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Eskom's Got it right again!


Mike

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When do businesses operate? Daytime!

If I was Makro or Vodacom or a hospital administrator, I would fill the property with solar panels.

Businesses are perfect for grid tie with battery backup. Or, as I did, off-grid with Eskom as backup and batteries as backup to solar and Eskom.

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44 minutes ago, DeepBass9 said:

Although someone should tell makro that skylights in their roofs would be much cheaper than the lights they use.

Good point ... why have they not done it yet ... why is it that all these easy to do ideas just never gets implemented!?

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5 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Good point ... why have they not done it yet ... why is it that all these easy to do ideas just never gets implemented!?

They are busy already. Makro put up some solar carports, probably cause they ran out of roofspace. Life hospital in Fourways did as well.

Do you know what a system like that would cost? Do so calcs on 10Mw worth of panels, 3 phase inverters and battery bank. Add another 3-5bar to that price for cabling and structures. Another million for labor, compliance, etc.

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Just now, SilverNodashi said:

They are busy already. Makro put up some solar carports, probably cause they ran out of roofspace. Life hospital in Fourways did as well.

Do you know what a system like that would cost? Do so calcs on 10Mw worth of panels, 3 phase inverters and battery bank. Add another 3-5bar to that price for cabling and structures. Another million for labor, compliance, etc.

Was referring to:

5 hours ago, DeepBass9 said:

Big roof surfaces as well... Although someone should tell makro that skylights in their roofs would be much cheaper than the lights they use.

For solar would cost a pretty penny, but the light requirements can be reduced as DeepBass said.

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1 minute ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Was referring to:

For solar would cost a pretty penny, but the light requirements can be reduced as DeepBass said.

Too some degree. We did a Nike store recently and their LED lights still use 12Kw energy. During the day! Stores, factories, hospitals, etc are huge and need a lot of light. LED is much better than halogen but  still cost a small fortune to change.

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57 minutes ago, SilverNodashi said:

Too some degree. We did a Nike store recently and their LED lights still use 12Kw energy. During the day! Stores, factories, hospitals, etc are huge and need a lot of light. LED is much better than halogen but  still cost a small fortune to change.

They SHOULD build them with more windows and skylights. In hospitals it helps with recovery and kills germs too.

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2 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

They SHOULD build them with more windows and skylights. In hospitals it helps with recovery and kills germs too.

It doesn't work inside a mall. And many malls don't allow solar panels or generators either, so imagine their battery bank, just for 4 hours loadshed backup.

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12 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

It doesn't work inside a mall. And many malls don't allow solar panels or generators either, so imagine their battery bank, just for 4 hours loadshed backup.

Yes it does, but obviously not in the lower floors like with malls as Menlo Park or other multiple floor malls.

But Tygervalley, Century City and malls that are 1 or 2 stories or trade stores like Makro that are single level stores, all of them can be done if the architect and owner wants.

And  the parking lots, why all malls are not installing solar parking lots, and sell the power back to Eskom or local suburb ... I mean, it is a place of trading. (rofl) 

Silver, if mall owners and Eskom wanted to, every single one would have done it already, as would have the mines and other large factories. Actually, all new buildings would probably be built different to utilize the sunlight as best they can.

It is a simple case of: Is there a will?

But as YOU pointed out, Solar is a expensive capital outlay and as I say, Eskom is not wanting to come and play, so the will / urgency / profit is not there.

But if I was pressi ... :D

 

Once heard of a factory that got robbed in PE. They had these huge cables rolls in the factory, the ones on those large wooden tolls. Factory had a very high ceiling. Monday one was gone, no forced entry or exit, alarm still on. Turns out the thieves somehow got that huge thing out via the roof, and then put the sheets back ... no-one knew how, but the evidence was there on the roof sheet and the marks on the ground where the toll was loaded onto  a truck.

 

My point, if you want something really bad, you will find a way to get it, skylights or no skylights, mall allowing it or not, Eskom wanting it or not.

