2 minutes ago, Steve87 said:

The Sunsynk cannot do this. Hence I suggested the Kodak Off grid. This is a game changer of note especially for my needs and the needs of many other folks. When the grid is not present ie. Loadshedding the Sunsynk will switch off without a battery. 

Thank you Steve. You've been really awesome at answering all my questions. I'm sure it's getting annoying now! haha. 
 

3 minutes ago, Steve87 said:

The other questions I won't answer because, to me your narrow set of requirement is to run batteryless.

Does this include the questions about essentials and non-essentials? Are these only an issue if you have a battery in the system? 

Hi @MKRandburg

This has been a really interesting discussion and I have learnt a lot about how the Axpert inverters work (I have a Sunsynk myself so I am biased 🙂 ) .  I thought it would be a good idea to summarise the differences between the inverters AXPert type inverters and the Sunsynk inverters. Maybe one of the Axpert experts can comment if they think I have left anything out.  

The main difference between these inverters really has to do with the fundamentally different approaches they have to "blending" power from the PV Panels/Battery  with power from the grid.

My understanding is that the Axpert inverters work their power blending by powering the inverter with power from the grid when there is not enough power available from the PV Panels/Batteries . It is a simple system, works well and reduces the number of components required so as to keep the costs down.   

Advantages:

• Inverters are cheaper
• Some models can generate AC power just from PV Panels with no battery/grid attached

Disadvantages

• Not 100% efficient, not sure exactly what the efficiency is but from the specs it looks to be around 90% efficient. So to supply a 1kw load you would be pulling 1.1kw from the grid if you need to blend power in from the grid. 
• Inverter will trip out if you exceed the inverter rating for extended periods of time (more than 15-30 seconds)
• No split between essential & non-essential loads, your loads are either going to run from the inverter 100% of the time, even when there is loads shedding, or they will run from the grid. As you can't backfeed into the grid, you are not able to power non-battery backed up loads from the inverter.   

 

The Sunsynk inverters handle the power blending by adding to grid power rather than powering the inverter with power from the grid. They also have a non-essential side for loads which will loose their power when there is no grid power and an essential side which will stay powered when there is no grid.

Advantages:

• More efficient as grid power is not being used to power the inverter so no power loss to power being blended from the grid
• Power to be supplied on essential side in excess of the inverters maximum production ability (Up to maximum pass thru power rating)
• No maximum power draw on the non-essential side 
• Allows you so split your loads between essential and non-essential if desired so as not to flatten your battery powering non-essential loads when there is load shedding but still being able to send excess solar power to them when you are grid attached.  

Disadvantages:

• Has to have a battery to run without the grid

I hope this serves to summarise the advantages of spending the extra money, obviously it is up to the individual to decide whether the extra cost is worth it or not. 

 

Must admit this thread has been a great discussion & journey into both worlds of Voltronics & Sunsynk/ Deye. Glad it did not deteriorate into a A Vs B & this is better than that. I still think both machines are good value & each has his place in the market. 

To me the premise of any installation starts with a user requirement & then you look at what equipment solves that. @MKRandburgit's not annoying at all. It's about information & learning. I haven't stopped learning & the world of solar is just too broad to know everything. But with rubbing shoulders with a specific experience of Equipment & by seeking the technical publications we get to solving the problem. 

No point me as installer carrying out an installation & the user hasn't solved the original requirement. Otherwise we have waisted our time & your money. Nothing good can come out of this type of experience. I am not a Sunsynk specialist but if I was approached with such an installation requirement I would rather refer this to a specialist installer in that domain that I trust to get a positive outcome. 

@Sc00bs thanks for adding that to this interesting thread. Do you mind elaborating a bit on the non essentials bit? Can those items still be powered from PV or is it just pass through?

 

Edit: seems I just need to read "Weller" my question was answered thanks.

Edited September 18, 20223 yr by Beachless

1 hour ago, Steve87 said:

Must admit this thread has been a great discussion & journey into both worlds of Voltronics & Sunsynk/ Deye. Glad it did not deteriorate into a A Vs B & this is better than that. I still think both machines are good value & each has his place in the market. 

To me the premise of any installation starts with a user requirement & then you look at what equipment solves that. @MKRandburgit's not annoying at all. It's about information & learning. I haven't stopped learning & the world of solar is just too broad to know everything. But with rubbing shoulders with a specific experience of Equipment & by seeking the technical publications we get to solving the problem. 

No point me as installer carrying out an installation & the user hasn't solved the original requirement. Otherwise we have waisted our time & your money. Nothing good can come out of this type of experience. I am not a Sunsynk specialist but if I was approached with such an installation requirement I would rather refer this to a specialist installer in that domain that I trust to get a positive outcome. 

