Hi All,

I am at a serious loss with COJ and JHB water, I have had my Solar installed in March 2023 and my borehole in May 2023. My bill has just come through and I have estimated readings for both Electricity and Water. I switched to prepaid in June. I have attached my bills and need some guidance before I lose my mind. Why are these bills so damn high? 

9k July

5k June
 

 

I use the sun during the day and use batteries at night….where are they getting these figures from? So before I go and invoke even more frustration at these buildings I need some advice 

56 minutes ago, Raiden2912 said:

.where are they getting these figures from?

How does that compare to your own readings from the inverter? Are you sure that you are not maybe exporting and getting billed for the export as consumption?

I'm in Pretoria, I take a picture every month of the meters and I submit the readings to the website. This gives me a predictable bill.

My bill used to be R3200 p/m. After installing the heatpump I saved about R300 p/m and with my solar system (providing most of my consumption) my bill averages around R2000. 

 

Estimated readings are averaged out based on historical consumption (prior PV and borehole)...submit actual readings (read your meter) at the correct time of month, that way CoJ won't just estimate the consumption...

Here is readings from the inverter 

I don’t unfortunately take pictures every month but I think this now will prompt that action. We can’t export to the grid in my area. 
 

Looks like I need to and visit them as they saying estimated readings. 

54 minutes ago, iiznh said:

How does that compare to your own readings from the inverter? Are you sure that you are not maybe exporting and getting billed for the export as consumption?

I'm in Pretoria, I take a picture every month of the meters and I submit the readings to the website. This gives me a predictable bill.

My bill used to be R3200 p/m. After installing the heatpump I saved about R300 p/m and with my solar system (providing most of my consumption) my bill averages around R2000. 

 

I used to do the same but just find the online always go through to their system where emails at times were missed. 

This is one system that works very well. 

Some years ago when they estimated I got a regular situation that the 3rd month when corrected I had a negative number. 

Also I found our munic suddenly are reading the actual meter every month for the last 4 months. 

Edited August 15, 20233 yr by Scorp007

31 minutes ago, Raiden2912 said:

I don’t unfortunately take pictures every month but I think this now will prompt that action.

Yes this is a good way to have proof of the actual readings. 

The first 5 months of solar they disregarded my readings and kept on estimating. After a couple of actual readings and having 0 bills, this was corrected and now I do not get "estimated" when I only consumed 5-15 units per month.

Thank you all.

so what’s the best way to fight this battle? 

If you have a prepaid meter then they are supposed to close your electricity account. Give them a call and ask for a reference number

I have a prepaid meter. But apparently according to other threads you have both for a couple of months before they close it.

1 hour ago, Raiden2912 said:

I don’t unfortunately take pictures every month but I think this now will prompt that action.

COJ account holders can submit their own readings (photos of the actual meter, with the serial number visible) for both water and electricity. You shouldn't need to do the latter.

1 hour ago, Raiden2912 said:

We can’t export to the grid in my area. 

That doesn't mean that you system isn't doing it. If, because of a setting, you are exporting then you will probably get charged for that as the meter can't see which way the power is flowing. But the 2nd bill you show has an estimated reading, so we don't know if this (inadvertent export) is happening or not. R1100 on the first bill seems to be the cost of the conversion to pre-paid.

I remember when I switched to pre-paid I had two expensive months because the post-paid account has to be paid up and reconciled before they can close it. Then the third month I got a credit for electricity, and thereafter the word "electricity" hasn't appeared on my account.

So I'd say hang in there, but also keep a close watch. I converted to pre-paid about 7 years ago now, and the running of the City has declined since then.

I have been taking my own water meter readings, so I know that the City's readings are accurate. And I've declared war on water wastage in my house, and the last two months I have come in under the 6kL that the City gives you for free and I've only paid for sewage and for service fees. So I don't think they are loading bills.(and my lawn looks like something that looks awful).

