Hi All

With my limited electrical knowledge Ive been trying to figure out what could be causing this issue. Every time load shedding period ends and the power is restored, the earth leakage trips. This is fine when someone is at home and its the middle of the day, so it can just be switched on again. But its a real pain when we are not home or we have LS during the middle of the night, I usually wake up to switch everything on again so the fridge and bedroom fans can go back on.

I have had 2 "electricians" out here in the last few months. The first said that the earth leakage circuit breaker is faulty and its needs to be replaced. So we did that and it changed nothing. Then he said the whole house needs to be rewired. All the while not providing any actual reasons/causes for this issue. The second guy at least had an earth leakage tester but did not pick up anything out of the ordinary. He recommended moving the geyser, stove and outside lights of the earth leakage. I was at first unsure, but after reading some discussions it seems that these devices are not required to go via a ELCB. But I said I will call him when Im ready.

So to avoid spending any more money on something that may or may not work, or just moving things off the ELCB and therefore basically ignoring the issue, I want to get an electrician that has the correct equipment and knowledge to properly diagnose the issue before going ahead with a solution. Please help me find this person, Im based in Centurion so anyone in the area would be first prize.

6 minutes ago, rodga said:

Hi All

With my limited electrical knowledge Ive been trying to figure out what could be causing this issue. Every time load shedding period ends and the power is restored, the earth leakage trips. This is fine when someone is at home and its the middle of the day, so it can just be switched on again. But its a real pain when we are not home or we have LS during the middle of the night, I usually wake up to switch everything on again so the fridge and bedroom fans can go back on.

I have had 2 "electricians" out here in the last few months. The first said that the earth leakage circuit breaker is faulty and its needs to be replaced. So we did that and it changed nothing. Then he said the whole house needs to be rewired. All the while not providing any actual reasons/causes for this issue. The second guy at least had an earth leakage tester but did not pick up anything out of the ordinary. He recommended moving the geyser, stove and outside lights of the earth leakage. I was at first unsure, but after reading some discussions it seems that these devices are not required to go via a ELCB. But I said I will call him when Im ready.

So to avoid spending any more money on something that may or may not work, or just moving things off the ELCB and therefore basically ignoring the issue, I want to get an electrician that has the correct equipment and knowledge to properly diagnose the issue before going ahead with a solution. Please help me find this person, Im based in Centurion so anyone in the area would be first prize.

Quick question, is your inverter input powered through the earth leakage?

Just now, Basil Katakuzinos said:

Quick question, is your inverter input powered through the earth leakage?

Apologies, I should have made it clear in the post that I do not have any inverter/backup power at the moment. The aim is to get the original installation upto standard ie no faults before planning/installing an inverter.

 

Bonus points if the person who can diagnose the issue also has knowledge on solar etc

1 minute ago, rodga said:

Apologies, I should have made it clear in the post that I do not have any inverter/backup power at the moment. The aim is to get the original installation upto standard ie no faults before planning/installing an inverter.

 

Bonus points if the person who can diagnose the issue also has knowledge on solar etc

Don't have an electrician to recommend but have you considered turning all the breakers off and then pushing them up one by one, faulty and old appliances can cause  an earth leakage to trip. From my limited experience old/faulty motors(fans or pool pumps perhaps) as well as fridge compressors are generally the culprit.

I had an interesting case earlier this year where a faulty incoming supply line (insulation broke down on the municipal side) lead to an earth leakage tripping. (very unlikely but i thought id mention it.) 

I see no logical reason why an electrician would suggest rewiring the house(besides them being a bad electrician)

8 minutes ago, Basil Katakuzinos said:

Don't have an electrician to recommend but have you considered turning all the breakers off and then pushing them up one by one, faulty and old appliances can cause  an earth leakage to trip. From my limited experience old/faulty motors(fans or pool pumps perhaps) as well as fridge compressors are generally the culprit.

I had an interesting case earlier this year where a faulty incoming supply line (insulation broke down on the municipal side) lead to an earth leakage tripping. (very unlikely but i thought id mention it.) 

I see no logical reason why an electrician would suggest rewiring the house(besides them being a bad electrician)

I have tried switching of different circuits in the past to see if it had any effect, I cannot recall it making any difference. I will give it a go again later when the power is out.

I have the same issue on my DB board. Sans solar at this house. Power is restored after load shedding and the RCD trips. 50/50 chance that it will not trip. Did the power on dance yesterday evening at 2:00.

If I restore it manually no problem. If I trip the other switches and turn them on one by one, no problem... If I trip the main switch and restore it the RCD is happy. BUT when eskom dies and comes back the RCD trips...