I agree 100% @Steve87 , has been a great discussion and I have learnt a lot. Thank you guys for making it a good healthy discussion 🙂 

37 minutes ago, Beachless said:

@Sc00bs thanks for adding that to this interesting thread. Do you mind elaborating a bit on the non essentials bit? Can those items still be powered from PV or is it just pass through?

 

Edit: seems I just need to read "Weller" my question was answered thanks.

Hi @Beachless

The non-essential/Aux port is basically the same as having a grid-tied inverter attached to that part of your DB Board. 

There is a CT clamp on the power line coming in from the grid which measures the power coming in and to ensure that the inverter is not feeding back into the grid unless you want to. There is always a small load being pulled from the grid so that any slight surges don't feed back.   

There are some settings in the inverter where you can set at what battery SOC level it will start sending power to the Aux/Non-essential port. You can obviously set it as low as you want.

In the above example, it will start sending power to the Aux port when you are making more than 500W of solar power and the battery is 100% charged. 

So say you have your pool pump connected to the port, the pump will run from grid power until such time as the battery is 100% charged, the inverter will then start powering the pump from solar power being generated. If the grid gets disconnected (load shedding for example) the pump will be disconnected and will stop working, your essential loads will however carry on being run from the inverter & battery. If the SOC of your battery drops below 95% the inverter will stop running the pump from solar power and the pump will carry on running from the grid (if present). 

You obviously do still have the option of connecting the pump to the normal/essential side of the inverter and it will run irrespective of the battery SOC and grid status. 

There is a pretty good video from the guys at Sunsynk explaining in a bit more depth

 

 

Thank you for the elaboration.

2 hours ago, Sc00bs said:

No split between essential & non-essential loads, your loads are either going to run from the inverter 100% of the time, even when there is loads shedding, or they will run from the grid. As you can't backfeed into the grid, you are not able to power non-battery backed up loads from the inverter.   

Thanks @Sc00bs for the summary, appreciate it. 
I just need some elaboration on the above. What are the practical implications of the above - for both when there is loadshedding and when there is grid. Also in the future if I do want to add batteries to the system - what impact will that have?

16 minutes ago, Sc00bs said:

Hi @Beachless

The non-essential/Aux port is basically the same as having a grid-tied inverter attached to that part of your DB Board. 

There is a CT clamp on the power line coming in from the grid which measures the power coming in and to ensure that the inverter is not feeding back into the grid unless you want to. There is always a small load being pulled from the grid so that any slight surges don't feed back.   

There are some settings in the inverter where you can set at what battery SOC level it will start sending power to the Aux/Non-essential port. You can obviously set it as low as you want.

In the above example, it will start sending power to the Aux port when you are making more than 500W of solar power and the battery is 100% charged. 

So say you have your pool pump connected to the port, the pump will run from grid power until such time as the battery is 100% charged, the inverter will then start powering the pump from solar power being generated. If the grid gets disconnected (load shedding for example) the pump will be disconnected and will stop working, your essential loads will however carry on being run from the inverter & battery. If the SOC of your battery drops below 95% the inverter will stop running the pump from solar power and the pump will carry on running from the grid (if present). 

You obviously do still have the option of connecting the pump to the normal/essential side of the inverter and it will run irrespective of the battery SOC and grid status. 

There is a pretty good video from the guys at Sunsynk explaining in a bit more depth

 

 

I'd be interested to know how this scenario would work with the Kodak.

14 minutes ago, MKRandburg said:

I'd be interested to know how this scenario would work with the Kodak.

As far as I know the Kodak doesn't have any option like that out the box as it is designed as an off-grid inverter. 

You basically have to decide whether you want a load to be powered by the inverter or not and it is then attached all of the time or not at all. 

It is however possible to get around thta, you can then disconnect the load manually, use an automated system like home assistant with some smart switches to disconnect (that is the way I do it with my Sunsynk) or alternatively you could have relays that disconnect the loads when the grid disconnects (I seem to recall someone on the powerforum doing this)

14 minutes ago, Sc00bs said:

As far as I know the Kodak doesn't have any option like that out the box as it is designed as an off-grid inverter. 

You basically have to decide whether you want a load to be powered by the inverter or not and it is then attached all of the time or not at all. 

It is however possible to get around thta, you can then disconnect the load manually, use an automated system like home assistant with some smart switches to disconnect (that is the way I do it with my Sunsynk) or alternatively you could have relays that disconnect the loads when the grid disconnects (I seem to recall someone on the powerforum doing this)

Just when I think I understand all this solar stuff... then I realise I don't. I think I get confused between thinking about how it will work with a battery, vs how it will work without a battery. 

