11 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Welcome Dr Jones. Nope, it went nowhere.

Still interested? Shoot me an email at [email protected] ... perhaps we can talk.

1 hour ago, Dr Jones said:

Still interested? Shoot me an email at [email protected] ... perhaps we can talk.

Cost is the prohibiting factor, no?

Like the Germans would say: Jein. (Ja-nein).

Cost of materials and cost of production should be considered separately. If one were to automate heavily, the unit labor costs are pretty low, but of course then one needs more upfront capital. I'd like to just start with a few hand-made prototypes. My main problem is having access to a decent battery testing system with accurate current and voltage sensors, and programmable loads. The chemistry can be handled (PhD Chem Eng).

TTT, can you remember where you got those images of the FeNi battery plates?

Interesting. I was wondering why those iron edison batteries were so expensive, when iron and nickel are pretty cheap commodities. Unless the plates are difficult to manufacture? What is the electrolyte in that battery chemistry?

3 hours ago, Dr Jones said:

TTT, can you remember where you got those images of the FeNi battery plates?

Send me the PF thread link you are referring to?

1 hour ago, DeepBass9 said:

I was wondering why those iron edison batteries were so expensive, ...

Ditto. When I found them in the USA and in China, all I could deduce re. the price was that it was because they last so long, that is why the prices must be so high, to ensure the suitability of the company making them.

Edison batts where found under a old house, after 50 years. They where refilled  and re-charged and they worked again.

T Edison got it right - low cost power to the user ... not in profits to the Co's who made and sold them. 🙂 

1 hour ago, DeepBass9 said:

Interesting. I was wondering why those iron edison batteries were so expensive, when iron and nickel are pretty cheap commodities. Unless the plates are difficult to manufacture? What is the electrolyte in that battery chemistry?

Nickel may be abundant, but expensive to extract. The sulphide (smelting) route releases loads of SO2 which is expensive to remove. The oxide route (from laterites) requires loads of H2SO4 on low-grade ore which is also expensive to manufacture / transport and ends up as waste gypsum. The Russians have world domination on the sulphide market (Norilsk and Botswana/Tati). Laterite mines are everywhere, also Madagascar. 

Furthermore, not only metallic nickel and lead are used, but oxides which must be very carefully precipitated to ensure that Ni(OH)2 and not Ni(OH) is made, and to control the particle size of the resulting oxides. The binders used, or nickel flake (a la Edison) also needs to be produced / procured. Then we get to the plate manufacturing and nickel plating process, both which consume energy and chemicals. 

KOH electrolyte with a little LiOH. Some manufacturers use NaOH.

These days Nickel also competes in the Lithium battery market, so demand is pretty high which raises the prices. 

Edited May 16, 20197 yr by Dr Jones

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Send me the PF thread link you are referring to?

  https://powerforum.co.za/topic/871-super-capacitor-batteries/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-18836

This one

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Dr Jones said:

This one

http://edison.rutgers.edu/battpats.htm

https://static.scientificamerican.com/sciam/assets/media/inline/blog/File/1911_Edison.pdf

Edison Battery Brochure.pdf

17 minutes ago, Dr Jones said:

Nickel may be abundant, but expensive to extract.

I got that wrong then. 🙂 

28 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

http://edison.rutgers.edu/battpats.htm

https://static.scientificamerican.com/sciam/assets/media/inline/blog/File/1911_Edison.pdf

Edison Battery Brochure.pdf 894.73 kB · 0 downloads

Grazie mille 🙂

 

I think I pretty much dismissed NiFe after I discovered that their voltage efficiency is rather terrible. Their recharge voltage vs nominal is 1.6V vs 1.2V, that's a rather terrible 1.2/1.6 = 75% efficiency on voltage alone... before factoring in anything else. That's a whole 10% lower than lead-acid.

Comes down to this. Take out 100Ah at 1.2V, that's 1200Wh.

Put back 100Ah at 1.6V, that's 1600Wh.

🙂

23 minutes ago, plonkster said:

I think I pretty much dismissed NiFe after I discovered that their voltage efficiency is rather terrible. Their recharge voltage vs nominal is 1.6V vs 1.2V, that's a rather terrible 1.2/1.6 = 75% efficiency on voltage alone... before factoring in anything else. That's a whole 10% lower than lead-acid.

Comes down to this. Take out 100Ah at 1.2V, that's 1200Wh.

Put back 100Ah at 1.6V, that's 1600Wh.

🙂

Have you taken this efficiency-related energy loss over the system lifetime and compared it to the cost of replacing your lead batteries 4-5 times? Would be an interesting statistic. If you use grid power to charge your batteries, it's a whole different ballgame than only using solar which you already paid for when you bought the system.

