Yesterday while i was busy with an install at a client i was asked by their neighbor if i can have a look and give my opinion on a battery fuse that was getting hot on their lfp battery installed 5 days ago. This is what i found, total botched install poor workmanship incorrect components, safety devices missing( spd's both on dc and ac side.) Solar panels facing south/west but north facing roof not used. 3kva RCT inverter 24v Esener 2.4kwh lfp battery 2 panels( not sure of size and make) no combiner box just normal enclosure with terminals. I have never seen such a poor install. But this is the big hazard that can cause a house to burn down!!!

Incorrect spec on battery cables and fuses. This is a 24v dc system hence double the battery current as 48v dc system. At 3000watts you are drawing 137 amps from the 24v battey and the fuse holder used rated for 32amps AC. Below picture the reason not to ever  use AC breakers or fuses in dc curcuits.

 

22 minutes ago, TaliaB said:

Yesterday while i was busy with an install at a client i was asked by their neighbor if i can have a look and give my opinion on a battery fuse that was getting hot on their lfp battery installed 5 days ago. This is what i found, total botched install poor workmanship incorrect components, safety devices missing( spd's both on dc and ac side.) Solar panels facing south/west but north facing roof not used. 3kva RCT inverter 24v Esener 2.4kwh lfp battery 2 panels( not sure of size and make) no combiner box just normal enclosure with terminals. I have never seen such a poor install. But this is the big hazard that can cause a house to burn down!!!

Incorrect spec on battery cables and fuses. This is a 24v dc system hence double the battery current as 48v dc system. At 3000watts you are drawing 137 amps from the 24v battey and the fuse holder used rated for 32amps AC. Below picture the reason not to ever  use AC breakers or fuses in dc curcuits.

 

Very interested to see you also come across these practises. 

Very sad to hear of a north roff not used???? 

A dear friend of mine had his 1st PV string installed with these fuse holders. Within a week at about 10A from the panels a fuse holder melted so that it could not be opened. Got it replaced and all OK. FF 4 months later he got a different installer. Installed a 2nd string to the 8kW Deye. Less than 24hrs later the 2nd string fuse holder had the same problem. Again melted and the bad smell. This was not at peak time but 15h00.

Neither of the great  installers did the N/E bond and when he mentioned it to them after I got him to test the N/E voltage and got 130V knew that it had to be done. One then came back to him and said no it is simple. We will just add a permanent link N/E. 

Another bad practise. When he switches off his previous main grid switch MCB his Deye and grid is off. Deye only works if the grid mains is on. 

So there must be thousands of such equipment in use waiting to burn. 

Edited August 2, 20233 yr by Scorp007

It's due to these kinds of bad practices that the regulation will be tightened as the risk factors far outway the benefits.

Part of the blame is on the ignorant owners too. How can you not do at least a basic research first? How do you allow someone to install panels facing south if you have space facing north? Some of these things are common sense. No electrical knowledge required. It is your house at the end of the day. 

Edited August 2, 20233 yr by PowerUser

20 minutes ago, PowerUser said:

Part of the blame is on the ignorant owners too. How can you not do at least a basic research first? How do you allow someone to install panels facing south if you have space facing north? Some of these things are common sense. No electrical knowledge required. It is your house at the end of the day.

Agreed.

I myself would like as much info as possible before dropping 10's of thousands into equipment.

But then again some people buy cars without even test driving them.

18 minutes ago, PowerUser said:

Part of the blame is on the ignorant owners too. How can you not do at least a basic research first? How do you allow someone to install panels facing south if you have space facing north? Some of these things are common sense. No electrical knowledge required. It is your house at the end of the day. 

Well, it might be common sense to us but not every end user is technical. Some people are 100% clueless in terms of solar and for all they know and care, panels should face upwards towards the sky (180 degree angle)

 

I personally always like to know and have at least a basic understanding before proceeding with something, but majority of people are not like that and majority (if not all) of the people on this forum are also not like that.

