Patched 192.04
i flashed now to 92.06 patched 200v version

Something in the firmware or hardware suppresses the MPPT to go up in Voltage.
It spikes up to full voltage momentarily and this causes the AC out loss followed up by F80 in my case.

92.06 has higher startup voltage, this should in theory make the spikes smaller and less riskt for F80.

in the second screenshot from @add1c7ed55 it looks like a similar phenomen locked in at 183v beginning from 15.50. (i guess you have the 200v version) as the day before it was at 90v the same time locked in.

so in my opinion the locked in phenomen is less prone but just moved higher from 90v to 175/200 (depending on version) in the patched firmware.

i think the basic problem still exist, even with the solar cable unplugged from the helper PCB.
 

Edited December 17, 20223 yr by mjmx8k

acum 3 ore, mjmx8k a spus:

Patched 192.04
am flashat acum la 92.06 corecţionat 200v versiunea

Ceva în firmware sau hardware suprimă MPPT pentru a merge în tensiune.
Se ridică momentan la tensiunea maximă și acest lucru provoacă pierderea de ieșire AC urmată de F80 în cazul meu.

92.06 are o tensiune de pornire mai mare, acest lucru ar trebui, teoretic, să facă vârfurile mai mici și mai puțin riscante pentru F80.

în a doua captură de ecran de la @add1c7ed55 pare un fenomen similar blocat la 183 de vedere de la 15.50. (Bănuesc că versiunea de 200 V), deoarece cu o zi înainte a fost la 90 V, în același timp, blocat.

Deci, în opinia mea, fenomenul de blocare este mai puțin predispus, dar tocmai a trecut de la 90 V la 175/200 (în funcție de versiune) în firmware-ul corecţionat.

Cred că problema există, chiar și cu cablul solar deconectat de la PCB de ajutor.
 

Da. versiunea 200v. Aici in romania, la 15.50 este aproape noapte. Fara lumina solara. Este normal să cobori. Problema persistă, dar funcționează mai bine decât originalul. Cred că este cel mai bun mod... este suficient. Dar am o întrebare, dacă lucrăm cu cablul deconectat, invertorul nu va fi defect în timp? Adică, cred că inginerii care au pus acel conector l-au pus cu un reason?

and 2. What happening if disconnect the battery when thw inverter is running? Cauze Georg said that cant work.without batteries 

 

 

 

yes! the more close the statup voltage is to nominal panel voltage the better it works. i think 5-10% below is good.

@Coulombplease would it be possible that you make me 92.06 with
210v for my 3P1 and 3P2 (both MPPT)
245 volt startup for my 3P3 (both MPPT)


green and orange is 6x36,7v= 220v
pink is 7x36,7v = 256v

and pink is locked in again and makes spikes because it wants to go higher but cannot

 

and as on the second chart of @add1c7ed55 i think he would need then a 330v version. would be very interesting to see difference and parallels on his much higher voltage.

 

2 hours ago, mjmx8k said:

yes! the more close the statup voltage is to nominal panel voltage the better it works. i think 5-10% below is good.

@Coulombplease would it be possible that you make me 92.06 with
210v for my 3P1 and 3P2 (both MPPT)
245 volt startup for my 3P3 (both MPPT)


green and orange is 6x36,7v= 220v
pink is 7x36,7v = 256v

and pink is locked in again and makes spikes because it wants to go higher but cannot

 

and as on the second chart of @add1c7ed55 i think he would need then a 330v version. would be very interesting to see difference and parallels on his much higher voltage.

 

Do think i will be more efficient with 330v ? Pls answer to my 2 questions upstairs.

92.06 200v version
90v spike on 3P3, AC Out loss, F80.

MPPT spikes bigger than 30 volt creates AC Out losses

Original startup voltage 90v
Real production start at 70-80 and freeze at 95-100v (around 30 volt difference)
Helper PCB inject 60v
90v original startup - 60v from hpsu = again 30 volt

Battery 50v and 30v = 80v where pv production starts.