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13 hours ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Yes it does, but obviously not in the lower floors like with malls as Menlo Park or other multiple floor malls.

But Tygervalley, Century City and malls that are 1 or 2 stories or trade stores like Makro that are single level stores, all of them can be done if the architect and owner wants.

And  the parking lots, why all malls are not installing solar parking lots, and sell the power back to Eskom or local suburb ... I mean, it is a place of trading. (rofl) 

Silver, if mall owners and Eskom wanted to, every single one would have done it already, as would have the mines and other large factories. Actually, all new buildings would probably be built different to utilize the sunlight as best they can.

It is a simple case of: Is there a will?

But as YOU pointed out, Solar is a expensive capital outlay and as I say, Eskom is not wanting to come and play, so the will / urgency / profit is not there.

But if I was pressi ... :D

 

Once heard of a factory that got robbed in PE. They had these huge cables rolls in the factory, the ones on those large wooden tolls. Factory had a very high ceiling. Monday one was gone, no forced entry or exit, alarm still on. Turns out the thieves somehow got that huge thing out via the roof, and then put the sheets back ... no-one knew how, but the evidence was there on the roof sheet and the marks on the ground where the toll was loaded onto  a truck.

 

My point, if you want something really bad, you will find a way to get it, skylights or no skylights, mall allowing it or not, Eskom wanting it or not.

Well, thats the thing. eskom did not "wanted to" ;)

 

Many people want to go solar but don't know much about it and the costs are quite prohibitive in many cases. Take, for example, solar panels: They cost about US 53 per watt, after manufacturing, on bulk orders. Some are cheaper. Some are more expensive. 

So you buy 250W for $132.50. That's R1950.11 (rounded off). Add 14% VAT and 10% import duties and it cost R2445.44. No markup added yet. They sell for R2600 on the street today. Hardly any profit - approx 6%. 

These cheap grey inverters cost USD500. Do the math and see how you come to R11,000 that they retail for. Our government takes very little, bar VAT and import duties, but that's all part of trade. Then you take a locally manufactured inverter and it's bloody expensive. Cause our labor is expensive. And taxes. And insurance, marketing, etc, etc. 

The major problem with South Africa is that we're used to cheap electricity. Some of the cheapest in the world, till 2008 (two or years earlier perhaps) when Eskom realized they they wasted all the maintenance money on cheap hookers and booze. Now we sit with this crisis, which is both financial and supply & demand. The mindset we have, due to that past, is that solar is expensive. 

 

Heck you would buy a R750K SUV, which cost R15K to service every couple month and tires cost R20k a set, without even thinking twice about it. The moment you turn the key at the dealer, that rust bucket has dropped in value. Yet you won't invest in an energy plant for yourself and your future. South Africans need to get out of this mindset, somehow. 

But many corporations have seen the light. I can only imagine that those big 100mW+ solar farms could cost and they built it at the flick of a finger. 

Give it two years and most of the malls and shopping centers have converted. And it doesn't take much for the staff to see the benefit and use it at home as well. 

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Amen brother ... re. the expensive cars and Eskom and taxes and corps seeing the benefit  ... but Plonkster gaan jou skel oor Expensive labour.

Cannot wait for the mails to make the first move. You buy "solar electricity" from them that you can "think" you are now on solar power. That Eskom scheme they did.

 

Hey wait ... if more and more corps go solar, then Eskom is living in a dream world that "they" fixed the crisis?

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10 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

Many people want to go solar but don't know much about it and the costs are quite prohibitive in many cases

Oh man, you see this on Facebook. Because solar companies all brag about their installs on Facebook. So up comes this post, hey look at this awesome system we put up for this awesome client, and then all the comments are like: That is so awesome, I want one, how much does it cost?