Is this correct: Axpert/Kodak does not have an essentials - non-essentials split? It is done at the level of inverter vs grid (with a Kodak, I'll split my db and put the essentials on the inverter and non essentials will only be powered by Eskom). But with the SunSynk - the inverter is managing this split. But if I use something like Home Assistant, I can use that to manage the loads and put everything or almost everything onto the inverter. 

Am I getting it?

3 minutes ago, MKRandburg said:

correct: Axpert/Kodak does not have an essentials - non-essentials split? It is done at the level of inverter vs grid (with a Kodak, I'll split my db and put the essentials on the inverter and non essentials will only be powered by Eskom). But with the SunSynk - the inverter is managing this split. But if I use something like Home Assistant, I can use that to manage the loads and put everything or almost everything onto the inverter. 

I can't elaborate on home assistant but what I can shed light on is the correct installation of the Voltronics. You would need to create the essentials non essentials split. It's actually no big deal at all. We would split the DB. The new sub DB would have inverter loads. The old DB will keep whatever you want to stay on the grid. However, the use of CBI Astute allows you to place eg. A geyser on the inverter loads & can be turned off remotely to avoid an overload even though the Capacity is not enough for all the items on the inverter loads / Essential loads side. This is what I call staggering loads. You plan & schedule loads & you can be dynamic with them because it's in your pocket on your phone. 

2 minutes ago, Steve87 said:

I can't elaborate on home assistant but what I can shed light on is the correct installation of the Voltronics. You would need to create the essentials non essentials split. It's actually no big deal at all. We would split the DB. The new sub DB would have inverter loads. The old DB will keep whatever you want to stay on the grid. However, the use of CBI Astute allows you to place eg. A geyser on the inverter loads & can be turned off remotely to avoid an overload even though the Capacity is not enough for all the items on the inverter loads / Essential loads side. This is what I call staggering loads. You plan & schedule loads & you can be dynamic with them because it's in your pocket on your phone. 

@Steve87Are you able to power the "non-essential" parts of the DB, that are wired to the grid, from the inverter or do all the loads that you want to power from solar have to go through the inverter?

  

22 minutes ago, MKRandburg said:

Just when I think I understand all this solar stuff... then I realise I don't. I think I get confused between thinking about how it will work with a battery, vs how it will work without a battery. 

Is this correct: Axpert/Kodak does not have an essentials - non-essentials split? It is done at the level of inverter vs grid (with a Kodak, I'll split my db and put the essentials on the inverter and non essentials will only be powered by Eskom). But with the SunSynk - the inverter is managing this split. But if I use something like Home Assistant, I can use that to manage the loads and put everything or almost everything onto the inverter. 

Am I getting it?

Yes, maybe @Steve87 can confirm on the Axpert/Kodak side. 

The Sunsynk manages the split and is also able to send power to the items on the non-essential side of things when there is extra power and the grid is working. 

I don't believe that the Axpert/Kodak is able to do that, all items that you want to power from solar need to be wired through the inverter and will not automatically disconnect when there is load shedding.  If you however wire your non-essentials to the grid, there is no way of powering them from the inverter and they will use only grid power unless you use a 3rd party solution such as a relay or Smart Switch of some sorts to disconnect the loads. 

No, the inverter is off grid in nature. It cannot push against the Grid & has no CT. However, the new OG6.2 has 2 outputs similar to the Sunsynk & Victron Multiplus ll. One is a backup port & the other is a port that has power that blends with PV & battery but only when the Grid available similar to the Sunsynk & Victron. It's labelled AC output 1 & AC output 2 & is very similar to the Multiplus ll. The non Kodak name is the King ll or King Twin. It's already on sale also. 

One needs to also understand that the Voltronics machine is ODM & different markets around the world will have slightly different models. The MAXll is 10kW (OG10.0) in other markets it's 8kW. The Sunsynk, Deye & Sol-Ark are similar. Different names etc & also the Deye comes in a purely grid tied inverter only also. 

So-called hybrid, and/or off/on-grid inverters have evolved into a plethora of types that is quite bewildering .. and there are definite followers of the various brands, I guess driven by their experience and familiarity with them. Even the word hybrid has come to mean different things to different people. In an attempt to understand their inner workings I produced a few diagrams to describe these inner workings, based on studying the specifications and to a greater part, the experience of the many contributors to the forum.

As my understanding grew, the diagrams reduced to only two .. the Voltronic type, which is a pure off-grid inverter, and the Deye type, which is both off-grid and on-grid. The two types being differentiated by their firmware functions and the sophistication of the hardware blocks. 

Despite no mention in the documentation, the Deye seems to have a bypass function same-size the Growatt (had some experience with both of these inverters). I witnessed this by measuring the Deye inverter output before and after the grid input was killed. No doubt the inverter outputs the higher 245V here in the Overstrand rather than the programmed 230V, when On-grid. 