My 3P3 has now startup voltage of 200, but runs at ~ 175v in average (spikes to 265v)
again here we have a number of around 30v

so the 30 volts (or 24v maybe?) seem to be somehow magic for MPPT, like the 0,2 amps
 

1 hour ago, mjmx8k said:

92.06 Versiune
de 200 V Spike de 90 V pe 3P3, pierdere AC Out, F80.

Picurile MPPT mai mari de 30 de volți creează pierderi de ieșire AC

Tensiune originală de pornire 90v
Producția reală începe la 70-80 și îngheață la 95-100v (aproximativ 30 volți diferență)
PCB auxiliar injectează 60v
90v pornire originală - 60v de la hpsu = din nou 30 volți

Baterie 50v și 30v = 80v unde începe producția pv.

3P3-ul meu are acum o tensiune de pornire de 200, dar rulează la ~ 175v în medie (crește la 265v)
iar aici avem un număr de aproximativ 30v

deci cei 30 de volți (sau 24 de volți poate?) par a fi într-un fel magic pentru MPPT, cum ar fi cei 0,2 amperi
I dont have that problems. I will put a graphic today.

8 minutes ago, add1c7ed55 said:

1 hour ago, mjmx8k said:

92.06 Versiune
de 200 V Spike de 90 V pe 3P3, pierdere AC Out, F80.

Picurile MPPT mai mari de 30 de volți creează pierderi de ieșire AC

Tensiune originală de pornire 90v
Producția reală începe la 70-80 și îngheață la 95-100v (aproximativ 30 volți diferență)
PCB auxiliar injectează 60v
90v pornire originală - 60v de la hpsu = din nou 30 volți

Baterie 50v și 30v = 80v unde începe producția pv.

3P3-ul meu are acum o tensiune de pornire de 200, dar rulează la ~ 175v în medie (crește la 265v)
iar aici avem un număr de aproximativ 30v .

deci cei 30 de volți (sau 24 de volți poate?) prin a fi într-un fel magic pentru MPPT, cum ar fi cei 0,2 amperi
I dont have that problems. Voi pune un grafic azi.

Extinde  

I dont have spikes 90v...mine works great.

16 hours ago, mjmx8k said:

MPPT spikes bigger than 30 volt creates AC Out losses
 

I never experience AC Out Losses no matter how hard the MPPT spikes:

I only had AC dropouts when I had two inverters in parallel operation and only when F80 occurred. 

As you can see when it spiked (4 seconds spike), it switched to Battery from Grid input (you can tell by the nice smooth 230V line since the grid is all over the place). Again, when it actually started production and MPPT Voltage went to 380V.

It starts to make a little more sense since I had F80 just for switching operation mode from Solar Assistant and Boom F80, AC out drop and all went to bypass. But I suspected Solar Assistant was doing something wrong or pure coincidence.

I'm using the inverter with the factory firmware, never patched it or messed with the firmware (73.04). I missing a lot of power production, but for now I thought it may be good to have one untouched and monitored for reference until this things are sorted out.

So I think that you might be right about the sag. Maybe the supply voltage of the parallel board sags too much during the spike and when the master inverter tries to tell the slaves to switch modes, the communication is not working right.

If you have soldering skills I would suggest to power the parallel boards from an external power supply. Since is isolated from the power side you could use the same power supply for all the boards. You would have to disconnect the small two pin white connector (CN1) and solder the external psu wires directly on the filter cap (C1 - as per schematics in Coulomb's link). This way no matter how hard the DC bus sags, the CAN driver and the optos would not be able to mess comms and F80 should not occur. 

 

 

Thank you for the chart.