How is the grid voltage in your area? I ask because where I live folks started complaining about two things about the same time.
1) Low grid voltage. I was sometimes measuring low 170s at my house.
2) Prepaid running down much more quickly.

So I suspect that the meters the City uses don't measure POWER, but CURRENT.

I know it's frustrating, but work through the channels. You are not the only person going through this, many of your neighbours have similar frustrations. Work with and help your elected representative.

Example: In my street I checked with other neighbours. Several reported low voltage (and in fact most digitial meters display the voltage). We measured over a period of two or three weeks. Five of us logged tickets with City Power. The councillor was asking for a list of reference numbers for low voltage that she could take to City Power and asked that we have records to support the complaint. All  over the suburb people were moaning and complaining on whatsapp and FaceBook, but the areas where records were kept, where complaints were logged, and all the data collated and sent to the councillor in a spreadsheet got their voltage back up. City Power did act, and the data helped them identify which nodes needed attention. Now I hardly ever see less than 220 and never under 210. Other folks are still moaning and complaining on whatsapp and Facebook.
 

3 hours ago, Bobster. said:

 

So I suspect that the meters the City uses don't measure POWER, but CURRENT.


 

This is not something that city power can specify and also no power meter works this way. 

Further all meter used for selling power have to adhere to a very high accuracy. 

On average it's an urban legend that a mixed house load will draw more amps when the voltage drops to compensate. 

All Resistive loads like geyser and stove heating elements will draw less amps if the voltage is reduced. 

Most if not all modern power supplies do not matter if the voltage is low and does a conversion to provide the correct output value. 

This leaves only induction motors that can draw more amps to provide the same power output. Just in layman's terms. 

Your electricity reading period for Jul to Aug, as below, is over a 38-day period, not just a month, so you couldn't compare that directly to the inverter's monthly readings.

It does show a jump in daily average consumption to 34.669kWh, up from under 20kWh a month or so before. Could that be due to increased Winter consumption? Export through the meter counted as usage?

Anyway, even if the usage is correct, it's clear here that you didn't get the benefit of the inclining block tariff re-setting to Step1 at the end of the month. They kept on billing the extra days at Step2 and even Step3 rates within the 38-day period. You could try to argue that down.

There may be more issues at play, but that's the most obvious for now.

8 hours ago, Raiden2912 said:

I have had my Solar installed in March 2023 and my borehole in May 2023. My bill has just come through and I have estimated readings for both Electricity and Water. I switched to prepaid in June.

@Raiden2912 if I may, you are in a position to answer a question that has come up here before: What is the process for convering to pre-paid after you have had solar installed? Did you declare to CP that you had solar? Was there an inspection? What paperwork had to be provided?

And did they let you go onto actual pre-paid, as in you have to buy vouchers and load them onto the meter, or did they insist that you switch to the reseller's tariff?

10 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

This is not something that city power can specify and also no power meter works this way. 

Further all meter used for selling power have to adhere to a very high accuracy. 

On average it's an urban legend that a mixed house load will draw more amps when the voltage drops to compensate. 

All Resistive loads like geyser and stove heating elements will draw less amps if the voltage is reduced. 

But ohms law? OK... that's a DC law, but isn't it a general princple that P = V * I?

10 minutes ago, Scorp007 said:

Most if not all modern power supplies do not matter if the voltage is low and does a conversion to provide the correct output value. 

This leaves only induction motors that can draw more amps to provide the same power output. Just in layman's terms. 

Thanks.

At least one experienced electrician in this neck of the woods believes that the meters measure current and not actual power (and also made the same point as you: That this is down to manufacture and not to City Power). And the citizens are suggesting that City Power are manipulating the meters remotely. So I'm looking for a rational explantion.

The reported increased consumption did start about the same time as the tariffs increased, so I did say to people that looking at rands and cents isn't a useful measure, we need to look at units.

Could it be that geysers need to run for longer to get up to temperature? There were reports about pool pumps making funny noises, and that was my experience too.