Also, remember that the NiFe cells are 100% efficient below about 80% DoD. If you cycle your NiFe cells between 30% and 80% you severely minimize your losses. For a lead battery bank this is unthinkable. Gotta go back up to 100% to maintain lifetime.

Oh yes, and have you calculated how much energy you have to burn in every lead-acid equalization charge? Lots of electrons converted to hydrogen and heat.

Edited May 16, 20197 yr by Dr Jones

17 minutes ago, plonkster said:

Put back 100Ah at 1.6V, that's 1600Wh.

Using solar to recharge mitigates that, no?

56 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Using solar to recharge mitigates that, no?

It does, but it still reports as energy lost.

3 minutes ago, Dr Jones said:

It does, but it still reports as energy lost.

Using the tune that is sung here on the forum regularly: Add more panels, it is cheap. 😆

If the batts can last decades, then I seriously don't care to add more panels to handle the losses, if the batts carries the load I WANT.

24 minutes ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Using the tune that is sung here on the forum regularly: Add more panels, it is cheap. 😆

If the batts can last decades, then I seriously don't care to add more panels to handle the losses, if the batts carries the load I WANT.

Therein lies the rub.... the chinese cells you can really only charge/discharge at C/5 or C/10, so you need to oversize your batteries to get the amps out (and in). More modern (and more expensive) NiFe cells can charge at C/2 and even C, but you pay a premium for them compared to the chinese cells. 

To put it in perspective, try to find a single lead acid battery maker who specs his Ah based on C/5! Mostly it's based on C/20 rates and some even C/100!

Edited May 16, 20197 yr by Dr Jones

1 hour ago, The Terrible Triplett said:

Using the tune that is sung here on the forum regularly: Add more panels, it is cheap. 😆

If you have the space... and if your municipality don't slap a limit on you 🙂

I agree the picture is more complex than just efficiency. What you care about is the long term cost per stored unit. Adding 30% more PV modules to mitigate efficiency issues IF it works out cheaper in the long run (and the heavy batteries is not a problem, and you have space for the panels), then it might make sense.

I watched a program on electric vehicles a while back there was a 1905 (?)  car that still runs on nickel iron batteries . So if you get say 60 years on a set of batteries then lower efficiency I figure would be worth it

Tesla just acquired a controlling stake in Maxwell so that should say something about their battery direction.

Hi guys,

Any positive feedback on this type of storage ?

I see on the MyBB, this one was mentioned ...

https://www.gwstore.co.za/product/sirius-super-capacitor-6-7kwh-48v-energy-module/

Is it worth looking into these or should i settle for lithium (BYD, Pylontech etc.) ?

30 minutes ago, CaTcH21 said:

should i settle for lithium (BYD, Pylontech etc.) ?

I won’t call lithium “settling”, because it seems to be the best all round option for solar systems at the moment.

9 hours ago, CaTcH21 said:

Hi guys,

Any positive feedback on this type of storage ?

The Sirius product is NOT a capacitor. It seems to be an LTO battery, but why don't they tell us what it actually is?

It's so fishy I would not touch it. I'm sure this is discussed on this thread, but not in the first page.

Beware!

Reading this was interesting and as a Sirius user, I noted a few flaws in the arguments. If one is biased in a specific direction it is easy to find arguments to prove one's view. I have used 2 of the 12V 456Wh units for 3 months and the only issue I had, was that the built-in amp meters stopped working, but they were not accurate anyway. Apart from this, these units are astounding. A few thoughts:

1. These cap units are heavy (11Kg each for the above)and LTO's would have been much lighter; 2. These may not be actual capacitors as we know them, perhaps more related to Solid State Batteries?; 3. The safe charge and discharge currents exceed the capability of lithiums; 4. The charging current follows that of a capacitor when 'empty" and near full charge; 5. The safe operating temperature is up to 85 degrees Celcius, normal lithiums cannot work above 35;  6. The warranty is 10 years irrespective of charge and discharge cycles, no lithium is warranteed like this; 7. There are similar units, like the "Zoxcell" and in an article of one manufacturer, one could see the actual Maxwell Supercaps; 8. These units clearly state the charge overvoltage criticality.  Any capacitor quickly pops when subjected to overvoltage, so the picture of the fire is meaningless without facts. Even good GEL batteries melt and catch fire when overcharged. 

On the NiFe battery front, I would love to buy some of these. Those are what the old Post Office exchanges used. IronEdison frequently have special offers, but these are bulky to import. They will however last a lifetime plus...☺