In fact, this proves that MPPT spikes influence the whole system in one or the other incorrect way.

as 2 parallel have shorter transfer time than 3Phase, maybe in your case the system manage to switch to battery right in time instead of loosing AC Out. Both parallel types have to monitor and regulate frequency timing synchronization, but 3Phase needs additionally monitor phase timing shift. so maybe in a parallel single phase the AC Out could be avoided as there is a load balancing for the same phase.

i think the F80 is a correct reaction in both parallel types and we need to find the source to these reactons.

i also think that the MPPTs of the newer DSP chip models work / behave differently from the older chip versions, so maybe voltronic has not yet really adopted the newer firmwares to the newer DSP but did only a drop in replacement with some get it working quickly fixes.

it seems that the older DSP models work well with the patched versions, but my models with newer DSP defintitively still have issues with the MPPT.

It also proves that these spikes appear most often when the MPPT is sticky or (of course) releases from the sticky point) (and no matter what is the definition of startup voltage in the patched versions)

( i found one spike in the middle of the night to 60v, panels covered with snow, so its not from the moon)

based on my SA charts i even want to go further and say a spike in one inverter can create an AC Out loss in an other inverter (CAN Bus communication and correction attempts)

to power the CAN Boards separately is a very good idea, but i will first wait if there is a chance to solve the MPPT spikes issue as i have the feeling that this also solves the F90

Please see how nicely it goes up to 200v (Version 92.06) first, then it becomes shaggy and dropping down about close to 30 volt, and at 8:25 the pink spike causing AC Out Loss on P3 AND P2. survived without F80 as the amps are still below 0,2

 

@Coulomb
do you think it is worth to try a firmware version with startup voltage set to 75volt when the pcb cable is unplugged? it could overcome these 75v easily and quickly increase amps.

19 hours ago, mjmx8k said:

do you think it is worth to try a firmware version with startup voltage set to 75volt when the pcb cable is unplugged?

No, but that's only based on a gut feeling. I don't feel that there is much power in a typical higher voltage string of panels at 75-90 V.

I do not see why one would want to seek maximum power points at voltages lover than 70% of Voc of the string.

If you look at P-V curves below that is almost no usable power. So, in my opinion, if the MPPT is not able to learn dynamically this voltage it would be best to be able to set it as an inverter parameter because it varies with string configuration (and then with temperature).

Actually, a pv panel is a current source. It's kind of unpractical to shunt a curent source and wait for the voltage to increase rather to let it extremely light loaded until it reaches max volts (this happens very quickly) and then start increasing the load until the voltage drops a bit. 

Bad MPPT algorithm. This is the main problem.

The corect startup voltage is string configuration dependent.

6 hours ago, Coulomb said:

No, but that's only based on a gut feeling. I don't feel that there is much power in a typical higher voltage string of panels at 75-90 V.

Pls tell me, i disconected the cable, and i think Something goes wrong, the inverter watts is more than before disconecting the cable. Here i have 246w for the inverter. Is too much..what do u think ?

I think the inverter shows unreal consumption or production cause cant read the solar, or the self consumption of inverter increased.

Edited December 20, 20223 yr by add1c7ed55

6 hours ago, add1c7ed55 said:

Here i have 246w for the inverter. Is too much..what do u think ?

Could the unexpected 100-200 W are going into the utility? The firmware likely doesn't want to report a negative value for AC-in power, and reports zero instead.

Certainly 246 W consumption is too high for such a small AC-out load. But remember also that some of the figures are guessed; not all are actual measurements. So there can be considerable inaccuracies.

Got today original Firmware 72.62 HV
this seems to have a MPPT Startup voltage of 120v

lets see the surprises of the next days with this version.

Can you share the firmware also for us? Thank you?

This is original firmware 72.62 HV, for the Axpert Max 1 8 kW, with the removable display.
This firmware is for the newer DSP Chip, Arena Flash tool, Startup Voltage seem to be 120v

Use at your own risk!

