30 000 BTU is about 8kW.

40 minutes ago, profa said:

... is my vice.

Profa. You have loads you want to save money and you may over spend or not.

An idea, grow the system bit for bit.

Say you start with a 3kva and a 250/100 with 10 x 350w panels and a 3kw Pylon bank.
Now walk the talk, feel how it feels and use the data to measure and adjust, see what you are saving.
Say it saves you 20-30% on your bill. You decide you need more.
Double the inverter by adding a 2nd 3kva in parallel with the first one, add another 5 x 350w panels to 5.2kw panels, same bank.
Rinse repeat ... 
Add a 3rd 3kva in parallel with the first two, add another 5 x 350w panels up to 7kw, add another 3kw Pylontech bank.

At any time you can stop, or grow, and you do it with facts and first hand experience.

Just a thought.

Quote

As per your figures above his max saving will be R1200 (10kWh per day per geyser)

That would be a minimum saving as solar geysers are more efficient that that, but you wouldn't pay for the extra, that would be a free benefit. Personally I would install a R5000 geyser, so R10000 for the two.

You will need two R20000k geyserwise systems to be equivalent so R40000k in total, and the amount of heat you get from the PV would still be less. How many solar panels are you figuring on?

16 hours ago, DeepBass9 said:

30 000 BTU is about 8kW.

One of the main reasons for the 15kva inverter. But I dont think mine uses 8kw. I wouldve had a much higher electricity bill I think. I think about half that. 

15 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Profa. You have loads you want to save money and you may over spend or not.

An idea, grow the system bit for bit.

Say you start with a 3kva and a 250/100 with 10 x 350w panels and a 3kw Pylon bank.
Now walk the talk, feel how it feels and use the data to measure and adjust, see what you are saving.
Say it saves you 20-30% on your bill. You decide you need more.
Double the inverter by adding a 2nd 3kva in parallel with the first one, add another 5 x 350w panels to 5.2kw panels, same bank.
Rinse repeat ... 
Add a 3rd 3kva in parallel with the first two, add another 5 x 350w panels up to 7kw, add another 3kw Pylontech bank.

At any time you can stop, or grow, and you do it with facts and first hand experience.

Just a thought.

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate it, and it does make sense. My problem is however space for all the inverters and that I want to buy the inverter once and just add panels and batteries as I think its easier than adding more and more inverters. 

58 minutes ago, profa said:

Thanks for the advice

my 2 cents. If you are looking only at the ROI it makes no sense to spend so much money. If it is your hobby and/or you are concerned about the environment this is a different story and probably the reason most of us here on the site have PV systems. After 2 years of experience with a PV hybrid system and solar geysers (and only looking at the cost benefit) my advice would be to install a PV grid tied system without batteries and 2 solar geysers. 

If the law in your city allows it I would size the PV system to cover on average about 80% of your daily consumption. For load shedding either get a cheap UPS for the very few essential loads you can not live without for 2 hours or invest in a quiet generator. 

The choice of solar geysers depends on your pressure requirement in the hot water system. In my case I needed I a high pressure system. But even a high pressure system will give you an acceptable ROI.  

On 2019/08/05 at 2:08 PM, DeepBass9 said:

Step 1 is to replace your geysers with solar geysers. That is an easy win, and you should save 30-40% of your power bill.

Or if the sun doesn't fall in the right places, heat pumps. I have the latter, and it is way cheaper than running a conventional geyser. 

Previously I had a solar geyser. The pro is that it heats water even when the power is off. The con is that every now and then the water would get very hot, pressure would build up and a relief valve would pop and you'd have lots of water running down the roof (this problem may have been addressed in the last few years).

Also get geyser blankets and clad your piping so as to retain heat.

On 2019/08/08 at 2:39 PM, Bobster said:

Or if the sun doesn't fall in the right places, heat pumps. I have the latter, and it is way cheaper than running a conventional geyser. 

Previously I had a solar geyser. The pro is that it heats water even when the power is off. The con is that every now and then the water would get very hot, pressure would build up and a relief valve would pop and you'd have lots of water running down the roof (this problem may have been addressed in the last few years).

Also get geyser blankets and clad your piping so as to retain heat.

Colleague has the water running down the roof problem. His solution is that twice a year he has to get on the roof and use shadenet to cover a portion of his tubes so the water doesnt get too hot. In winter he has less covered than in summer. 