So RCD checks if the current returning through neutral is the same as the current going out through live right? So maaybe if the house was off for a while there's something that delays the current returning enough that the RCD trips. Maybe my UPS has some weird effect like that... Though actually I expect motors like fridge/freezer to maybe have that inductive kind of effect. But they're so small...I have replaced RCDs in the past that was just too sensitive which fixed the issue at my brother's house.... So I'm also thinking of replacing this one. Could be that your new one is just too sensitive as well. They're apparently not all the same quality...

I have had the same problem at another house with the RCD behind the inverter, but that only happened very rarely

The earth leakage should only feed your plug circuits, the first guy was right in recommending that you take every other circuit out of the earth leakage circuit.

If you have old type fluorescent lights they could be the cause, usually the ballast causes the earth leakage to trip. 

16 minutes ago, Antonio de Sa said:

The earth leakage should only feed your plug circuits, the first guy was right in recommending that you take every other circuit out of the earth leakage circuit.

If you have old type fluorescent lights they could be the cause, usually the ballast causes the earth leakage to trip. 

Thanks have 2 fluorescent in the kitchen which I want to change soon so will check it out 

4 hours ago, Antonio de Sa said:

The earth leakage should only feed your plug circuits, the first guy was right in recommending that you take every other circuit out of the earth leakage circuit.

If you have old type fluorescent lights they could be the cause, usually the ballast causes the earth leakage to trip. 

Please don't spread false rumours and get someone electrocuted! Can you point me to the SANS standard which says the above?

 

Only lights are allowed not to be on earth leakage and that comes with conditions too and it's also regarded as not a best practice!

9 hours ago, rodga said:

He recommended moving the geyser, stove and outside lights of the earth leakage.

Geysers must be on earth leakage see SANS 10142-1 reg 6.7.5.1.C and also stoves unless you make use of a stove coupler.

15 hours ago, Gerrie said:

Geysers must be on earth leakage see SANS 10142-1 reg 6.7.5.1.C and also stoves unless you make use of a stove coupler.

Does that include stoves and ovens?

I read elswhere (might be outdated) that it is only required if the stove/oven connection also has a 16amp plug wired on the same circuit?

Edited November 10, 20214 yr by rodga

TLDR: you probably don't have a problem on just one circuit. It's likely a combination of all your circuits together that draw peak power during start up after load shedding.

One of the serious problems with using a single residual current device (RCD or earth leakage breaker) to protect multiple circuits is that most devices have some sort of leakage. A typical 30mA RCD will trip around 24mA of leakage and when using a only one for your board all your circuit leakages add up and you are likely sitting very close to this tripping value. When you get power back from Eskom you will be drawing maximum current as all your devices start up and the leakage currents exceed you RCD tripping point. If you moved some circuits onto a 2nd RCD you should find the situation improved. In Europe most sensible electricians are moving away from single and dual RCD boards to what are called residual current breakers with over-current, more commonly known as an RCBO. These replace your individual circuit breakers and each has an RCD inbuilt so you get the protection and at the same time reduce nuisance tripping, plus only the circuit that has a fault will trip so you have better differentiation. Thomas Nagy does a good youtube video explaining this: 

 

Edited November 10, 20214 yr by Shadders
Corrected spelling mistake

24 minutes ago, Shadders said:

TLDR: you probably don't have a problem on just one circuit. It's likely a combination of all your circuits together that draw peak power during start up after load shedding.

One of the serious problems with using a single residual current device (RCD or earth leakage breaker) to protect multiple circuits is that most devices have some sort of leakage. A typical 30mA RCD will trip around 24mA of leakage and when using a only one for your board all your circuit leakages add up and you are likely sitting very close to this tripping value. When you get power back from Eskom you will be drawing maximum current as all your devices start up and the leakage currents exceed you RCD tripping point. If you moved some circuits onto a 2nd RCD you should find the situation improved. In Europe most sensible electricians are moving away from single and dual RCD boards to what are called residual current breakers with over-current, more commonly known as an RCBO. These replace your individual circuit breakers and each has an RCD inbuilt so you get the protection and at the same time reduce nuisance tripping, plus only the circuit that has a fault will trip so you have better differentiation. Thomas Nagy does a good youtube video explaining this: 

 

Thanks

This is what was explained to me over a phone call a while back when discussing with an ex electrician

I did actually come across the RCBO during my google investigations, so will definitely look into this if the cost is not too prohibitive

 

15 minutes ago, rodga said:

I did actually come across the RCBO during my google investigations, so will definitely look into this if the cost is not too prohibitive

Or, split your DB in 2 with dual RCDs could be an option. If there is space, this will be less expensive, and likely less work and quicker to do.