Have flashed it to 4 Inverters well
Helper PSU to Solar cable unplugged,
Results unknown yet.

maybe @Coulomb, @Georg594can have a more in depth look into it
 

 

Edited December 21, 20223 yr by mjmx8k

Ok i need the other flasher so maybe if for you it will work good, i will ask them alao the reflashtool, they gave you only this one with Arena ?

4 hours ago, Coulomb said:

Ar putea intra în utilitate 100-200 W neaștepți? Firmware-ul probabil nu dorește să raporteze o valoare negativă pentru alimentarea AC-in și raportează în schimb zero.

Cu siguranță, consumul de 246 W este prea mare pentru o sarcină de ieșire AC atât de mică. Dar amintiți-vă și că unele dintre cifre sunt ghicite; nu toate sunt măsurători reale. Deci pot exista inexactități considerabile.

I guess this is...not real values.

2 hours ago, mjmx8k said:

Acesta este firmware-ul original 72.62 HV, pentru Axpert Max 1 8 kW, cu display detașabil.
Acest firmware este pentru cip DSP mai nou, instrument Arena Flash, tensiunea de pornire pare a fi de 120v

Folosiți pe propria răspundere!

L-am trimis la 4 invertoare bine
Helper PSU la cablul solar deconectat,
Rezultatele încă necunoscute.

pot fi@Coulomb,@Georg594poate avea o privire mai aprofundată asupra ei
 

MAX_HV8k 72.62.7z 565,62 kB · 3 descărcări

What improvements have this firmware ? Difference between this and 92.06 patched by George and Coulomb?

5 hours ago, Coulomb said:

Could the unexpected 100-200 W are going into the utility? The firmware likely doesn't want to report a negative value for AC-in power, and reports zero instead.

Certainly 246 W consumption is too high for such a small AC-out load. But remember also that some of the figures are guessed; not all are actual measurements. So there can be considerable inaccuracies.

My grid was off on that test, then, there is not current injection, or is false values, or thats the self consumption of inverter.

8 hours ago, mjmx8k said:

maybe @Coulomb, @Georg594can have a more in depth look into it

Warning! This is for the '28066 DSP processor, hence the Arena reflash tool. This thread is about the '2809 processor (old reflash tool).

On 2022/12/21 at 3:30 AM, mjmx8k said:

maybe @Coulomb, @Georg594can have a more in depth look into it

So far, I see almost no differences, looking at the MPPT control code. MPPT minimum voltage is still 90.0V!

[ Edit: WRONG! That was in the table where it is usually stored. I found that there is a function that checks values for sanity, and it changed it to 120.0 V if it was anything other than 120.0 V!! Also, there is a check in the main interrupt routine for the instantaneous PV voltage with 120.0 V. ]

The only change I've noticed so far is that one of the cases in the forward constant lookup table has been restored, back to 90.06 values. This would only make a very minor change to response speed, not affect the actual bugs.

There are changes elsewhere in the code, compared to 92.04, which is the most recent comparable firmware. This .inv (hex) file is dated 19/Dec/2022, compared to 22/Sep for 92.04 and 11/Feb for 90.06 (all 2022). It will take me a while to figure out the other changes.

So that's a bit disappointing. Don't those guys read this forum? 😐

Edited December 22, 20223 yr by Coulomb

6 hours ago, Coulomb said:

This thread is about the '2809 processor (old reflash tool).

This thread started for the Max 8k about the MPPT issue before it became clear there are 2 DSP versions for the same model.

So i cannot see any dedication of this tread to the older DSP chip models only. There are even posts about the similar but different 11k models in this thread.

Excuse me if i was misposting in this thread wrongly.

2 hours ago, mjmx8k said:

Excuse me if i was misposting in this thread wrongly.

Not at all; I'm guilty of posting about 11 kW models here. Thread drift is somewhat inevitable.

I just wanted to warn readers that might mostly have the '2809 DSP chip that this is not for them.

Sorry if I came across as accusatory.