51 minutes ago, profa said:

Colleague has the water running down the roof problem. His solution is that twice a year he has to get on the roof and use shadenet to cover a portion of his tubes so the water doesnt get too hot. In winter he has less covered than in summer. 

That's quite a neat solution. The other thing I remember about that geyser was that the water could get VERY hot in the summer.

37 minutes ago, Bobster said:

That's quite a neat solution. The other thing I remember about that geyser was that the water could get VERY hot in the summer.

Yip. Literally close to boiling as it easily burns the skin. 

So it seems solar isnt in my future. Received two quotes from local suppliers in Bloem. R377k including some installation costs from one and R281k from another excluding installation. Compared to the quote I got from a JHB company for the equipment of R224k I can see that we in Bloem are just being ripped off when it comes to solar. 

Would love to use the JHB supplier, but not willing to take the risks of purchasing such expensive equipment from a supplier so far away. Also not willing to be ripped off from the local suppliers. So I suppose a solar geyser it is then to save on electricity. At least that I can get sourced and installed from local suppliers/plumbers in Bloem for the same prices as other cities. 

Maybe look at starting smaller and being able to add on later. For about 150k (in Jhb) I have a grid tied system that has reduced my usage to less than one unit a day, and could run off grid on days when we don't use the oven or lots of appliances. I have power to spare most afternoons and could probably double up on batteries when I have the dosh. In the meantime I have a massively reduced bill,  a smaller carbon footprint and much improved ability to survive an outage.  When the power goes down, my fridges and deep freeze are going to be backed up, so we have less chance of having to replace spoiled food.

When I pulled the trigger on the system I figured a 9 year payback, but since COJ decided to not only pass on the entire Eskom increase but to add to that, I figure payback time has got closer.

 

2 minutes ago, Bobster said:

Maybe look at starting smaller and being able to add on later. For about 150k (in Jhb) I have a grid tied system that has reduced my usage to less than one unit a day, and could run off grid on days when we don't use the oven or lots of appliances. I have power to spare most afternoons and could probably double up on batteries when I have the dosh. In the meantime I have a massively reduced bill,  a smaller carbon footprint and much improved ability to survive an outage.  When the power goes down, my fridges and deep freeze are going to be backed up, so we have less chance of having to replace spoiled food.

When I pulled the trigger on the system I figured a 9 year payback, but since COJ decided to not only pass on the entire Eskom increase but to add to that, I figure payback time has got closer.

 

I hear you. I really do and agree 100% with what you are saying. But going smaller wont negate the fact that I will still ripped off by Bloemfontein suppliers. I will be charged R200k for a R100k system. 

Just now, Pietpower said:

Is that comparing apples with apples.  In other words have they all quoted on the same amount of panels, batteries and the same inverter size and brand?

Yes sir. Same stuff to the best I can get them to be transparent as one doesnt list the specific equipment being supplied merely that it is a "victron inverter" (the "15kva" is the heading of the quote so I assume its a 15kva victron inverter) and that it has 20kw of battery storage and 6.9kwp of sun panels. The 2nd company did provide specifics on what equipment they were supplying but doesnt put prices next to each item. Just the total at the end. 

2 hours ago, profa said:

Would love to use the JHB supplier, but not willing to take the risks of purchasing such expensive equipment from a supplier so far away.

Risk will remain risk, doesn't matter where you buy from, you can buy from a Bloem supplier that's been around for 20 years, but tomorrow something happens to him or his company and you are left on your own. Luckely with higher end equipment like Victron,  the main supplier will stand in even if the retail supplier or installer left the country. 

Profa, your JHB supplier is actually way further up North and Ill put my neck out here, I have supplied many clients all over the country, and haven't let any of them down ever. 

I do however hope you find a working solution and truly hope you wont get ripped off in the process. 

I would start smaller but allow myself to scale, and also just find a reliable installer that is willing to travel a little, you would probably need to provide accomodation or be willing to pay for it if the job goes over a day which it probably will.

Edited August 12, 20196 yr by Dex_

18 hours ago, profa said:

I hear you. I really do and agree 100% with what you are saying. But going smaller wont negate the fact that I will still ripped off by Bloemfontein suppliers. I will be charged R200k for a R100k system. 

Then cast a wider net. The guys who did my installation mostly operate in Gauteng, but will add on travel costs for installations further afield. There must be other companies operating on a similar basis. It costs little to ask around.

