Good day guys

I want to get your opinion on warranty claim that has been revoked.

I had an 3KVA Axpert inverter running since 2015 without any problems.This inverter are still working today.

Earlier in March this year I wanted to  add solar panels to the system and I had to upgrade the inverter. So i purchased an 3KVA inverter with a bigger charge controller that can handel a larger solar array. The internal infrastructure remained the same.

 

Last week i came home to find the inverter dead and only having a ticking noise. The battery fuse was also blown. There were no error messages on the system before hand. This is the same fuse installed since 2015.

 

I took the unit in to the supplier where I have purchased the unit from and I received the following mail today. The massage are complete with only names not copied over.

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"After considering the installation information provided we have decided to void the warranty on the 3kVA inverter.

The AC input and output breakers are to large to provide any protection on the inverter.

The DC fuses on the solar panels are to large to provide protection to the inverter from the PV side.

The battery breaker/fuse are to small and will result in frequent trips causing damage to the inverter.

I can give you the contact information of a person that do repairs on inverters. He might be able to assist you with the repair."

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 So my system information they have is as follow. 

I have 2 x 12V 210AH battery s to give me the 24V with a 100A fuse. This is the first fuse used from the start since 2015. Never had any trips at all my consumption on the inverter capability  is 30-40% on average.  

The inverter AC in is on a 30A beaker with a 30A breaker on the output. Manual recommends 32A for a 3KVA system.( I have this in black and white on the manual)

I have a 30A DC fuse one the solar side and each string are also individually fused with a VOC of 80V with all the panels combined.The unit are rated at VOC of 30-115V

I had no errors or any warning signs of any problems prior to inverter going faulty.

I did do a lot of research before implementing the system and went with numerous commendation.

 

If I have any of my parameter incorrect of example incorrect fusing or breakers as suggested fine I can buy another inverter or get this one repaired. And correct what needs to be corrected.

But from the mail I received I have a feeling they did not even had a look at the unit.

Firstly they supplied the unit but they did not even offer or quote to repair the unit or state what has been damage on the unit. They immediately want to refer me to a third party to get the unit repaired that way.

There is also not corrections recommended.  

 

I just want to get your opinion then I can decide on the next step from there.

Your input would be greatly predicated

Many thanks

Riaan

Can you post the sticker from the inverter to see the exact parameters and what batteries were you using with it?

Thanks for the quick reply Power User

Sorry the inverter is still with the supplier.

It is a Axpert type inverter 3KVA 24V Hibrid inverter with a 60A MPPT charge controller 1500W

MPP range of 30V - 115V

 

The battery s are Duratec deep cycle Gel battery's

DG220-12 12V@220AH/10HR x2 in series for 24V 220A

Float use 13.6-13.8v

Cycle Use 14.5-14.9

Inrush Current less 66A

if I recall the max charge current was set to 20A

 

The same setup minus the solar was used with a AXpert 3KVA 24V 600W MPPT  

 

Please let me know if you need any other specific information. I don't see this model on the suppliers site anymore.

 

many thanks

 

 

Sounds like a TheSunPays inverter?

We need to see the exact specs of the inverter, in order to tell, if the fuses were wrong size or not. Do you know the exact model number of it?

And what brand/model panels do you have and how are the strings arranged? 

I'm guessing the main board is broken, and based on that mainly they are rejecting the claim. Their reasoning are not sufficient in my opinion, but their rejection might still be valid. The main question is whether you have adequate surge protection and earthing.

2 hours ago, 87 Dream said:

This is where going smaller can sometimes not be so wise. So at 24V & 3000W output this machine is capable of 125Amps & it's even high for surge loads & that is a lot of amps so the Cable size needs to be appropriately thick. I have seen a similar machine with only 25mm DC battery cables. Minimum for this is 35mm at the very least & of course the DC breaker or fuse needs to be more than 100A. Needs to be matched with the data sheet on the side of the inverter.

So I wrote a thread on Dodgey CoCs and the like. This is where now that CoC needs to be water tight. So that you can claim from a warranty. Like now in this unfortunate event they just throw the ball back in your court. They have every right to deny your warranty claim based on incorrectly specified equipment used. 

Beware the Dodgey CoC...

87

 

Am I correct in saying that the inverter max DC amp charge rating is what governs the size of the battery-Inverter cable? The pylontech 25mm2 cable is rated to 125A (is this correct?) so if the inverter can only draw 100A max the cable should be good irrespective of the max A that can be provided by the batteries?

27 minutes ago, FixAMess said:

Am I correct in saying that the inverter max DC amp charge rating is what governs the size of the battery-Inverter cable?

