuse holder
2 x 125amp fuses

Fuse Box 2 - 50mm2 cable:
1 x 250amp fuse and fuse holder
2 x 250amp fuses

Ac_Out1 Always On DB Board:
Double pole breaker to switch DB off.
Earthleakage
Breakers for circuits

Tools:
1) Crimping tool - invest in the R500 - R800 jobbies to be set free
2) MC4 crimper to crimper
3) Multimeter to be able to test the volts
Optional: DC clip-on ammeter 

Hi Guys,

I am basing my solar install on the recommendations above, and plan to purchase as per the system above except i am using phylontech 2.4kw batteries. I also just wanted to ask does anybody see a problem with using Artsolar 350w panels (locally made) instead of the canadian panels? 

 

 

1 hour ago, Kilowatt said:

Hi Guys,

I am basing my solar install on the recommendations above, and plan to purchase as per the system above except i am using phylontech 2.4kw batteries. I also just wanted to ask does anybody see a problem with using Artsolar 350w panels (locally made) instead of the canadian panels? 

Not really, other than another local factory which was in Cape Town closed down. 

2 hours ago, Kilowatt said:

... does anybody see a problem with using Artsolar 350w panels (locally made) instead of the canadian panels? 

 

 

No problem. Arsolar is in Dbn, no Cpt office as yet.

1 hour ago, SilverNodashi said:

does anybody see a problem with using Artsolar 350w panels (locally made) instead of the canadian panels? 

I have personally ordered 10 for my current project .

3 hours ago, Kilowatt said:

Hi Guys,

I am basing my solar install on the recommendations above, and plan to purchase as per the system above except i am using phylontech 2.4kw batteries. I also just wanted to ask does anybody see a problem with using Artsolar 350w panels (locally made) instead of the canadian panels? 

 

 

@phil.g00 gave them a thumbs up.

I personally really considered them but he 350W VOC was not a good fit with my MPPT.

54 minutes ago, VisN said:

@phil.g00 gave them a thumbs up.

I personally really considered them but he 350W VOC was not a good fit with my MPPT.

Disclosure: I used the 330W, the 350W is quite recent and I haven't seen the 350W up close and personal.

No complaints about quality, and no reason to think there would be with 350W.

Something to consider the 280W (60 cell)  is the same power/m2 ratio as the 330W (72 cell).

It is is also slightly cheaper/watt.

Given that the voltage capabilities of charge controllers are a multiple of 50V ( namely 150V and 250V for Victron  respectively).

But whereas if your in an inland cold area and a 72 cell panel may have a Voc of just over 50V, and therefore you have to back off an entire panel in the string.

So for example, a 150V CC will allow a 2x 330W = 660Watts/string.

Similarly, a 250V CC will allow 4 x 330W = 1320 Watts/string

For the same temperature, a string of 60 cell panels may be just under the CC's voltage threshold.

And allow 3x 280W =740W/string ( 150V CC)  12 % more power per string

And allow 6 x 280W = 1680W/string (250V CC) 27% more power per string.

There is only a couple of degrees C in it, but the 60 cell panels might give you the edge to not risk your CC.

It depends how you want to combine your strings but if you want to do it at ground level less strings would be quite a saving in copper.

60 cell panels will need around 20% more mounts compared to 72 cell panels, but I think that's more than offset.

Of course, available roof space/shape area trumps all this reasoning.

 

 

Thanks for your input guys. 

14 hours ago, phil.g00 said:

Disclosure: I used the 330W, the 350W is quite recent and I haven't seen the 350W up close and personal.

No complaints about quality, and no reason to think there would be with 350W.

Something to consider the 280W (60 cell)  is the same power/m2 ratio as the 330W (72 cell).

It is is also slightly cheaper/watt.

Given that the voltage capabilities of charge controllers are a multiple of 50V ( namely 150V and 250V for Victron  respectively).

But whereas if your in an inland cold area and a 72 cell panel may have a Voc of just over 50V, and therefore you have to back off an entire panel in the string.