Just now, Bobster said:

Then cast a wider net. The guys who did my installation mostly operate in Gauteng, but will add on travel costs for installations further afield. There must be other companies operating on a similar basis. It costs little to ask around.

Where you my lose out is on after sales service. They can monitor the system remotely, but what if they want to tweak some settings? Or if something goes wrong soon after installation.

30 minutes ago, Bobster said:

but what if they want to tweak some settings?

With the equipment Profa is interested in, all the settings can be tweaked remotely. Even remote updates are done as they become available and constant monitoring is possible. 

Just recently, I was faced with a problem on a clients site with one of two MPPT's, one switched on early morning while the second only came on way later. I logged a support ticket and Victron logged in on the system and did their checks. The next day they asked me to go check the connection marked on this picture, they can see its open till a certain time and then closes. I went and checked and found 1 screw loose. Tighten it and problem gone till today. 

 

Adding onto this chat.

You can also get a supplier to update all firmware and pre-configure the setup before it is shipped.

For me it is quite simple. A sparkie comes around and:
1) First do a test or two like say for example the tests CoCT wants done. Saves a lot of frustration AND COSTS if anything is found wrong.
2) Then the parts arrive, sparkie mounts it all and connects the AC side as he needs to give a CoC if it involved anything DB board related.
3) Connecting the batteries, also to be done by the right sparkie, to the MPPT is like falling off a horse easy - I know, fell off 6 times, was kicked, bitten and my foot stepped on. So I know.
4) Mounting the panels. Get a local guy to do that.

One can get all the parts required for the entire install delivered. As in everything. 

Sparkies have blerrie good ideas how to connect stuff and get parts.

Edited August 13, 20196 yr by Guest

21 hours ago, Jaco de Jongh said:

With the equipment Profa is interested in, all the settings can be tweaked remotely. Even remote updates are done as they become available and constant monitoring is possible. 

Just recently, I was faced with a problem on a clients site with one of two MPPT's, one switched on early morning while the second only came on way later. I logged a support ticket and Victron logged in on the system and did their checks. The next day they asked me to go check the connection marked on this picture, they can see its open till a certain time and then closes. I went and checked and found 1 screw loose. Tighten it and problem gone till today. 

Thanks for that. Is this possible with Goodwe inverters? If so, that explains a comment my installer made to me recently.

3 minutes ago, Bobster said:

Is this possible with Goodwe inverters?

I am not sure, I think there is some settings available from the portal side, but to be honest, I was disappointed when I saw how little setting were available on the Goodwe that could be tweaked. Furthermore I dont think remote support and faultfinding can be done as with Victron for example, and if it is at all possible, its not common knowledge.    

Guys your recommendation on these Solar Geyser Panels from https://www.anacsolar.com/copy-2-of-standalone

R7000 ext Vat installation should be around R4000, so around R12000 to install the system.

 

 

 

 

I had a system like that in my previous home. Works very well for a solar geyser for 4 people with a 150L tank. In summer the temp could go to 80deg, while in winter it was more around the 50 deg avg.
Normal solar stuff. If someone showered in the evening the water is cold in the morning, so your element needs to heat up the water.
We saved about 40% of the electricity bill with this upgrade compared to the normal geyser.

The GeyserWise is a great controller.

If you take the slightly more expensive option that has the 12V pump with a solar panel for circulation it is worth it with the loadshedding we do have.

Now I have a heat pump. Saving are the same but no more cold water in the mornings  

Hi guys, can I install a grid-tie inverter without exporting power only importing power. I just want the grid power and solar to be blended. I know hybrid is the way to go but they so expensive. 

On 2020/08/07 at 10:36 AM, Louisvdw said:

I had a system like that in my previous home. Works very well for a solar geyser for 4 people with a 150L tank. In summer the temp could go to 80deg, while in winter it was more around the 50 deg avg.
Normal solar stuff. If someone showered in the evening the water is cold in the morning, so your element needs to heat up the water.
We saved about 40% of the electricity bill with this upgrade compared to the normal geyser.

The GeyserWise is a great controller.

If you take the slightly more expensive option that has the 12V pump with a solar panel for circulation it is worth it with the loadshedding we do have.

Now I have a heat pump. Saving are the same but no more cold water in the mornings  

Is your heat pump ac or dc how much power does it draw at peak.