And I get this sinking feeling because I know someone's dream is about to be shattered, because the inverter in that picture alone costs more than three home loan payments (or something like that). So one day I comment dryly that if you have to ask the price, as with a Rolls Royce, perhaps you cannot afford it, and another commenter shoots back: Why are you being so sarcastic? Ufff. Groan. Just speaking the truth here... :-)

10 hours ago, SilverNodashi said:

Heck you would buy a R750K SUV, which cost R15K to service every couple month and tires cost R20k a set, without even thinking twice about it.

Well, yes, I know people who would do that (I wouldn't, I'll elaborate later :-) ). I hear this BMW ad on the radio. First, you have to appreciate how much effort they put into pulling all those emotional strings. They speak of how you are one of the elite people who realise... (you're special in other words) that owning a new BMW is entirely within your "command" (what? I thought you were going to say "reach" but this sounds so much more manly!), but looks aren't enough to ensure "dominance" (aaaah, so your client base are the kind of people who grab you by the fingers when you shake their hand and then assert their dominance by squashing them), so this also goes with a strong engine blah blah blah... starting from only R13 200 a month (and I'm sitting there thinking goodness gracious you can buy a HOUSE with that down-payment), knowing full well that this is the "starting price", on other words that thing likely comes with a 20% deposit and a 35% residual, in other words that is a 30k a month car!

People still buy them. Some of those same people claim that solar is too expensive. Yes.

But the argument still holds, to a lesser extent, lower down. I think many more people will buy a 200k vehicle without thinking twice, taking out a loan even, possibly being a bit wiser about putting down a 20% deposit, not taking a residual and not stretching the loan to 72 months, and then they will proceed to pay 3k a month to pay off that car. I did that too, 6 years ago. It's a perfectly good way to pay for a car, you just have to buy the right car. What you care about is total cost of ownership. On a new car, the interest might well be less than the maintenance and repair on an old one (which is why you must buy the right car). I digress. Point is still, people will spend 3k a month on a car, a depreciating asset (if it be fair to call it an asset in all cases), but still think solar is too expensive. So there is definitely still a type of priority problem with most people.

However, I did say this holds to a lesser extent, and here is why: I can borrow money for a car at 12% or thereabouts. If I want to borrow money to put a solar array on my roof, I must either rob my home loan, or I have to take a loan at credit card or personal loan rates, in other words, it is treated as unsecured debt.

I can sort of see the point, that perhaps repossessing a man's solar plant and selling it to cover costs isn't a good way to back the loan (yet), but it still strikes me as odd that a man can buy a car at 12%, but cannot do the same for an asset that's actually worth it, and could be used to back the loan. Perhaps the lenders know something I don't.

Finally, that pet peeve I had with people squashing your hand. I met this guy in December, family of family. Now I'm not a big guy, but you cannot say that I have a limp handshake... so I'm somewhat surprised when he proceeds to squash my fingers. So the little get-together passes and it is time to say goodbye, and wanting to avoid my fingers being squashed I go in a bit more firmly this time... only to have him grab me by the fingers again and squashing it. That's when I realised how this guy shakes hands, not starting with an open hand that you can grab firmly, but rather with one that is only half open so that he can do that to you! Now if the way you shake a man's hand is an indication of what kind of man you are... what is this guy? Perhaps he should go buy that BMW, I think they deserve each other. I feel sorry for his wife (which is nr. 4 I believe).

Okay. Now I've had my say, and you guys can proceed to laugh and enjoy the rest of the day :-)

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Thanks Plonkster, I really like these titbits. Respect.

The 12% is to stimulate sales. At normal rates no-one will never buy that elite reaching hand squashing commanding BMV?

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52 minutes ago, plonkster said:

... not starting with an open hand that you can grab firmly, but rather with one that is only half open so that he can do that to you!

Had a client who drove a Merc who did exactly that. Tried 3 times to get a proper grip, could not, 4th time I stood back refused to shake his hand saying no, I am not shaking your hand and you know why. 

It was a risk, but I thought, if he has a sense of humour it will be fine. It he is offended, tough but I am done playing this silly game.

Today he shakes my hand normally. 