5 hours ago, rodga said:

Does that include stoves and ovens?

The regulations mostly states cooking appliances. Stoves and oven to me would fall under that category. They need to be on earth leakage unless a stove coupler is used that comply with SANS 60309-1 (google SANS 337) 

18 hours ago, Sarel said:

Or, split your DB in 2 with dual RCDs could be an option. If there is space, this will be less expensive, and likely less work and quicker to do.

RCD = ELCB? So the exisitng ones I have can be used? Or are they different?

 

13 hours ago, Gerrie said:

The regulations mostly states cooking appliances. Stoves and oven to me would fall under that category. They need to be on earth leakage unless a stove coupler is used that comply with SANS 60309-1 (google SANS 337) 

thanks

22 hours ago, rodga said:

RCD = ELCB

Yes

I had a similar problem and tried for ages to find what it was, occasionally happened when changing from grid to solar power.

Also where I live there are frequently trips due to electrical storms.

In the end I fitted an auto reset device - search for Circutor REC4 2P-40-30 as an example. Probably cheaper than a rewire and a straightforward swap.

8 minutes ago, Acuario said:

I had a similar problem and tried for ages to find what it was, occasionally happened when changing from grid to solar power.

Also where I live there are frequently trips due to electrical storms.

In the end I fitted an auto reset device - search for Circutor REC4 2P-40-30 as an example. Probably cheaper than a rewire and a straightforward swap.

Interesting device. Just searched but google does not pick up that model on any local pages

Where did you get yours from? Assuming you are local to SA?

No, not in SA but in Spain. Maybe you'll need to ship one from elsewhere. Well worth it as it saves defrosted freezers when you go on holiday.

There are several manufacturers but you'll need to research. I think Hagar do one, maybe Schneider do as well.      

Edited November 12, 20214 yr by Acuario

On 2021/11/09 at 4:19 PM, Antonio de Sa said:

The earth leakage should only feed your plug circuits, the first guy was right in recommending that you take every other circuit out of the earth leakage circuit.

If you have old type fluorescent lights they could be the cause, usually the ballast causes the earth leakage to trip. 

Definitely not. Please check SANS10142 again on earth leakage protection. 

8 hours ago, Leshen said:

Definitely not. Please check SANS10142 again on earth leakage protection. 

@Leshen, Thank you very much for the information. Really was under the impression that only the plugs circuits were connected to the EL. Checked my house DB and all circuits are connected to my 32 Amp/ 20 mA EL.

By the way ... not all socket outlets have to be on earth leakage ... when refering to socket outlets ... you need to be more specific. 

To keep it simple ... you get white sockets ... red sockets ... blue sockets ... each has a sans specification and generally used with equipment like a UPS or inverter ... in the past some had a separate earth terminal and a clean earth was required ... however over time that idea was scrapped and we back to bonding everything together in most cases. 

 

People experiencing the earth leakage tripping at the end of load shedding.

Please be more specific with the type and manufacturer of earth leakage ... is it a big wide old Heinemann (CBI) ... with or without an earth wire at the bottom ... a thinner unit which drops the lever to the bottom ... or is it the new one which trips half and has to be reset by pushing the lever to the bottom then up to reset.

Do you have a chint or ABB or schnieder ... lesco ... major tech  etc etc ?

What is leakage current when the unit is in general daily use? 

DO you have surge arrestors in your DB ... at each plug point ? 

If you have those ellies red plug tops ... have you checked that the 2 light are on as per the instruction. 

DO you have old VIR wiring and metal piping in the roof or do you have PVC wire in PVC conduits ... or twin +e with bare earth wires with no sleeve on the bare earth pushed into pvc boxes ... or do you have surfix where the sparkie hasnt taped where he stripped with the knife.

Do you have a stove connected to the earth earth leakage ... with a plate that you havent used in a long time.

Is your geyser hot and cold water pipes bonded and earthed properly ?

How long is the piece of string ... what is the level of leakage on your property  or just the earth leakage unit ? 

It would be interesting to see if it is a specific type or brand. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, isetech said:

DO you have surge arrestors in your DB ... at each plug point ? 

Good point , isetech .  Which begs a new question, what is the magnitude and quality of the incoming supply when the the grid starts feeding again from Eskom?  Maybe the gas arresting part of a surge protector strikes because of this.

Only way to find out is next load shedding session switch  the Main breaker off , and only re- connect manually after the end of loadshedding. If ok, it's a giveaway that the transient state of Eskom supply when they re-connect is ungracefull/unstable.