As far as I know, that is incorrect! The inverter max discharge current rating should be used for the the fuses and cable. The discharge rating is often higher than the charge rating. However, if the max rating is installed correctly according to the inverter but at the same time, the batteries cannot match that and there is no BMS to protect them, then you still have the risk of damaging the batteries, when the inverter tries to pull more than they can handle.

5 minutes ago, 87 Dream said:

Here is a classic case in point: how do we specify the cable thickness for this inverter? Snap shot of the product info taken off the side. Also notice the Amperage value & see that it is higher than a simple 3000W÷24V & why is it higher? 

87

The AMPs on the DC should be specified to allow a typical 1m or 5m overpower, which is supported my most inverters. In this case, the fuse should be 142A x 1.25 = 159.04A.

160A fuse.

Same specification for the cable thickness but usually I like to overspec the cables by at least one size higher.

Edited October 28, 20214 yr by PowerUser

When my inverter blew in December last year, the supplier never questioned my installation, the guys in china also never questioned my installation. They just asked for the fault information. It looks like in this case, the supplier is trying to find a reason not to exchange the inverter or at least fix it. FYI, CoC will not help with warranty claim, it might help with insurance claim but not warranty. Name and shame the supplier so that people can be aware of who they are dealing with ☹️

54 minutes ago, 87 Dream said:

@FixAMess, @PowerUseris spot on with his answer. BMSs usually have a higher discharge value than a charge value. Inverters are the same. Remember the higher of these two numbers is the winner to specify the wire thickness because these wires will conduct both the low charge & when the inverter draws DC amps this higher value too.

I have a table which I use to calculate these values I will post it on here. Need to find it then revert.

87

 

On the Goodwe its max 100A, charge/discharge, I've seen a max of 92A discharge, maybe 70A max charge. This makes we wonder if the Pylontech supplied battery cable is up to scratch when using 87 Dream cable chart as a reference..

Edited October 28, 20214 yr by FixAMess

Thanks for the feedback guys and for the valuable information.

Sorry I did not reply sooner just a crazy day at work.

Unfortunate a 5 kVA System is a bit over kill based on my use case especially for the battery requirement and the panels was bought a couple of years ago.But only manage to get them commissioned earlier this year.

I do not have the system back with me yet but based on the manual the 3KVA 24V Typical Amperage is 100A

If a battery is 100AH the wire size are 1*4AWG - 22mm SQ

If a battery is 200AH the wire size are 2*8AWG - 14mm SQ

This is for the Power MPS 3KVA 60A the Sun Pays Inverter.

So that aspect of the specks looks the same as the Axpert 3KVA inverter with the same rating 3000VA/2400W

Input 24V DC 100A as per label.

 

Regarding the solar panels

.

PSS SP-50P

PMAx 50W

Vmp 17.4V

Imp 2.87A

Voc 21.6V

ISC 3.16

I have 24 panels if i recall it is in a 2S 12P configuration based on recommendation. The VOC are around 80V

i have a 30A DC for fuse for the PV on the inverter side. With additional fuses at the panel/combiner side. My panels are on a corrugated car port and that structure and the panels are both earthed. The cabling from the combiner and panels are about 20M away from the inverter. The fuses on the combiner side for each string if i recall correctly is 15 or 20A  

I will see if I can get the inverter back tomorrow and will then send the specs through, I don't know if it is worth repairing the unit and if it is more cost defective

to purchase a new unit.

Thanks for the great info and assistance so far.

 

 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, 87 Dream said:

Im afraid in this POPI act world we currently live in, a person might want to think again before such an action is made. 

I totally share your sentiment though. Complete Bulldust 😑

87

POPI act doesn't protect businesses from been named, shamed or praised. Many websites around the world do this, https://www.hellopeter.com is one.

It's quite normal to voice your dissatisfaction if you feel you've been done in, just don't defame anyone or tell lies. 👍

 

11 hours ago, riaanhar said:

Thanks for the feedback guys and for the valuable information.

Sorry I did not reply sooner just a crazy day at work.

Unfortunate a 5 kVA System is a bit over kill based on my use case especially for the battery requirement and the panels was bought a couple of years ago.But only manage to get them commissioned earlier this year.

I do not have the system back with me yet but based on the manual the 3KVA 24V Typical Amperage is 100A

If a battery is 100AH the wire size are 1*4AWG - 22mm SQ

If a battery is 200AH the wire size are 2*8AWG - 14mm SQ

This is for the Power MPS 3KVA 60A the Sun Pays Inverter.

So that aspect of the specks looks the same as the Axpert 3KVA inverter with the same rating 3000VA/2400W

Input 24V DC 100A as per label.

 

Regarding the solar panels

.