But then, having said that, after I read one day how not everyone washes their hands in bars and what is found in the peanut bowls on the counter, on shopping trolley handles bars or escalators ... 

 

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While our government departments and state owned enterprises with the notable exception od the Dept of Finance flounder from one disaster  stupidity or corruption to the next one, it is very refreshing to come across a leader that knows how to govern outstandingly. Take a look at this and other reports about the matter. http://whatson.ae/dubai/2016/08/sheikh-mohammed-makes-surprise-visit-government-office/ Really a feel good story for me.   My daughter who works in Dubai told me about it last night.

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First this happened: http://www.bdlive.co.za/business/financial/2016/09/01/key-asset-manager-drops-state-firms

And now this: http://www.bdlive.co.za/business/financial/2016/09/01/danish-bank-becomes-second-money-manager-to-stop-lending-to-eskom

Nou wat nou Brian?

What interested me was the 1st one came out after Brian said Eskom is strong again and there is no more load shedding. The coal fiasco is just one more piefie whatever nothing is gonna happen theft.

So I wonder if it is a very long play to stop any and all ideas of a debt ridden nuclear deal for SA prior to Zumexit seeing as Eskom is becoming cash strong?

EDIT: OR is Gordhan somehow involved behind the scenes to stop the pilfering?

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After NeneGate, I saw a little bit of the inside working of business. Business owners got together and asked what they could do. It is rumoured -- though very likely true -- that it was "business" that spoke to some ANC big wigs and urged them to bring Nene back (or Pravin) before Monday... because if they don't, the minute the stock market opens it would be a blood bath! It is also rumoured -- and likely to be true -- that Zuma was ORDERED to fix it (or else)... and so, when this thing with Treasury came down I started wondering what it is that make Zuma inc thinks it's going to work this time? There is one thing in his favour: We're between public protectors. Other than that, I would think he is weaker now that he was before. He is however more desperate, and one should not underestimate a desperate man.

In any case, knowing that Big Business has a LOT of pull, chances are that is what we're beginning to see. It's part of a long continuum really, starting with the banks dropping the Guptas. I wonder if perhaps, knowing what lies in wait in December, perhaps the consensus is that it's better to crash it quickly (or make it look like you're going to) so you have a month or so left for some kind of a turnaround, because the alternative is a certain downgrade. It's debatable whether it's still possible to avoid it.

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When you have a festering sore on your leg, putting the leg and you in danger, you need to either sort it quick or cut off the leg.

I wonder if we are closer to cutting off the leg than we want to be - i.e. the nuclear option that is rumored.

The way it is going now is only down, unless there is a tax revolt with all big business standing in.

The fact that Old Mutual says no, concerns me, for they HAVE to know the level of corruption: http://www.bdlive.co.za/business/financial/2016/09/01/old-mutual-distances-itself-from-futuregrowths-call-on-state-owned-enterprises

 

Which reminds me, the banks KNEW re. Gupta's dealings and the banks KNOW all the funds being symphony off, as would SARS ... wonder if that is why there is a battle going on.

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12 hours ago, plonkster said:

Oh man, you see this on Facebook. Because solar companies all brag about their installs on Facebook. So up comes this post, hey look at this awesome system we put up for this awesome client, and then all the comments are like: That is so awesome, I want one, how much does it cost?

And I get this sinking feeling because I know someone's dream is about to be shattered, because the inverter in that picture alone costs more than three home loan payments (or something like that). So one day I comment dryly that if you have to ask the price, as with a Rolls Royce, perhaps you cannot afford it, and another commenter shoots back: Why are you being so sarcastic? Ufff. Groan. Just speaking the truth here... :-)

 

A woman walks into a fancy carpet shop.As she bends over to feel one of the nice soft Persian carpets, she lets out a fart. At that very moment the sales rep appears. Ashamed, she asks, "how much for this rug". The saleman replies, "woman, if you farted by touching it, you will surely shit in your pants if you hear the price!". 

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