So for example, a 150V CC will allow a 2x 330W = 660Watts/string.

Similarly, a 250V CC will allow 4 x 330W = 1320 Watts/string

For the same temperature, a string of 60 cell panels may be just under the CC's voltage threshold.

And allow 3x 280W =740W/string ( 150V CC)  12 % more power per string

And allow 6 x 280W = 1680W/string (250V CC) 27% more power per string.

There is only a couple of degrees C in it, but the 60 cell panels might give you the edge to not risk your CC.

It depends how you want to combine your strings but if you want to do it at ground level less strings would be quite a saving in copper.

60 cell panels will need around 20% more mounts compared to 72 cell panels, but I think that's more than offset.

Of course, available roof space/shape area trumps all this reasoning.

 

 

Sorry, this may be a noobish question, and possibly the wrong place, so apologies.

Just some clarity on the 2x3 vs 3x3 configs please. If one has 2x6 panels, vs 3x4 panels, that turns out to the same wattage correct? So other than keeping an eye on the VOC, what makes the 3x setup better than the 2x ? Is it just the amount of cabling needed that makes it more desirable?

8 minutes ago, Minerva10210 said:

same wattage

Correct.

8 minutes ago, Minerva10210 said:

So other than keeping an eye on the VOC, what makes the 3x setup better than the 2x ? Is it just the amount of cabling needed that makes it more desirable?

Pretty much cabling. Thinner, and less of it. Also depending on where you live each array might require its own surge arrestor. Each array also needs its own DC switching, fuses, and so forth, so more strings means more of everything , not just cable 🙂

12 minutes ago, Minerva10210 said:

what makes the 3x setup better than the 2x ?

What @plonkstersaid holds true in terms  of costs.

But, nothings ever black or white,  it should be weighed off against performance.

For example, say there is fixed object shading of a panel ( say by an chimney) that knocks out a string's production for a portion of a day.

It may just be prudent to have 2/3 production from 3 strings instead of half production from 2.

 

How I view it: KISS
1) Your inverter can do say 2.4kw - don't forget that.
2) So get 3kw array or 3.2kw - point is, keep it within reasonableness of the margins the inverter can provide keeping in mind winter is coming.
3) Now get that array installed with the least amount of panels.
4) Only 2 rules:
Never exceed the max Volts the controller can handle.
Never exceed the max Amps the controller can handle.

OBVIOUSLY one can make a fine study of it all and work it all out into the finest details, measuring the overall losses ... nothing wrong with that.

Or one can think that the thing is, for most of us, the losses from the panels being too hot, clouds, smog / dust, all the connections over the system, fuses / cabling, inverter / MPPT efficiencies, chimney, leaves/ tree  etc etc etc brings the overall efficiency to about wot, 85% (?) over the entire system. So we nitpick X Y or Z ... does it bring it close to 100%, even 90%?

So I say, don't fret, just gooi (add) another panel and forget about it.

Because THE most urgent answer we need to seek: CAN we use ALL the power the panels can generate ALl the time?

That ladies and gents, THAT is the most crucial point to ponder on for that will only be a reality if we can grid tie and feed it all back and get PAID for it.
THEN it gets really interesting to ensure maximum efficiency to the n'th degree for then it is rands and cents we stand to lose.
 

Edited April 25, 20197 yr by Guest

4 minutes ago, phil.g00 said:

But, nothings ever black or white,  it should be weighed off against performance.

Oh of course! I thought "all other things being equal"  was sort of implied 🙂

As a perfect example of cost and how that works... how you sometimes opt for the higher cost in favour of performance or simplicity or whatever: so my car was in for some repairs, it needed a new Alternator. First work that had to be done in 11 years (which is why I drive Toyota). And it cost me about as much as an Axpert to have it fixed.

(So that's like an official monetary unit now... multiples of an Axpert). 🙂

I could have saved a third-of-an-Axpert on the job, but then I'd likely have to redo the job in two years. So I opted to spend more and put in a new alternator.