AFAIK, this bypass is permanent. In the event that the grid fails, the grid is disconnected and the AC/DC output inverter block (which is permanently connected, powers the output. There is a Victron diagram which shows this very well. 

I'm pretty sure they all feature an internal DC bus at a high voltage (as in the Growatt) that is required by the AC/DC inverter block to manufacture the 300Vpk voltage of the sinewave output. The bus is powered by:
1. the DC/DC MPPT converter(s)
2. the DC/DC bi-directional battery converter
3. the bi-directional AC/DC grid inverter. 

I guess the ability to blend power from the various blocks, is predominantly enabled by the firmware, not the hardware, as I imagined. This final stage is the bi-directional inverter .. the magic all happens within this block. This stage drives the AC load output, but when programmed appropriately, can drive the grid connection as well. The CT connected to the grid input is what enables the inverter to power devices on the grid (or non-essential load) side, without pushing back onto the grid itself.  The Aux port is merely a switched configuration of this inverter block.

Methinks that output inverter block, and the sophisticated firmware required to drive all the electronics is what you pay the big bucks for.

I write this in an attempt to promote a clearer understanding of the different inverters, and sincerely look forward to feedback, criticism, correction, or whatever, to this article. No doubt there are many vastly more experienced and knowledgeable folks out there who may have different opinions, or information to add.

Oh noooo .. there is an error in the first diagram. It should read "Voltronic type inverters" .. sorry 😬

On 2022/10/03 at 11:56 PM, BigC said:

Methinks that output inverter block, and the sophisticated firmware required to drive all the electronics is what you pay the big bucks for.

Yeah, that is not all. Look at the insides of both and you'll see. One of them will last a bit longer than the other. Another clue is if you look at the amount of threads with issues.

On 2022/10/03 at 11:56 PM, BigC said:

So-called hybrid, and/or off/on-grid inverters have evolved into a plethora of types that is quite bewildering .. and there are definite followers of the various brands, I guess driven by their experience and familiarity with them. Even the word hybrid has come to mean different things to different people. In an attempt to understand their inner workings I produced a few diagrams to describe these inner workings, based on studying the specifications and to a greater part, the experience of the many contributors to the forum.

As my understanding grew, the diagrams reduced to only two .. the Voltronic type, which is a pure off-grid inverter, and the Deye type, which is both off-grid and on-grid. The two types being differentiated by their firmware functions and the sophistication of the hardware blocks. 

Despite no mention in the documentation, the Deye seems to have a bypass function same-size the Growatt (had some experience with both of these inverters). I witnessed this by measuring the Deye inverter output before and after the grid input was killed. No doubt the inverter outputs the higher 245V here in the Overstrand rather than the programmed 230V, when On-grid. 

AFAIK, this bypass is permanent. In the event that the grid fails, the grid is disconnected and the AC/DC output inverter block (which is permanently connected, powers the output. There is a Victron diagram which shows this very well. 

I'm pretty sure they all feature an internal DC bus at a high voltage (as in the Growatt) that is required by the AC/DC inverter block to manufacture the 300Vpk voltage of the sinewave output. The bus is powered by:
1. the DC/DC MPPT converter(s)
2. the DC/DC bi-directional battery converter
3. the bi-directional AC/DC grid inverter. 

I guess the ability to blend power from the various blocks, is predominantly enabled by the firmware, not the hardware, as I imagined. This final stage is the bi-directional inverter .. the magic all happens within this block. This stage drives the AC load output, but when programmed appropriately, can drive the grid connection as well. The CT connected to the grid input is what enables the inverter to power devices on the grid (or non-essential load) side, without pushing back onto the grid itself.  The Aux port is merely a switched configuration of this inverter block.

Methinks that output inverter block, and the sophisticated firmware required to drive all the electronics is what you pay the big bucks for.

I write this in an attempt to promote a clearer understanding of the different inverters, and sincerely look forward to feedback, criticism, correction, or whatever, to this article. No doubt there are many vastly more experienced and knowledgeable folks out there who may have different opinions, or information to add.

So where does the Victron fit in

On 2022/10/11 at 9:56 AM, JohanG said:

So where does the Victron fit in

I have no experience of the Victron inverters but did see a diagram that suggested that one of the variants seemed to be both an on-grid and off-grid type, which would place it in the Deye/Sunsynk type. This comment applies to the Goodwe as well, and I am sure there are others. It would be useful to get some feedback from other more knowledgeable members .. there is so much to learn here.

Don't know if this has been linked to before on the forums or how impartial the rating team was, but found this article interesting:  https://versofy.com/blog/which-solar-inverter-is-best/

Which inverter is the best between these two ? Lux 5Kv or Sunsynk 5kva ?