I'm working on the assumption that there is something genuinely up, and not that it's that people have suddenly started checking the billing and got a surprise at how much stuff costs. I have a pre-paid meter, but my usage of grid electricity is so low that this fluctuation would cost me hardly anything, but I did notice a drop off when the voltage in my street was corrected. That could be just coincidence, could be proof, or it could be (my suspicion) that the constant 170 to 190 V was driving my inverter crazy.

Edited August 15, 20233 yr by Bobster.

27 minutes ago, Bobster. said:

But ohms law? OK... that's a DC law, but isn't it a general princple that P = V * I?

Thanks

Your formula is correct. You can even use P=I^2xR or P=V^2/R. All gives the same result. Only R remains the same. With reduced voltage you will see reduced power and because the resistance cannot change you find reduced current. Thus you have 2 values decreasing the power used. 

If you Google "browning" it will be explained. Deliberate or  unintentional.

Edited August 15, 20233 yr by Scorp007

Hi @Raiden2912, 

Sorry to harp on about this. But you are in a position to answer a question that has come up several times on this forum: What is the process with COJ if you already have solar and want to convert to pre-paid?

Do you have to declare in the paperwork that you have solar? Do you have to get any approval from the City? Do they offer you a chance to switch to the reseller's tariff? Do they ask if you are going to export or not?

I'm sure any detail you can give would be appreciated.

On 2023/08/15 at 6:31 AM, Raiden2912 said:

Hi All,

I am at a serious loss with COJ and JHB water, I have had my Solar installed in March 2023 and my borehole in May 2023. My bill has just come through and I have estimated readings for both Electricity and Water. I switched to prepaid in June. I have attached my bills and need some guidance before I lose my mind. Why are these bills so damn high? 

9k July

5k June

When I changed to pre-paid (13 year's back) I had to go to CoJ in Reuven and hand in the installation form from the CoJ electrician showing that a pre-paid meter had been installed.
Took a few visits to Reuven for CoJ accounts to remove the the post-paid electricity meter from my account.

The form had the last reading and I also had photos of the old-post paid meter with the last reading.

18 hours ago, Bobster. said:

Hi @Raiden2912, 

Sorry to harp on about this. But you are in a position to answer a question that has come up several times on this forum: What is the process with COJ if you already have solar and want to convert to pre-paid?

Do you have to declare in the paperwork that you have solar? Do you have to get any approval from the City? Do they offer you a chance to switch to the reseller's tariff? Do they ask if you are going to export or not?

I'm sure any detail you can give would be appreciated.

hey Bobster, 

the sort answer to all of this is No.

didn’t declare anything 

when they came to install prepaid they didn’t ask about solar, I wasn’t at home at the time and the wife was here so they didn’t ask her any questions.

Export - No

no resellers tariff

 

38 minutes ago, Raiden2912 said:

hey Bobster, 

the sort answer to all of this is No.

didn’t declare anything 

when they came to install prepaid they didn’t ask about solar, I wasn’t at home at the time and the wife was here so they didn’t ask her any questions.

Export - No

no resellers tariff

 

Thanks.

It follows that they didn't offer the resellers tariff because they didn't know about the solar.

I hope your bill settles down soon.

@Bobster. My PP meter was installed 1 Aug. I did not include anything about solar on my application as I did it many months ago (long story) and I did not have it at that time. By the time they came out to finalise my conversion, my solar installation was complete and I'd been been running it for about 2 months. My bill I received on 4 Aug included usage for July till 1 Aug (minimal due to solar).  I was not at home when they came to install but they did ask my wife if we had solar to which she replied yes and that was that.

Hopefully this means it is a "clean" switchover and with next month's bill I'll be 100% on prepaid.

Update - Finally my COJ account has been sorted, no electricity section on my bill and I am in a negative balance with COJ.😁 I also have started uploading my water bill (I have borehole with Jojo) online….no more estimated readings. 👏🏽👏🏽

Edited October 16, 20232 yr by Raiden2912