PSS SP-50P

PMAx 50W

Vmp 17.4V

Imp 2.87A

Voc 21.6V

ISC 3.16

I have 24 panels if i recall it is in a 2S 12P configuration based on recommendation. The VOC are around 80V

i have a 30A DC for fuse for the PV on the inverter side. With additional fuses at the panel/combiner side. My panels are on a corrugated car port and that structure and the panels are both earthed. The cabling from the combiner and panels are about 20M away from the inverter. The fuses on the combiner side for each string if i recall correctly is 15 or 20A  

I will see if I can get the inverter back tomorrow and will then send the specs through, I don't know if it is worth repairing the unit and if it is more cost defective

to purchase a new unit.

Thanks for the great info and assistance so far.

 

 

 

 

 

Have you tried contacting the manufacturer directly and see if they can't help? Some times the suppliers are just lazy to deal with warranty issues and just rejects the claim instead of letting the manufacturer decide if the claim is valid or not. If your inverter is within the warranty period and you still have your proof of purchase, contact the manufacturer and explain the problem/fault and ask for support. If they come to the same conclusion as their supplier, buy a new inverter and this time get a Growatt SPF3000TL, then you will have peace of mind knowing that when things goes south, your warranty will be honored 

I fetched the unit today. notice the warranty sticker still intact. I don't know how you can assess a unit without opening it.

But just to confirm the rating is 24V 100A

 

Anyway I have purchased another inverter already with a bigger charge controller and solar capacity so I have more options to expand later on if required.

Interestingly the new inverter states 24V 125A as DC input but the manual have the same specification for the battery cable as the faulty inverter.The new units manual are completely different from the other manual so it is not a generic manual. 

Model        Typical Amperage         Battery Capability            Wire Size

3KVA          125A                              100AH                                4 AWG

                                                          200AH                               8 AWG

Just to confirm on the PV side  the fuses on the combiner are 10A on each string with a 30A fuse on the inverter side.

Based on the suggested reasons for voiding the warranty should I change fuses or breakers and to what sizes for the new inverter. My problem is that to everyone I speak to gives me different size suggestions.

For example both inverter manuals suggest 30A breakers for the AC in and out of the inverter.The other suggestions was  20A and 25A breakers for AC in and out respectively. 

On the PV side 15A per sting was the size the supplier was looking for . What should the combined rating be. Without knowing the panned size or configuration. 

On the battery side 160A fuse for a 125A rated input based on the calculation mentioned in a previous post.  

Thanks for the inverter suggestion but the 48v solutions are just over kill for my situation.I am the only user of the inverter so replacing 4 batteries every couple of years is quite costly.

For me in my situation it is not about the financial aspect of it. It is a matter of principle. Even if my infrastructure were way off and the warranty void is legit.Why pass the buck. They supplied the unit and should be able to repair the unit even if they quote and charge for the repair.

Thanks I appreciate the input thus far.    

Take everyone’s opinion as a consideration as well but ask the supplier of the new inverter what fuse sizes they recommend. If you have an issue in future, you will have to deal with them. 
 

And in any case, I think, the old inverter’s supplier was just looking for excuses to reject the warranty. 

5 hours ago, riaanhar said:

notice the warranty sticker still intact. I don't know how you can assess a unit without opening it.

Agreed.

5 hours ago, riaanhar said:

But just to confirm the rating is 24V 100A

I also note that 24 V @ 100 A is only just enough to supply 2400 W output with ZERO losses, which is not realistic.

Also, your photo shows that it has the classic "I am a clone" sticker. A real manufacturer would not provide a restart after overload facility that blows up the unit. It happens because the clone maker has not perfectly copied the hardware, but has copied the firmware. See Do I Own a Clone?

5 hours ago, riaanhar said:

Anyway I have purchased another inverter

Good idea, though you should have bee able to have the original replaced or repaired under warranty. It highlights that clone manufacturers often don't support their product, and in some cases don't even know how it works.

On 2021/10/30 at 9:58 PM, PowerUser said:

And in any case, I think, the old inverter’s supplier was just looking for excuses to reject the warranty. 

Definitely, and the fact that they sold you a clone/fake tells you a lot.  They didn't open it because they already know there is no point.

So far I've bought all my units from "Full Circle Solar".  Not sure how they deal with warranty because I haven't needed to return any.  But at least the units I got weren't fakes and they were fairly decently priced.

IMO we should have a list of resellers on the site that sell fake/clones and don't support warranties with links to threads like yours.

Consider buying from Takealot in the future, they will at least provide a little bit extra protection. (Because they can act essentially as a middle man between you and these unscrupulous resellers)

Edited November 1, 20214 yr by Gnome