 

The person installing your solar should be an "expert" and it is their job to know these things and do things right, unfortunately we know this is not the case. Short cuts and a lack of care and knowledge are common place and I think the active members on this forum see it quite frequently with threads like this or other threads with people coming to the forum for advice and assistance as their installer was unable to help.

Even electricians who are trained and qualified take short cuts or get lazy and do not do a proper job. Use incorrectly sized cable, incorrect circuit breaker etc. etc.

The sad thing is that it is not limited to just solar or electrical works but just about everything - sprinkler systems, car services or repairs, home theatre installs, plumbing etc.

At work we have a rather new building, took occupation just over a year ago and the doors for our server rooms were meant to be fire rated doors and frames - although we got normal timber doors and frames without the fire rating plaques on them - so now that needs to be resolved.

 

I do not feel it is fair to put the blame on the end user. Not everyone wants to have to do research and learn about all these things to try ensure things are done correctly.

Although if you do not take it upon yourself to learn, then you are at risk of being taken for a ride.

4 minutes ago, PsyCLown said:

The person installing your solar should be an "expert"

Correct, and part of that being an "expert" is that they should be taking the time to explain the install to the customer, especially all safety aspects.
That layman who is clueless needs to be given at least the basics of safety for their system, anything less would be irresponsible.

Many installers do the install and then are gone onto the next install, leaving the poor client clueless on what to do if there should ever be some sort of fault or emergency.

1 hour ago, PowerUser said:

How do you allow someone to install panels facing south if you have space facing north

Just drive around and make a mental note of how many panels are actually installed facing southern direction.

2 hours ago, WannabeSolarSparky said:

Correct, and part of that being an "expert" is that they should be taking the time to explain the install to the customer, especially all safety aspects.
That layman who is clueless needs to be given at least the basics of safety for their system, anything less would be irresponsible.

Many installers do the install and then are gone onto the next install, leaving the poor client clueless on what to do if there should ever be some sort of fault or emergency.

Following onto this is that customers belief their installers as the specialists so how can a normal guy even dare to question what their installers say. My previous post the 1st installer also put 4 panels NNE and 2 NWN in series. I have to say these 6 performed well in summer but I stopped talking about PV with the friend as I know how the chat would end. 🤔🤔

In his stage 1 install he only mentioned how his 6x380W panels were installed on a 8kW Deye. Also only 1 x 5kWh Dyness battery. I mentioned this is very much un balanced. It did not take long to find out for himself. 

Having started my journey into the solar world close to a decade ago. I started exactly where that customer is. I did not have the opportunity to know anything. So I install on the Premise that I have been trusted with that person's hard earned cash & it's my mandate to get a safe & successful outcome. 

I don't leave that site until I am satisfied of the above. Many guys can do a magic quick install in a day. I'm sorry to say I'm not that brilliant. Residential & Commercial sites can throw a hell of a lot at you as an installer. One needs to roll with the punches but what I am certain about is that if I leave the site happy, usually that customer might not even know it because they will never get the experience of a poor installation. Its my hope that no1 ever does. But this is becoming common practice & sometimes we all get boxed as shady. Which is very sad. 

The massive uptake in solar has caused this problem. Everyone is an expert and can solve anything. To prevent this ask an installer for traceable references. Call these customers ask how was the installers post installation support. You wouldn't buy a luxury car without a service plan or good after sales support. Installations these days are in the same price category. 

Get it done right the first time round. 

Some interesting facts about this topic after investigation. Why did the fuse not blow hindering such a melt down. Well actually the fuse i retrieved from the melted fuse holder was blown( open curcuit) but it kept conducting? How can this be maybe carbon tracking due to dc flash over. Here is a good example not to use ac fuses in dc applications.

 

 

 

 

 

With damage/burning like this if people were around they should have been lead by their noses to the problem? 

33 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

With damage/burning like this if people were around they should have been lead by their noses to the problem? 

The system was installed in the garage if you wake up the house is on fire. I always encourage my clients to have a class D fire extinguisher at the battery installation.

 

23 minutes ago, TaliaB said:

The system was installed in the garage if you wake up the house is on fire. I always encourage my clients to have a class D fire extinguisher at the battery installation.

 

If you wake up in the morning there should be no or little current through the PV fuses? Does the melting not happen during the day time? 

I still battle to grasp this problem. If the fuses were of the right rating then I feel there could not flow enough current from the panel as the fuses should be of a higher amps than the Isc of the panels? 

Even if they were AC. Yes if AC then the carbon tracking does play a major part. 

Edited August 25, 20233 yr by Scorp007

1 minute ago, Scorp007 said:

If you wake up in the morning there should be no or little current through the PV fuses? Does the melting not happen during the day time? 

Yep agreed on pv but this fuse was used on 24v 2.56kwh Esener lfp battery.

1 hour ago, TaliaB said:

Yep agreed on pv but this fuse was used on 24v 2.56kwh Esener lfp battery.

Thanks it makes sense then. 

I Need to confess, I done a self install 15 to 20 years ago, and components were not readilly available on the shelf then. Working on 24 V. After 3 visits to Joburg for random billing and no ressolve. My decision was .

                   Then                                                                                             Now

AC 2,5mm stranded cable running 24V DC for lights                       replacing cable adding wifi switches

Aluminium T-Bolt channeling with self made clamp downs              No change still very tight down.

Car Fuse Bank as a combiner with 20 Amp Blade fuses                    Intend to change with lightning protect (????)

120A db Trip switch between battery and Inverter                             Battery disconnect dble               (At a stage I did use AC Isolates)

Car Jumper cable ends cut off and soldered                                     Proper DC Cable Crimped

But in desperation we do things to achieve security, I'll add my Layout to "Members installs".

BUT:   I did get my panels North facing

On driving around I have noticed some installs with panels 4 West 4 east, and seeing shadowing on both sides at given times. But they do have lovely tall trees, which they are not willing to even trim down yet alone cut out......

Thanks for sharing, whoever installed this did not understand or couldn't have cared, so pleased they asked you. 

Why people take such short cuts amazes me. 

1 hour ago, Colin Says said:

I Need to confess, I done a self install 15 to 20 years ago, and components were not readilly available on the shelf then. Working on 24 V. After 3 visits to Joburg for random billing and no ressolve. My decision was .

                   Then                                                                                             Now

AC 2,5mm stranded cable running 24V DC for lights                       replacing cable adding wifi switches

Aluminium T-Bolt channeling with self made clamp downs              No change still very tight down.

Car Fuse Bank as a combiner with 20 Amp Blade fuses                    Intend to change with lightning protect (????)

120A db Trip switch between battery and Inverter                             Battery disconnect dble               (At a stage I did use AC Isolates)

Car Jumper cable ends cut off and soldered                                     Proper DC Cable Crimped

But in desperation we do things to achieve security, I'll add my Layout to "Members installs".

BUT:   I did get my panels North facing

On driving around I have noticed some installs with panels 4 West 4 east, and seeing shadowing on both sides at given times. But they do have lovely tall trees, which they are not willing to even trim down yet alone cut out......

Im finding the Tigo TS04 optimisers are giving me good ouput with several different aspects, see my banner pic, also high trees which I love, may help someone. 

While we do live in a city with various trees and shrubs and Roses, we gotta look back and appreciate that JHB is the biggest urban forest that we/ancestors have created for shade and wind breakers. In youre banner pic shows trees going up to roof height. but not showing the taller ones shadowing on youre panels 80 % maybe. Were we right then to plant trees, as it once was grassland. Or are we right now to utilise the sun. ? Its a big, big thing as to growing vegetables hydroponically, and growing vertically.

I made a decision going solar, and I live on one of those Jacaranda streets. Having that and a Lovely Palm decided Solar. And was lucky enough to cut my Jacaranda before it become a heritage/protected tree. I dont have to clean up after it any more. My plum tree now fruits.

Not sure by "might help someone" 

Oxygen? Plants use it ? And give it ? Walk into a room of a herbal grower. Its hard to breathe after half an hour.

So is the Tigo TS04 optimiser realy necessary.?.